Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Lorkhan · January 2015

yeah, i think this xp boost is unnecessary too....

rawne1980b16_ESO · January 2015

People have different definitions of what pay to win actually is.

I don't think boosts are pay to win because everyone will get to the same level eventually, there is no "win" just a temporary advantage in level.

I consider pay to win when an item is bought in the cash shop that is better than any in game item and there is no other way to get that item but through the cash shop.

People constantly tell me Warframe is pay to win yet I have every single frame and 40+ weapons and i've never paid a single penny. I made some plat in game selling prime parts to buy slot unlocks. I've never used any plat to buy a weapon or frame, i've crafted them all.

But some people think any advantage, even a temporary one, is pay to win. I'll never agree with them but their opinion is just as valid as my own and if it causes concern for one person then it will likely cause concern to others.

That being said they should probably be careful about what they put in the cash shop.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

easy solution, boost can only be used level 1-50, cant get champ points, but can grind alts up extra quick. that would be great in fact.

Why would they do that?
The bulk of our PvE grind time will always be above lvl 50. I they want to sell boosts, they have to affect the high endplayers that are getting bored of their grind.

I hate the concept of boosters and cash shops, but your solution isn't possible.
Remember they have to replace $15 per month per player. They need every way they can to make people want to buy things.

actually with the removal of the vet system, if they follow through, means you are completely wrong.
your at endgame at 50, grind over; then hope your not noob and can play with skill. even better if you have been playing and have champion points and gear from your main.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · January 2015

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

easy solution, boost can only be used level 1-50, cant get champ points, but can grind alts up extra quick. that would be great in fact.

Why would they do that?
The bulk of our PvE grind time will always be above lvl 50. I they want to sell boosts, they have to affect the high endplayers that are getting bored of their grind.

I hate the concept of boosters and cash shops, but your solution isn't possible.
Remember they have to replace $15 per month per player. They need every way they can to make people want to buy things.

actually with the removal of the vet system, if they follow through, means you are completely wrong.
your at endgame at 50, grind over; then hope your not noob and can play with skill. even better if you have been playing and have champion points and gear from your main.

Except that champion points are earned with xp and you have at least 900h of it even using enlightment. So yeah, VR disapears, but a new grind is there to replace it.

And, well, VR isn't gone until 1.7 and that will just not happen until a long time after console release. So technically, there will be 2 grinds worth boosting for at least a few months.

eisberg · January 2015

...

eisberg · January 2015

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Not entirely P2W yet. Supposedly, Premium Plus only gives %10 XP bonus. Now, you can get %10 XP bonus by simply joining a group. By grouping with friends you will be on the same level as Premium Plus member in terms of XP bonus.

And what about premium players that play in group?
Whata about players that play grouped, have bought the edition with the rings of mara, pay a subscription and have bought booster in the shop?

Not entirely

XP boosts are not P2W. XP boosts do not obstruct fairness because there is no real advantage besides convenience. Unless there is an Achievement that rewards World First max Level something.

It is though.
If you were to start playing at the same time than another player and you both spend as much time on the game. If you have paid for boosts and a subscription and he hasn't, when you meet in PvP your character is more than 10% stronger than his.

And I say more than 10% because this is a gap that expands over time.
As you end up overleveling the content, which is easy to do in ESO, you'll be able to complete it much faster for the same rewards. So the xp gained by quests comes in more often and it will be boosted so you'll gain more.

And it will continue with the champion point system for at least 900 hours.
You'll have a power gap that not only is easier to maintain but will keep on widening as you both play.

And that's just for xp boosters. gold boosters enable you to buy better gear which also equates to more power.

And that doesn't only apply to PvP but in trials leaderboards. A group that has paid all along will succeed harder content earlier and will gain the better gear sooner, which adds up to their momentum.

Boosters are p2w, even if it is harder to notice.

Speaking from experience, nobody will ever notice anything with a 10% boost. Won't effect PvP in win vs loss ratio, even if they choose to go from subscriber to free player or vice versa, they will not see any difference in their average win vs loss ratio. In PvE it doesn't even matter.

eisberg · January 2015

WebBull wrote: »

Buying DLC = Better Gear= Paying for Advantage

Under the new scenario, anything that is not purely cosmetic you are technically paying for an advantage.

Then any MMO that had an expansion pack, even if it was a subscription game would be Pay to Win?

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · January 2015

I really dont care about exp boost, the gap to get to endgame is killing this game. as long as there is no pay to win endgame items, Im all for getting more players able to compete and play endgame.

Celless · January 2015

Boosters, to me, are a time saving convenience and not a pay-to-win mechanic.

