DDuke wrote: »

Sylvyr wrote: »

The argument over whether XP boost (and being able to get champ points faster) is P2W is just kind of wierd. I mean, if two players, one with boost and one without, both arrive at max CP points, they would be equal (in that one regard). One player can arrive there faster with the boost. If both players progress in parallel, one will spend more time progressing, one will be spending less + money.

It seems like the main point of contention is, is it fair? To some degree it is. I mean, if you and I both get in separate taxis to take us to a party, and I "tip" my taxi driver 20 bucks to drive fast and you don't. Well I'm going to get to the party earlier than you and enjoy more time there. Is it fair? I think so, I spent 20 and you didn't have to, you could use the 20 bucks that you didn't spend to whip your driver at the party for more drinks or whatever.

Except that driving to a party isn't a competitive environment, games are.

And while you might argue that a person leveling 10% faster (or getting CP 10% faster) isn't P2W because they arrive at the same location, you're forgetting that the other person has 10% more time to do other stuff that allows him to win more. Thus pay to win, since it indirectly affects the competitive environment, like anything that provides an advantage.

Well driving to a party certainly can be competitive, if you and you friend are both interested in the same girl, you pay the driver to get there faster, get to talk to that girl first... =P

Just to be clear, I do believe speed boosts fall under P2W. I guess what I'm wrangling with is the degree in which it affects the game (adversely). If 10% is significant enough to really cause noticeable harm the game and environment.

DDuke wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

10% must be pay to win /sarcasm. What kind of subscription benefit would you rather have and would be more logical and lure-worthy?
-snip-

How about the one we have currently, where we pay subscription & get access to all content? How about they keep releasing content every 4-6 weeks to encourage subscribing?

Un-subscribers get all content but DLCs (Zones) for free, the problem is that subscribers won't be getting any bang for their buck. If we pay $15 a month and content is released every several months [say 2-4 months (look at 1.5's - 1.6's transition or the 1.6-console release then to 1.7)], then each FREE content update [which is what you're talking about (patch 1.1- patch 1.2- patch 1.xx-etc...) that we have prior to the Pay-to-Play to Buy-to-Play should be paid for (1.7 and on).
If each DLC (zones which has already been announced as being DLCs) cost $10-15, then why should we continue our subscription? From what you're saying, ZoS should charge people for large bug fixes, revamps to some skills and zones (that take large amounts of time to develop).
Subscribers deserve more than zones.

I didnt read all five pages but has anyone suggested making XP boosts only work from lvl 1-50?

Instead of XP boots, they should just offer an AUTO-LEVEL to X level buff.

So, pay $X to jump to lvl 50 and no further. Or even pay $X to jump 10 levels.

That would be great for getting alts up fast. But it wouldn't allow someone to just perpetually grow their power rapidly.

DDuke wrote: »

They already admitted in the AUA (I'm surprised they didn't lie) that content update frequency was slowed down due to Cash Shop & DLC development.

Give quote to that. I remember it meaning something different then what you are implying there.

We are not going to keep up our 2014 pace of updates in 2015 - and our future update pace will focus more on new adventures and game experiences than system changes. It's time to let the game breathe a little - we've done so many new features so quickly that we want to make sure everyone is on the same page with us. 1.6 alone has a complete rebalancing of most player abilities - we don't want to do that again, for example. Our #1 priority right now is getting Tamriel Unlimited launched on PC, and then focusing on a successful console launch. While we do those things, we have other teams already working on DLC and expect to see that start rolling out at some point after console launch settles down.

- This is what I saw, and doesn't mean what you are implying in your post. So, perhaps you are talking about a different quote, please provide it.

Nathan wrote: »

So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...

The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.

If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.

It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...

Yes.
Why do you think people disliked the Imperial Edition and the Explorer's Pack?
It gave a huge early game advantage.

Gaining time is p2w, and a more insidious form as people, just like you, don't pay attention to it. Whether you understand it yet or not, we already know that the thief guild and the darkbrotherhood, both skill lines, will be DLCs. We can also expect sets of gear only obtainable in DLCs.
These enter in your limited definition of p2w too.

And no, it's not the same story than players that play a lot. They put in a lot more efforts in the game, and effort should be rewarded. It's kind of the whole point of RPGs, you gain levels and do quests for rewards and as a result become stronger.
This is why time saving items are p2w. You bypass the in game "cost" of becoming powerful.

Nathan wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

Nathan wrote: »

So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...

The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.

If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.

It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...

It's not only if cash shop items give you an advantage over in game crafted ones when you buy them. It's also about the fact that cash shop items could make crafted ones obsolete or useless. Simply by scaling, which crafted ones do not.

You will buy health potions at lvl 20 but use them all the way to lvl 50 as they scale with you. Why would anyone buy crafted ones?
Crafted potions are limited to every 10 levels, which could make them special potions to use only around those levels. In between those levels, you might be better off with cash shop ones.

So, will this affect crafting?

I don't think this will affect crafting, because gold is a currency you can get in game (even farm it) and spend with no problem buying potion crafted when you need it; Crowns is a currency you can't farm in game, so I think people will save Crowns for DLC/Costumes/Mounts or everything else you can't get normally playing the game.

Nowadays most people have more money than time.
MMOs are mainstream now, so the majority of players are casual with other things to do. They will pay.

kongkim wrote: »

Boosters is not P2W, as all can get there without any big problems.
If there was items that gave an advantage that made pvp or pve easier that you could only get from the shop that would be P2W. But there is not, so all fine.

