Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

Alphashado · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke As I've said on a previous post a few days ago to you P2W is something different you will need to coin it a different term than that.

As a champ level 1000 with xp boost will be on exactly the same combat effectiveness as someone who doesn't have xp boost as it champ level 1000.

Sure there is a time advantage on how quick you will get that champ level, but that isn't B2W. Never has been in the past.

It has been, in pretty much every F2P & B2P MMOs out there. Which is just one of the reasons why people don't like them.

You can't come up with arbitrary decisions on "what is P2W & what is not", and because of that everything that someone considers "P2W" should be carefully examined whether it grants an advantage & makes an unhealthy environment for those players.

As long as these players feel they have to spend $$$ to be "as good" as others, P2W exists (whether you are one of these players or not).

Exactly. Plus, as the subscription fans slowly fade out and the cash shop fans begin to come in, the population changes. You have more and more people in the community that support cash shops while you will have less and less people that dislike them.

Using Rift again as an example, most of us still here (supporters of the sub model) will take one look at Rift's cash shop and immediately see it as P2W. Yet the existing and current Rift community will defend it till they are blue in the face.

So you get subtle changes to the cash shop that are "acceptable" for the "current" community. ZoS is hovering right on the edge of what their "current" community considers "acceptable" with small things like XP boosts.

In time that will probably change as the community becomes more and more in favor of the cash shop option. It's a slow. steady change.

Much like the boiling frog theory: If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will jump out. But if you put a frog into a pot of nice cool water and slowly bring it to a boil, the frog will stay in the water and die.

Faulgor · January 2015

How long have F2P games been around? I'm not sure, but it should be long enough for people to have realized by now that any F2P cash shop is for convenience.
That's exactly the damn point. The player is inconvenienced by gameplay, and then offered an option in the cash shop to circumvent that inconvenience. The only difference between F2P games (and B2P games, I don't make the distinction, sorry) is the relation between convenience offered and inconvenience suffered. That's it.

Now, one problem is that inconvenience is an integral part of any game. Otherwise, there is no problem to overcome, and no action from the player is required. Oddly shaped pieces in Tetris are an inconvenience. A gap in the floor in a jump & run is an inconvenience. A locked door in an adventure is an inconvenience. And so is a low character level in an RPG. Character progression is simply the nature of the genre, a lack in power is the inconvenience that has to be overcome by playing the game. Anything that offers ways to mitigate this inconvenience for cash is, in quality, Pay2Win. Why most people argue if something is Pay2Win or not is that they have different opinions about the quantity of the offered convenience.

This is further obfuscated because there is no winning condition in RPGs, in contrast to other genres like shooters, RTS or fighting games. The point of RPGs is the journey itself, not beating your opponent in a controlled fight and then being the definitive victor. The fight never ends.

If you think offering convenience items for cash is not Pay2Win, please ask yourself: Would the removal of inconvenience be fine for you in any other genre than RPGs?

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Humanistic wrote: »

The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.

That doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game, and your speaking of PvE. There is no winning in PvE.

Had a good laugh, thanks.

darthbelanb14_ESO · January 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Would the removal of inconvenience be fine for you in any other genre than RPGs?

Absolutely, as FPS's offer XP boosts all the time, but I don't see those players complain about it, and their chief gameplay is MP. P2W started over an argument by players to a company that offered up the best gear or best characters for games with PvP in a cash shop, with no other means of acquiring it. XP boosts have been around since before the term P2W existed, without an argument.

I don't see how my comment gave you "a good laugh." Care to explain to me how you win at ESO's, or any MMO's for that matter, PvE? I'd really like to know, because I've been playing Star Trek Online for going on 5 years now, and still haven't "won" it.

Faulgor · January 2015

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't see how my comment gave you "a good laugh." Care to explain to me how you win at ESO's, or any MMO's for that matter, PvE? I'd really like to know, because I've been playing Star Trek Online for going on 5 years now, and still haven't "won" it.

I laughed because you apparently make a distinction between PvE and PvP in this regard. There is no more winning in PvP than in PvE. Of course, depending on your definition of winning in MMOs, there is either no winning at all or every encounter can be won. But even then, there's no difference between PvP and PvE.

Or do have you won STO's PvP yet?

Alphashado · January 2015

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Would the removal of inconvenience be fine for you in any other genre than RPGs?