Pay-to-win, in my opinion, constitutes things like:
* Increase maximum number of Champion Points
* Buy additional attribute points for Health, Stamina, and Magicka
* Buy a potion that restores Ultimate to 100% and is not available any other means in-game
* Buy a penguin mount that shoots rainbows from its ass and decapitates anyone it rides by in a sparkly unsexy mess

ashlee17 · February 2015

xp boost potions now confirmed = pay for advantage.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Realize that people have been playing for a year.
When those people copy to console, it would take months to accomplish the equivalent for a new player.

PC and console (new players) should have many opportunities to catch up at a reasonable pace. It's not pay to win as exp doesn't cause anyone to be better or gain advantages. This is an opportunity for new players to balance the time advantage that senior accounts may have at launch of TESO Tamriel Unlimited on PC, MAC and both consoles.

This is no different than the ring of Mara. But that benefit stops at 50. Nothing exists to assist in VR levels which should have been removed by now.

ShadowDisciple · February 2015

This community is bunch of whiners and conformists...

Half of you are screaming p2w p2w just cuz you heard a few saying it...

If u call 10% p2w..then grab a calculator and see how much time will you save

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Troneon · February 2015

Its not Pay 2 Win,

It's Pay 2 Skip Ahead. You see it in every MMO now....

Not saying it's a good thing or anything but it's not Pay 2 Win.

Personally I think you must be having a lot of left over income to waste money on xp crap lol Such a waste lol There are like a zillion better things in life to spend spare money on I can think of off the top of my head.

ashlee17 · February 2015

Rings of Mara already stack with the subscription bonus which will possibly stack again with whatever the future potions xp boost will be. To me it's a worrying trend.

reften · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

they should only work to help get to V14, but not after. ARG!!! So mad...

reften · February 2015

kongkim wrote: »

Boosters is not P2W, as all can get there without any big problems.
If there was items that gave an advantage that made pvp or pve easier that you could only get from the shop that would be P2W. But there is not, so all fine.

wrong wrong wrong. If you have 10 more CPs than I, it's exactly like having better equipment. If I play on average 3 hrs per day and you play 3 hrs per day plus pay extra $$$, your toon will be better than mine.

It's not P2W, it's PM2W (pay more 2 win)

ashlee17 · February 2015

An interesting point that was made in an earlier comment would be to limit co bonuses to reaching vet 14 or lvl 50.

I think that could be a good limitation to add to the xp boosts to ensure less of a power difference between those with credit cards and those without.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2015

I've said it before and I will say it again. If you really think this kind of stuff will give someone an advantage on the battlefield you are most likely a horrible player. That's just being honest. If you think having a 3% buff instead of a 2.6% (from champion points diminishing returns) buff by having some extra CP really gives you that much of an edge you've been consuming to much Skooma.

If they put super awesome weapons and armor in the crown store that completely destroys current available crafted or dropped sets then you can call it P2W.

This game comes down to skill. There have always been bad players complaining about stuff like "wahhhhh, DK's are OP" or "wahhhh NB's and sorcs are to weak". This kind of stuff is said by legitimately bad players. It is as simple as that. They are the same people that are calling this P2W as well. Instead of complaining about all the bad things you "think" will happen, considering you really have no idea the outcome, go L2P. Cheers.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · February 2015

once again im not all that worried about the xp boosts giving an advantage over a vr9 compared to vr14 or two vr 14's grinding. What I do worry about is being able to rack up cp's (they are based of xp) on a vr2, vr3, vr9, and vr13 at an extremely fast rate. That person now has a ton of cp's but they're tired of those characters or feel devious. They roll a new character then distrubute upwards of what 300, 400 cp's since its my understanding that cp's can be distributed to under 50 char's but not earned. I can't imagine the power differential felt when a level 10 with 400 cp's meets anyone in cyro without that cp amount. Im pretty sure this can allow for one person, if devious enough, to grief a whole ton of under 50 pvpers.

to me a new player might get very upset if they're thrown into that mess.

reften · February 2015

Troneon wrote: »

Its not Pay 2 Win,

It's Pay 2 Skip Ahead. You see it in every MMO now....

Not saying it's a good thing or anything but it's not Pay 2 Win.

Personally I think you must be having a lot of left over income to waste money on xp crap lol Such a waste lol There are like a zillion better things in life to spend spare money on I can think of off the top of my head.

but this is the first MMO without a level cap. That is the difference

bearclawmcbainb16_ESO · February 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Would the removal of inconvenience be fine for you in any other genre than RPGs?

Absolutely, as FPS's offer XP boosts all the time, but I don't see those players complain about it, and their chief gameplay is MP. P2W started over an argument by players to a company that offered up the best gear or best characters for games with PvP in a cash shop, with no other means of acquiring it. XP boosts have been around since before the term P2W existed, without an argument.