You just managed to contradict yourself in your own post. Hear me out.

The whole point of PvE is to face a challenge, if you gain 10% more xp as you consume the same content than someone else, the longer it goes, teh wider the gap in power you'll have with both other players but also the content, making it easier.

A booster would also make PvP easier. As you gain more xp than a player of similar skill and time commitment than you, you increase the power gap as you gain champion points faster. That gap will continue to get wider as time passes since he'll be always 10% slower to close the gap. Making PvP easier.
And with gold booster, you can buy food, potions and better gear 10% faster. Your PvP will be easier as you'll have less preparatory grind to do.
Finally, if AP boosters get introduced, you can impact the battlefield 10% more as you can buy more siege or repair kits, making PvP easier too.

Both PvE and PvP would be easier, hence entering your definition of P2W.

DDuke wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

10% must be pay to win /sarcasm. What kind of subscription benefit would you rather have and would be more logical and lure-worthy?
-snip-

How about the one we have currently, where we pay subscription & get access to all content? How about they keep releasing content every 4-6 weeks to encourage subscribing?

And finally: This

Faulgor wrote: »

How long have F2P games been around? I'm not sure, but it should be long enough for people to have realized by now that any F2P cash shop is for convenience.
That's exactly the damn point. The player is inconvenienced by gameplay, and then offered an option in the cash shop to circumvent that inconvenience. The only difference between F2P games (and B2P games, I don't make the distinction, sorry) is the relation between convenience offered and inconvenience suffered. That's it.

Now, one problem is that inconvenience is an integral part of any game. Otherwise, there is no problem to overcome, and no action from the player is required. Oddly shaped pieces in Tetris are an inconvenience. A gap in the floor in a jump & run is an inconvenience. A locked door in an adventure is an inconvenience. And so is a low character level in an RPG. Character progression is simply the nature of the genre, a lack in power is the inconvenience that has to be overcome by playing the game. Anything that offers ways to mitigate this inconvenience for cash is, in quality, Pay2Win. Why most people argue if something is Pay2Win or not is that they have different opinions about the quantity of the offered convenience.

This is further obfuscated because there is no winning condition in RPGs, in contrast to other genres like shooters, RTS or fighting games. The point of RPGs is the journey itself, not beating your opponent in a controlled fight and then being the definitive victor. The fight never ends.

If you think offering convenience items for cash is not Pay2Win, please ask yourself: Would the removal of inconvenience be fine for you in any other genre than RPGs?

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Humanistic wrote: »

The answer is yes, the game is pay to win - but that is overshadowed by all the cosmetic items you will be able to buy. If you couldn't buy potions or soul gems on the fly from the in-game store, then you would essentially be surviving less, and having to take time from your character progression to go back to town and re-stock (this is how things work right now). But when you don't have to do that, then your progression can never stop, because you simply never die with your stock of pots - and should that happen, you can just buy a soul gem (from the in-game store) and use that while out questing or delving. It takes less time to not ever have to go back to town to restock, it is a convenience thing, yes - but it is also a very small form of pay to win.

That doesn't affect your enjoyment of the game, and your speaking of PvE. There is no winning in PvE.

Had a good laugh, thanks.

I cannot explain it better.
More inconvenience in a game > More funny and exciting it is.

I don't want any advantage for my ESO Plus subscription nor in any shop. ZENIMAX, you have the last chance for not sink the game forever.

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Most MMO's do this. I don't see this as a pay to win since everyone will be at max level by the end of it eitherway.

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Not entirely P2W yet. Supposedly, Premium Plus only gives %10 XP bonus. Now, you can get %10 XP bonus by simply joining a group. By grouping with friends you will be on the same level as Premium Plus member in terms of XP bonus.

And what about premium players that play in group?
Whata about players that play grouped, have bought the edition with the rings of mara, pay a subscription and have bought booster in the shop?

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Not entirely P2W yet. Supposedly, Premium Plus only gives %10 XP bonus. Now, you can get %10 XP bonus by simply joining a group. By grouping with friends you will be on the same level as Premium Plus member in terms of XP bonus.

And what about premium players that play in group?
Whata about players that play grouped, have bought the edition with the rings of mara, pay a subscription and have bought booster in the shop?

Not entirely

XP boosts are not P2W. XP boosts do not obstruct fairness because there is no real advantage besides convenience. Unless there is an Achievement that rewards World First max Level something.

When a paid xp boost translates to end-game power then it's p2w. We will see just how much of a boost it is today on PTS and how it diminishes with each point we earn.

Honestly, I have come to the point where I stopped caring.

I never cared when I played DDO either. I occasionally was given an xp boost potion for a reward from a chest or some sort of lottery prize. I'd use it, it'd be gone in about an hour and then I'd move on with my virtual life.

I know there are people who will buy stacks of xp and boost their way to end-game. I can't really stop them.

It'd be nice if the xp boost wasn't included in the Crown Store but I suppose it is what it is and so I'll just keep playing my way.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

easy solution, boost can only be used level 1-50, cant get champ points, but can grind alts up extra quick. that would be great in fact.

Why would they do that?
The bulk of our PvE grind time will always be above lvl 50. I they want to sell boosts, they have to affect the high endplayers that are getting bored of their grind.

I hate the concept of boosters and cash shops, but your solution isn't possible.
Remember they have to replace $15 per month per player. They need every way they can to make people want to buy things.