Jar_Ek wrote: »

Compared to other racial passives, Imperials are too strong. However my preference would be for other racial passives to be bought up to the same level, or at least nearly so.

Also your poll was really badly phrased, and should have had option 3. to bring other races passives in line with Imperial.

Yes, believe me, that has already been said countless times. Starting to get quite annoyed with people that don't read the thread before they contribute, honestly.

Lionxoft wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Lionxoft wrote: »

12%hp + 10% stam

Disclaimer: This post may be completely accurate, but it is in no way meant to offend anyone, sarcasm my dear brethren. Sarcasm.

Okay, okay... I'll play along with you for a moment, let us say the developers at Zenimax decide to "balance" Imperials to be more on par with the other racial passives okay? So we downgrade the +12% Health to +10%, and the +10% Stamina to +9%, then the racial will mimic the Altmer racial in terms of percentages. (+10% Maximum Magicka and +9% Magicka Recovery, for those of you that don't know what the Altmer racials are.) Still with me? Good. Good. Prepare for simple math.


Imperial with 3,000 Health and 2,000 Stamina.

Imperial Base Health = 2,640
Base Health + Racial = 3,000
Base Health + "Balanced" Racial = 2,904

Imperial Base Stamina = 1,800
Base Stamina + Racial = 2,000
Base Stamina + "Balanced" Racial = 1,962

Now, as a civilized, logical Human being that you are, you're going to tell me that a ninety-six, and thirty-eight point difference is worth the effort that it would take the developers? It's a joke, this entire thread, is a joke. If you're so worried about Imperials having an extra two or three percent, then bring the other classes on par with them. As I've said before, and will say again, hell I'll probably just add it into my signature, "Don't balance, what isn't unbalanced."

Now that the math has been provided, I can almost certainly, no I certainly can guarantee you that no skill in this game will cost ninety-six Health or thirty-eight Stamina at maximum rank, I won't do the further math, because it's too much work. But that extra thirty-eight Stamina probably saves the Imperial... Maybe.. Maybe one blocked attack every couple of minutes. Also, now that the math has been provided, you can probably tell Panda is a little irritated, due to being intoxicated and simply mind-blown. Oh and if the amount of sarcasm in this post offends you, I'm terribly sorry, but for once, out of the three hundred comments that I have posted in this forum, for once. I have provided cold, hard, inevitable, fact.

Fact. That the effort, to balance the Imperial class. Is an enormous waste of every single Elder Scrolls Online player brain cells' energy. Please, for the love of all that is no longer holy in this no longer good Earth, close this thread. Someone. Anyone. The statements have been made, the poll has been voted in, the waffles have been toasted, and the votes are in people. The votes are in, and 78% of us, think otherwise
Mr. @Lionxoft

You can argue that this decision to lower the percentages isn't enough of a balance, well to that, I can identify that you my dear sir, or madam, are simply asking for everything and everyone to be nerfed. Also just something I'd thought I'd mention, look at the Imperial passives, then go look at the Bosmer. +21% Stamina Regeneration seems a bit overpowered, we should nerf that too!!!

Conclusion:

So that short essay was just because I pointed out that you forgot the 10% stamina attribute modifier? Sorry but I didn't mean to provoke an emotional and/or sarcastic response. Let me ask you how you feel about Khajiit passives in comparison? Maybe that will lighten your mood a bit.

Like I've said before. Imperial is the most well rounded race in the game. I personally think it's more powerful than the other races in the game when it comes to pure attributes and the flexibility that they provide. Also, soft caps will be no more in 1.6 as you already know which will shine some more light on how far the gap can become.

Oh, did I mention to ask how you felt about Khajiits?

One after thought. Do you play as an Imperial and why did you choose to play as one? Just curious.

My main was an Altmer, because pointy-ear fetish.
I made my Dragonknight an Imperial for RP purposes, but I never used him for RP.. So...

As for Khajiit, they have +30% health regeneration in combat, weapon critical, and a sneak buff... Not bad, not awesome. They'll always be the fluffy wuffy kittens that I know and love.

Those who voted yes(took the blue pill) are a bunch of nerf bullies.


....and this thread is stupid.

MorHawk wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Okay, so I get that the constant 'nerf' threads are a pain, I really should have avoided the N word, but really, is everyone actually okay with one race having double the max stat bonuses in a game with no softcaps? If something does legitimately need nerfing, then what's the issue with calling for it?

I think you are being alarmist and inaccurate and this entire thread is a riot trying to happen for no good reason. You asked for my opinion, and you got it.

The "only" race with "double the stat bonus?" How about Redguards? Max Stamina AND Stamina Regen. That's two stats. How about Dark Elf? Max Stamina AND max Magicka. Also, the other racials are hardly trivial. Wood Elves now have a massive advantage in Stamina Regen, which IS a thing as Stamina builds are now much stronger.

I really think some people just like to cry nerf for the sake of it, whether they have thought through their argument or not.