I don't see how my comment gave you "a good laugh." Care to explain to me how you win at ESO's, or any MMO's for that matter, PvE? I'd really like to know, because I've been playing Star Trek Online for going on 5 years now, and still haven't "won" it.

You argument is the rally cry of the "its not P2W" crowd. This community is going to see more and more people like you here. That is why I am afraid I will probably be leaving ESO. I came to this game because I wanted to avoid people like you.

This is the question you and people with your attitude have: How do you "win" at an MMO? How do you "win" at PvE?

Then there are people like me that see it pretty damned cut and dry: If you can use a credit card to get ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE over someone that is not using a credit card, then THAT is P2W. You are paying for shortcuts. Paying for speed. Paying for things that make your character equal to or better than someone that actually EARNED those items.

It is a timeless debate. It never ends, and it is ALWAYS present in games with a cash shop.

That is why I hate cash shops. That is why I hate F2P games. That is why I hate B2P games.

I want no part in this debate anymore. I want no part of this discussion anymore. I want no part of a game where this endless/winless debate rages on and on and on.

That is what makes a subscription game so sublime in my opinion. Everyone pays a flat fee and everyone has equal access to the same items requiring the same amount of effort.

I hate the fact that we are even having this discussion on this forum. It makes me sick. I have seen it ruin so many good games and it will ruin ESO.

Fully agree.
I had expected to probably return and play for free after Unlimited released, and only buy playable DLC content, but bringing XP boosters to the cash shop is just the last drop in the cup of broken promises.
Time to delete the ESO folder.

Last note:
I had so much hope for this game. I subbed monthly because my heart was in it. ZOS says it's still the same game! But it's not. I'll go look for the next big game and hope their developers are more honest.

(And I am keeping my stuff. I earned it).

DeLindsay · February 2015

oren74 wrote: »

but this is the first MMO without a level cap. That is the difference

ESO certainly does have a Level cap. It's Level 50 + 14 VR Ranks, or in simpler terms Level 64. And Eve Online would also like to disagree with your statement about ESO being the first MMO without Level caps, Eve has no levels at all.

Kragorn · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Paying for a sub. means XP boosts = more champion point = paying for advantage?

I see no difference here, but I suspect you'll try to argue there is.

seanvwolf · February 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

In the Road Ahead I remember reading that the xp boost potions could be purchased with in-game gold. The Crown Store exchange at that point would simply be a convenience.

ashlee17 · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Paying for a sub. means XP boosts = more champion point = paying for advantage?

I see no difference here, but I suspect you'll try to argue there is.

Not at all. I started this thread long before the potions announcement because I felt uneasy about the 10% exp boosts that came with subscription. Please read before assuming. I don't like any exp boosts purchased with real money.

reften · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Paying for a sub. means XP boosts = more champion point = paying for advantage?

I see no difference here, but I suspect you'll try to argue there is.

the difference is, with a monthly sub, you can't PAY MORE to progress faster.

Potions, you can spend as much money as you want, to constantly be sucking down xp boost potions, to dramatically increase your CPs for tons of extra money, level as fast as you possibly can, and boom. you just paid to win.

HUGE difference.

Kragorn · February 2015

oren74 wrote: »

Kragorn wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Paying for a sub. means XP boosts = more champion point = paying for advantage?

I see no difference here, but I suspect you'll try to argue there is.

the difference is, with a monthly sub, you can't PAY MORE to progress faster.

Potions, you can spend as much money as you want, to constantly be sucking down xp boost potions, to dramatically increase your CPs for tons of extra money, level as fast as you possibly can, and boom. you just paid to win.

HUGE difference.

Um, if I use 5 XP pots at the same time I buy from the store at once I get 50% XP boost?

If I don't I don't understand why you think this is different by someone spending cash on a sub. and getting a permanent 10% XP boost which is one of the few perks a sub. buys you.

Pretty sure I won't get 50% XP if I use 5 pots at the same time, BTW.

TehMagnus · February 2015

It is P2W, it takes time to level up, so you cut time with XP potions, just like it takes time to raid to get good loot, so eventually you'll be able to buy loot.

Edit: If the XP boosts don't apply to CP though, then it's ok, because there is a level cap. But if the XP boosts allow you to earn CP quicker, then it is most def P2W since you pay to get CPs faster which is an advantage vs people who invest the same time as you but don't buy the boost.

Anyone denying this is just blind or doesn't know what Pay2Win means;

Xexpo · February 2015

JamilaRaj · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Paying for a sub. means XP boosts = more champion point = paying for advantage?

I see no difference here, but I suspect you'll try to argue there is.

Not me. I agree that sub is payment for advantage as well.