Absolutely, as FPS's offer XP boosts all the time, but I don't see those players complain about it, and their chief gameplay is MP. P2W started over an argument by players to a company that offered up the best gear or best characters for games with PvP in a cash shop, with no other means of acquiring it. XP boosts have been around since before the term P2W existed, without an argument.

I don't see how my comment gave you "a good laugh." Care to explain to me how you win at ESO's, or any MMO's for that matter, PvE? I'd really like to know, because I've been playing Star Trek Online for going on 5 years now, and still haven't "won" it.

You argument is the rally cry of the "its not P2W" crowd. This community is going to see more and more people like you here. That is why I am afraid I will probably be leaving ESO. I came to this game because I wanted to avoid people like you.

This is the question you and people with your attitude have: How do you "win" at an MMO? How do you "win" at PvE?

Then there are people like me that see it pretty damned cut and dry: If you can use a credit card to get ANY KIND OF ADVANTAGE over someone that is not using a credit card, then THAT is P2W. You are paying for shortcuts. Paying for speed. Paying for things that make your character equal to or better than someone that actually EARNED those items.

It is a timeless debate. It never ends, and it is ALWAYS present in games with a cash shop.

That is why I hate cash shops. That is why I hate F2P games. That is why I hate B2P games.

I want no part in this debate anymore. I want no part of this discussion anymore. I want no part of a game where this endless/winless debate rages on and on and on.

That is what makes a subscription game so sublime in my opinion. Everyone pays a flat fee and everyone has equal access to the same items requiring the same amount of effort.

I hate the fact that we are even having this discussion on this forum. It makes me sick. I have seen it ruin so many good games and it will ruin ESO.

Gidorick · January 2015

It doesn't give a player an advantage OVER another player. it's not like a player that buys an XP boost will be able to do something other players will not be able to do. If 2 players go toe to toe and they are the same level and one has an XP boost... there's no advantage there.

Alphashado · January 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

It doesn't give a player an advantage OVER another player. it's not like a player that buys an XP boost will be able to do something other players will not be able to do.

I disagree. An XP boost puts a character at level cap faster. It makes them competitive at endgame AvA sooner. It allows them to level alternate characters up faster so they can join their friends in Trials sooner.

XP boosts are a very clear advantage. They will eventually be putting gear and weapons in the cash shop once box sale money runs out. And you guys will still be here saying it's not P2W just because those weapons aren't better than what you have to actually earn by playing the game.

By using a credit card to bypass actually earning the item by playing the game is a very clear and distinct advantage.

Dragath · January 2015

I am absolutely fine with Boosters, and ZOS has to put up stuff like that in the Shop.
They have to sell worthwhile "convenience" Items that are good enough to be bought in huge amounts from the Community.
They wont sell a Mount more than once per Player, but they might be able to sell a hundred Boosters to the same player, if they are worth the money.
Thats how you make money with a ingame shop.
Well, that and Panda Hats.

Alphashado · January 2015

Dragath wrote: »

I am absolutely fine with Boosters, and ZOS has to put up stuff like that in the Shop.
They have to sell worthwhile "convenience" Items that are good enough to be bought in huge amounts from the Community.
They wont sell a Mount more than once per Player, but they might be able to sell a hundred Boosters to the same player, if they are worth the money.
Thats how you make money with a ingame shop.
Well, that and Panda Hats.

I actually agree. I don't have much of a problem with boosters, so long as it stops there. What I do have an issue with is the notion that boosters don't give anyone an advantage.

Izzban · January 2015

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

I think at this point, anyone who is quoting ZoS as a reliable source of information about upcoming changes to the game is, "doing it wrong".

Dragath · January 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

I am absolutely fine with Boosters, and ZOS has to put up stuff like that in the Shop.
They have to sell worthwhile "convenience" Items that are good enough to be bought in huge amounts from the Community.
They wont sell a Mount more than once per Player, but they might be able to sell a hundred Boosters to the same player, if they are worth the money.
Thats how you make money with a ingame shop.
Well, that and Panda Hats.

I actually agree. I don't have much of a problem with boosters, so long as it stops there. What I do have an issue with is the notion that boosters don't give anyone an advantage.

Boosters are an advantage, thats the only reason why people buy them.
Should be quite clear, id say.

And as long as they are just there to "save time", its fine.
If Player X can only play 10 Hours a week, but can spend 50 Dollar to be on par with Player Y, which plays 30 Hours a week, fine with me.
It can become a problem if there is no real Cap to anything. Levels, Power, whatever it is in the specific game, but i think even Champion Points will be capped.