Don't...don't do that bud. Don't do the 'have you thought this through' patronizing crap, especially when you haven't read my post properly. I said "double the max stat bonuses". Important word there you clearly missed. Everyone else gets either gets 3-10% to one stat max, or in the case of Dunmer/Orsimer, 6% to two, so 12%. Hence, 22% total is essentially double what anyone else gets.

Yes, as you say, there are various bonuses to regens that other races get to counter-act this, and honestly I view those as far more valuable. Quite happy for example with my 30% health regen on my Orc, and that 21% stam regen on Bosmer...man, I think I'd swap everything the Orcs get for that bad boy. Point is though, it's quite the finger in the eye of other races that get neither.

You keep stating Dunmer receive 6% magicka, when that is patently false. Dunmer receive 9% magicka and 6% stamina. Based purely on attribute raises yes they have '15%' and Imperials have '22%'. You know what though? Imperials don't have Flame resistance that could let you sit in a lava flow, or 7% bonus to Flame damage either.

You seem to be one of those people who have tunnel vision about what attributes 'count' and which ones don't. If everyone starts having massive boosts to their attributes to be brought in line with the Imperial, I certainly hope the Imperial gets something cool to still remain equivalent. I can understand why people would find Khajiit a little underperforming, between a very small weapon critical bonus, a health regen 30% bonus (which is actually a pretty good trait), and a stealth damage radius/damage bonus. The Khajiit has never seemed as good to me as the Bosmer, in large part because I actually highly value the Poison/Disease resistance. I think until people realize that those resistance traits are actually pretty good, they'll keep feeling like their race is weak. I for one actually really like my Argonian for instance. I do think the new improved Bosmer is probably better, but I do like the Argonian, and Argonian is often claimed to be one of the 'worst races'. The Race is something you have to build around yes, but try to be creative, and think of these traits as enchantments. If you look at them like permanent enchantments you might change your mind about how this works. If you feel the Poison/Disease resistance trait, or Flame Resistance Trait, or whatever trait is worthless, then don't use that race if it bothers you so bad.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

You keep stating Dunmer receive 6% magicka, when that is patently false. Dunmer receive 9% magicka and 6% stamina. Based purely on attribute raises yes they have '15%' and Imperials have '22%'. You know what though? Imperials don't have Flame resistance that could let you sit in a lava flow, or 7% bonus to Flame damage either.

I literally just created a template character on PTS to confirm that before I typed it. Perhaps you'd like a screenshot?

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

You seem to be one of those people who have tunnel vision about what attributes 'count' and which ones don't. If everyone starts having massive boosts to their attributes to be brought in line with the Imperial, I certainly hope the Imperial gets something cool to still remain equivalent. I can understand why people would find Khajiit a little underperforming, between a very small weapon critical bonus, a health regen 30% bonus (which is actually a pretty good trait), and a stealth damage radius/damage bonus. The Khajiit has never seemed as good to me as the Bosmer, in large part because I actually highly value the Poison/Disease resistance. I think until people realize that those resistance traits are actually pretty good, they'll keep feeling like their race is weak. I for one actually really like my Argonian for instance. I do think the new improved Bosmer is probably better, but I do like the Argonian, and Argonian is often claimed to be one of the 'worst races'. The Race is something you have to build around yes, but try to be creative, and think of these traits as enchantments. If you look at them like permanent enchantments you might change your mind about how this works. If you feel the Poison/Disease resistance trait, or Flame Resistance Trait, or whatever trait is worthless, then don't use that race if it bothers you so bad.

That was a lot of words to say "I want Imperials to stay P2W because I paid money for them".

Morshire wrote: »

@MorHawk - Okay, so you took a beating here. Let me to "answer" the question as I see it. The Imperial package cost more, so it gave more than simply buying the game. Taking that advantage away, be it through nerf or boosting of the other races would be wrong. IMO, because people paid extra for the advantage. Is it P2W - form your own opinion. Are Imperials better, hope so, cause they cost more. Are they too OP? Nope. For every race, or player, there is one better. I think it should just be left alone. Trying to make everything "equal", we could go to the extreme and say we should all be one race, play one style. Seriously, that would be the only way to be "balanced", and that would still fail cause players make the characters. No way to balance that aspect.

Again, justifying P2W because you paid money to have them. I can't speak for ZOS's intentions, but if they really did intentionally sell the Imperial race as better than other races rather than simply as another racial option to choose from, as does seem possible, then that's several kinds of screwed up.

Wish there were a third option. "Unbalanced, leave imperial alone, buff the ones that fall short."

I do have to agree, this should probably be nixed at this point, if only for the hostility currently getting hurled around. Everyone's said their piece, all that's left to do now is see where the chips fall after 1.6 lands, and then I'll make another poll to ascertain if racials are perceived as balanced. Except properly this time, with absolutely no mention of the dreaded N word.

Do racials need balancing? yes
Do they need nerfing? no

@MorHawk I know I came off a bit harsh in my last post, but I was fairly upset with how condescending you were toward me when you were both wrong and I had explained myself before. What made it worse is that you were taking what I said out of context and showed what had the face of proof but was in fact not proof. I bear you no ill will, I just think you are misinformed and perhaps passionate though wrong.

Imperial as I see it is just a good 'all around' type race. In a game where up until very recently magic was king, the Imperial has just been 'good' or 'okay' depending upon what role you took. Admittedly the Stamina bonuses they receive would be good for a stamina build, though other races probably fill this niche better. The health bonus is nice for tanking as well, but when compared to other tanky races I wouldn't assume the Imperial is any better. Consider for a moment that a Nord has 30% Health Regeneration bonus (which is always on), 3% Max health, and 6% Damage Reduction. Damage reduction is a really powerful trait that no one else in the game has. When this trait was armor, it was an admittedly weak trait. Once it became damage reduction I personally feel this really made Nords shine. All three of these traits together really make Nords great tank characters, and you could easily look at the Cold Resistance trait as a 'throwaway'. It is a strong trait though and I think it is a fault of the devs that they have not made Cold Damage more compelling to use in the game. As I have stated in many threads before, they really should have released a class with Cold damage or included it in other skill lines. The only way to do cold damage in the game is via Enchantment or Frost Staff skill lines currently. This is more a flaw in design and not the race itself. As I've stated before, most races have a 'throwaway' or 'fun' trait. Imperial 'fun' trait is Red Diamond, which as someone has stated earlier in this thread is statistically insignificant even if you are fighting purely as a melee fighter.

Argonians are a pretty interesting race. When all passives are filled, an Argonian receives a strong poison/disease resistance, 3% Maximum Health, 6% bonus to healing received, 15% more effective potions, and a 50% bonus to swim speed. I think this race probably deserves better numbers for the potion effectiveness but that's about it. The bonus swim speed is fluff/fun which most races seem to have one passive for. Bonus healing received is actually pretty strong, and while it might not be as effective for some classes (Like Sorcerer) I wouldn't consider a 6% bonus to healing a waste. Remember this bonus will apply to heals you can apply yourself such as Green Dragon Blood, Crit Surge, Mutagen, Breath of Life, Siphon health, Sap Essence, etc. These heals also include those sent by team members. I have actually known quite a few strong Argonians out there, so I'm not convinced they are so weak.

What races do I think need fixing? Redguard and Khajiit. I'm honestly not sure what to do about the Khajiit, but I think the change should probably be with their 6% bonus to melee Criticals. Redguard the issue is more than they pile stamina on top of stamina, and honestly the Bosmer ends up more or less equal (now that they receive 21% stamina regen in 1.6). On top of this, the Redguard has always had at the least poison resistance but usually it has had both poison and disease resistance. If I changed one thing about the Redguard, I would give them the Poison/Disease resistance attribute that argonians and bosmer get instead of what is currently titled 'Adrenaline Rush', which would also have the added effect of giving them a +3% bonus to health as well. Unfortunately, I suspect a lot of people have grown to like the stamina return of Adrenaline Rush so this might not be the most popular move, but it is something I've always felt they should make.

Races like Dunmer, Breton, Altmer are clearly powerful to most people for the magic (and other) roles. Bosmer is also very well rounded for the sneak attack type character. For clarity here, I'm going to put my cards on the table. I play a V14 Imperial Templar Tank, a V14 Argonian Nightblade, a V14 Dunmer Dragonknight, and a V4 Altmer Sorcerer. I also have a Breton Sorc, a Nord Dk, a Dunmer Sorc, and an Orc NB in the 20-30's range. In all of that time the one thing I've noticed is that each character gives you a different direction to build and a different niche to follow. I'm finding all those combinations pretty compelling so far. Though I must admit I was a little crestfallen when I found out that the Ambush skill on my Orc is not considered a charge attack, I simply chose a different skill to charge on enemies with like the 2Hander Crit charge.

MorHawk wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Aneima wrote: »

Those who voted yes(took the blue pill) are a bunch of nerf bullies.


....and this thread is stupid.

Not stupid, insightful, but not stupid... Either way, can we close it now? @ZOS_GinaBruno pweeeeeaaaaaassssseeeeee?

Close it because you disagree? Nice attitude. Go sit in a corner and think about why that's wrong. Give it a sec, it'll come to you.

Close it because it's been open long enough and the facts are in, Imperials aren't unbalanced according to the poll. So deal with it, or try to bump the thread another week and get more votes. However, I'm more inclined to close it because you're a rather rude person, to both me, and Dodgehopper.

MorHawk wrote: »

Simple question, you all know the history. No softcaps, and about to be opened up to the public, so after this the crying over nerfs would be exponentially greater. If this is broken, it needs to be fixed, and now.

Consider that those who have Imperial paid $20 more for it. Even if you said the horse was worth $15 of that, they are still paying money. In my opinion you are requesting that people who paid more money for their game be punished for it.

Imperials have certainly been popular in the past meta for obvious reasons. Now that DK, blocking and other things are being raked in we'll have to see how it goes.

I killed plenty of Imperial DK as Bosmer NB over the months, so I really wonder how imbalanced it really is. Or maybe everyone is just rolling fotm with no actual clue how to play? Dont believe that somehow.