Izzban wrote: »

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

I think at this point, anyone who is quoting ZoS as a reliable source of information about upcoming changes to the game is, "doing it wrong".

thats not correct, by the way.
they said, some stuff will be exclusive to the shop.

Cyhawk · January 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

I think I am disappointed that there will be a less even playing field.
For those of us who are not face roll awesome- extra champion points and the associated boosts to our stats can and will be the difference between a win or a loss.

Why this is different to upgrading gear with gold?

We both have equal acess to earning gold in game reguardless of the size of our wallets.

At least we did have equal access...

But now paying subs gives us a gold advantage as well...

So in order to feel like my victories are all my own and not my wallets I should unsubscribe to forgo these advantages?

I don't mind paying a sub atm, but when it gives me a advantage over others because I do... Makes me feel uneasy...

This is an RPG, one where people are rewarded for working harder. Guess what, there is no even playing field and never will be. If you want an even playing field go play... um... Candy Crush or something.

DDuke · January 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

It doesn't give a player an advantage OVER another player. it's not like a player that buys an XP boost will be able to do something other players will not be able to do. If 2 players go toe to toe and they are the same level and one has an XP boost... there's no advantage there.

Person A spends 11 hours doing a boring grind.
Person B spends 10 hours doing a boring grind, because he spent 2$ in a cash shop.

That one hour, Person A could have spent doing something he/she enjoys, or something else that helps him/her gain more power in game, but this wasn't an option because Person As time was less valuable to the developer (because Person A didn't spend $$ in "Boosters").

Person A's time & effort suddenly become more important & valuable than yours, and Person A pisses all over your achievements & dedication you have poured into the game.

There is no defending items that grant advantages (what is more of something, if not an advantage?)

You can go

or you can accept facts.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Nijjion · January 2015

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

starkerealm · January 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Shinra wrote: »

Right now, as far as I know, You won't get experience boost in the cash shop but only for your sub.

And as I have already played quite a few pay2win games, believe me, you don't know how far that can go. If I would put it in levels,

Level 1: p2w: You can get a few things, like 10% exp boost, or a horse that's cheaper than ingame.
Level 5: You get serious advantages, like 100% exp boosts, many expensive items (like Panacea of Spell Power) can be baught in the cashshop. Or you can buy ingame gold for real money.
Level 7: You can now buy gear as good as in endgame dungeons in the cashshop. You can also activate some skill lines only in the cashshop.
Level 9: You can get better things in the cash shop than in the game. You can enhance your Spell Power, Resistances and Mana and Life points by at least 33 % with cash shop products.
Level 10: Even more bonuses, and the core element is a cash shop lottery which you need to pay for to get a chance to get the best cash shop products. If you invest enough money, we are talking about +300% Exp and Gold bonuses, many unique things like changing your race to dremora and get serious race advantages. And you get items for doubling your HP, spell power or mana reg. or ulti. reg for a specific amount of time, and many skills and powerful ultimates which you will only get in the cash shop.

So yes, this game is definitely a weak form of p2w. But still, I am not worried. There is a long way to go till it will actually become a "true" p2w game which may take 3-5 or more years, even if they decide to go that road.

I gotta ask. What games did this?

Star Trek Online for one. It's a little harder to track because lobi crystals and dilithium are also real money currencies, so the whole thing is a little obscure. Also, it's not dremora, obviously, but unless they've changed it since when I was playing last, Liberated Borg will kick your teeth in.

DDuke · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

freespirit · January 2015

I played a game where you could literally buy your way to max level without playing at all!!........

However I chose to play my way to max level......

Did the people who chose to pay their way to the top have an advantage?

Well I suppose it depends on how you look at it.....

I spent many hours learning game mechanics, experimenting with builds and skills and generally enjoying the experience.....

When I reached level cap I knew how to play......

The people who had paid their way to the top used to stand out like a sore thumb, as they were generally quite clueless about how to do things!

ESO is a game, which I choose to play and as such what is or isn't in the 'cash shop' only affects my playstyle if I choose to let it do so.....

If I want to work for my gear and the person next to me chooses to pay for their's well that really doesn't affect me because I'm still playing the way I want to.

DDuke · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.

DDuke · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.

It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.

Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.

How is this such a hard concept...

You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"

timidobserver · January 2015

P2W has a different definition for every player. Is is sort of a majority wins kind of thing. ZOS should aim to stay away from what the majority of players consider P2W.

Some people will legitimately consider a minor XP boost, an inferior health potion, and a cosmetic horse P2W, but they will likely be in the minority and should probably be ignored.

Abr4hn · January 2015

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Pay 2 Win = being able to buy things that make your character(s) STRONGER in some way.

XP boosts and the like are Pay 4 Convenience, to put it in the same vernacular.

DDuke · January 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

P2W has a different definition for every player. Is is sort of a majority wins kind of thing. ZOS should aim to stay away from what the majority of players consider P2W.

Some people will legitimately consider a minor XP boost, an inferior health potion, and a cosmetic horse P2W, but they will likely be in the minority and should probably be ignored.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.

It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.

Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.

How is this such a hard concept...

You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"

It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.

Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.

Person B: Likes to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.

Either way, both person A and B end up with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.

timidobserver · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

P2W has a different definition for every player. Is is sort of a majority wins kind of thing. ZOS should aim to stay away from what the majority of players consider P2W.

Some people will legitimately consider a minor XP boost, an inferior health potion, and a cosmetic horse P2W, but they will likely be in the minority and should probably be ignored.

Sure if you are trying to keep the majority of your player base happy.

Dragath · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.

Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.

How is this such a hard concept...

You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"

Might be a hard concept for you, because for most people in the real world time is money.
Just google "time is money" and you will see how that concept is in almost everyones head, so you are the exception here.
dont get me wrong, its neither bad nor good, everyone has to decide for himself.
but it is the concept that is used in the world, and as such it can quite easily apply to a game which is in this real world environment, where a company has to earn money.

DDuke · January 2015

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.

It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.

Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.

How is this such a hard concept...

You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"

It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.

Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.

Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.

Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.

Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.

So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?

How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?

What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?

People like you make me sick.

SFBryan18 · January 2015

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

If xp boosts are considered p2w, then the game is already p2w. You pay the time needed and you win. With XP boosts, they are just adding another payment method.

Difference here is that everyone pays the same amount, and no one is at a disadvantage due to that.
If you don't pay the same amount as everyone else, you don't play at all.
Simple concepts, really.

Nijjion wrote: »

@DDuke Can we at least agree upon that it's a convenience advantage rather than a combat advantage and forget about it being P2W advantage?

Let's just call them advantages, that's fine for me.

P2W or advantages for $$$, neither should exist.

They will pay the same amount. Just some will pay with two different currency's.

People trade time for money all the time. It's called work. This is just trading money for time.

Example:

10 hours = X
9 hours + sub = X

Both players earned the same stuff. Some chose to pay with more time, while other chose to pay with some cash. Either way, X is the same.

So someone with a better job should be better & have advantages in game as well?

Essentially, you're defending P2W.

I don't give a crap what your job is, how many kids you have to feed or how much money you have, that should never provide an advantage in a competitive environment.

That's not how it works in real life either.
You don't go into a football field, flaunt your money around & become a good player.
In fact, it's the other way around usually.

You missed the part where X is the same for both players. There is no advantage.

It's not the same. For Person A it's money, for Person B it's time.

Time=/=Money, and Money is not the same thing for Person A & B.

How is this such a hard concept...

You are basically saying "Hey, I have $$$, so I deserve to spend my time better than you in this game"

It's not a hard concept. You just don't get it.

Person A: Has no job, pays no money, and spend all his time freeloading on his mothers couch playing ESO. He racks up massive amounts of XP because he has so much free time.

Person B: Like to play but has to work and spend time with his family. He has less time to play and would like to trade some of his time from work with time in the game. This trade will use a currency called US Dollars.

Either way, Both person A and B end us with character X. This is the exact same character and has no advantages. If you can't understand this, there's no point in arguing. You just don't get it. Not everyone is good with logic so whatever.

Wow, I like your stereotypes. Must be hard to cross a street in that black & white world.

So "Person B" is a more valued individual in game as well, because he spends time with his family & works?

How about a "Person C", who is rich and doesn't have to work. He spends all his time in game and all his $$$ in Cash Shop.
Is he also more valued than "Person A"?

What next, should Persons B & C become a better footballer, because he gives the coach $$$? Should they perhaps skip you in line in supermarkets & spit on you from balconies as well?

People like you make me sick.

Again, you are missing the part where character X is the same for all of them. If character X has no advantages, then it doesn't matter how they got there, each person spent something and got the exact same end results.

You might think time does not equal money, but this game will now allow you to trade time for money. *** and moan all you want. It's going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it.