Buying XP boosts =more champion points= paying for advantage?

ashlee17

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Vusile

Agreed. It's already marketed as not pay to win right? Even though we clearly have advantages off the bat.

It's all about perceptions. Since many people won't think of small little boosts to experience as pay to win, it becomes easier to sell lots of small little advantages over time.

Until you effectively have a pay to win product.

Sylvyr

There is a lot of debate over what "win" is and with that what P2W is.

Some would only the ability of the player defines win regardless of gear or boosts.

Some would say that "best" items only are win.

Some would say that anything that anything that boosts you qualifies for P2W since part of "winning" involves levelling, +XP boosts get you there faster. Gold can purchase "winning" items to some degree or another so +gold boost is P2W. Crafting can get you "winning" gear so bonus to craft XP and reduced research time is P2W.

Personally, I think it's all the above. If it provides a shortcut or stat or functional change for $ I'd say it's P2W. But you'll hear other opinions I'm sure.

The creative use by ESO of "convenience" items also throws things for a loop. Kind of like instead of calling a used car a used car and calling it previously owned. They have spent a lot of effort and PR to minimize this. I don't by the convenience spin to it, to me it's still P2W.

Some people would say, OK, maybe, but the boosts or conveniences are not that substantial. For example, 10% is not that much, but if it were 50% it would be unfair. Some would say 1% is enough....

To me an advantage provided by cash versus not is pretty black and white.

What is important though, is regardless of what who thinks what it all comes down to numbers and money and business math. How much can they make and how for can they go to maximize profit margins. Well, that depends on how many players like it versus don't like it, how many subs they get versus lose, etc.

Hortator Mopa

ashlee17 wrote: »

Is this the beginning paying to win?
Or is this just time saving convenience?

Personally I'm not sure- what do you all think?
I do worry that it's not a cosmetic change.

Its covered in the cost we pay before so I dont think it is.

HOWEVER

In 6 to 9 months when the smoke settles and they feel like making another bad move I think we will see items we can buy ON TOP of the sub that give us p2w benefits....

ashlee17

Well I'm not thrilled about new mounts and pets being locked behind paywall, they do not effect gameplay. But the possible influence of real world money on the experience gain of characters, and subsequently the champion points and power of a character is of concern to me.

Disclaimer- below are just some random thoughts, and by no means my opinion, nor a cohesive argument.

Stay with me here I know it's a stretch but...

I just keep thinking its a bit like the drugs in sport... Perfomance enhancers... Clean athletes feeling angry about the few who get an unfair advantage using performance enhancing drugs.
Even if that unfair advantage is small, it can still sour the whole sport.

So anyway... Let me know your thoughts- even if they are incoherent .

SoonerMagicEE

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

SoonerMagicEE

BTW, that was stated in the twitch live stream.

WraithAzraiel

There's a hard cap on the amount of champion points you can get, just like there's a hard cap on how many levels you can have.

I don't see a problem here. Especially if they're made available to everyone.

Hortator Mopa

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

They said, SOME items are in game and in cash shop, SOME are in game only and SOME are only available in cash shop.

Go read the thread that was posted that has all the questions and answers in it from the live...

Shinra

Right now, as far as I know, You won't get experience boost in the cash shop but only for your sub.

And as I have already played quite a few pay2win games, believe me, you don't know how far that can go. If I would put it in levels,

Level 1: p2w: You can get a few things, like 10% exp boost, or a horse that's cheaper than ingame.
Level 5: You get serious advantages, like 100% exp boosts, many expensive items (like Panacea of Spell Power) can be baught in the cashshop. Or you can buy ingame gold for real money.
Level 7: You can now buy gear as good as in endgame dungeons in the cashshop. You can also activate some skill lines only in the cashshop.
Level 9: You can get better things in the cash shop than in the game. You can enhance your Spell Power, Resistances and Mana and Life points by at least 33 % with cash shop products.
Level 10: Even more bonuses, and the core element is a cash shop lottery which you need to pay for to get a chance to get the best cash shop products. If you invest enough money, we are talking about +300% Exp and Gold bonuses, many unique things like changing your race to dremora and get serious race advantages. And you get items for doubling your HP, spell power or mana reg. or ulti. reg for a specific amount of time, and many skills and powerful ultimates which you will only get in the cash shop.

So yes, this game is definitely a weak form of p2w. But still, I am not worried. There is a long way to go till it will actually become a "true" p2w game which may take 3-5 or more years, even if they decide to go that road.

Hortator Mopa

Shinra wrote: »

Right now, as far as I know, You won't get experience boost in the cash shop but only for your sub.

And as I have already played quite a few pay2win games, believe me, you don't know how far that can go. If I would put it in levels,

Level 1: p2w: You can get a few things, like 10% exp boost, or a horse that's cheaper than ingame.
Level 5: You get serious advantages, like 100% exp boosts, many expensive items (like Panacea of Spell Power) can be baught in the cashshop. Or you can buy ingame gold for real money.
Level 7: You can now buy gear as good as in endgame dungeons in the cashshop. You can also activate some skill lines only in the cashshop.
Level 9: You can get better things in the cash shop than in the game. You can enhance your Spell Power, Resistances and Mana and Life points by at least 33 % with cash shop products.
Level 10: Even more bonuses, and the core element is a cash shop lottery which you need to pay for to get a chance to get the best cash shop products. If you invest enough money, we are talking about +300% Exp and Gold bonuses, many unique things like changing your race to dremora and get serious race advantages. And you get items for doubling your HP, spell power or mana reg. or ulti. reg for a specific amount of time, and many skills and powerful ultimates which you will only get in the cash shop.

So yes, this game is definitely a weak form of p2w. But still, I am not worried. There is a long way to go till it will actually become a "true" game to win which may take 3-5 or more years, even if they decide to go that road.

That is 100% based on profits. If they dont make money they will ad items like that a lot sooner... I dont see cosmetics as enough to keep their lights on in the office... SO welcome the end..

Sylvyr

ashlee17 wrote: »

Well I'm not thrilled about new mounts and pets being locked behind paywall, they do not effect gameplay. But the possible influence of real world money on the experience gain of characters, and subsequently the champion points and power of a character is of concern to me.

Disclaimer- below are just some random thoughts, and by no means my opinion, nor a cohesive argument.

Stay with me here I know it's a stretch but...

I just keep thinking its a bit like the drugs in sport... Perfomance enhancers... Clean athletes feeling angry about the few who get an unfair advantage using performance enhancing drugs.
Even if that unfair advantage is small, it can still sour the whole sport.

So anyway... Let me know your thoughts- even if they are incoherent .

Seems cohesive and not too much of a stretch at all. CP is designed to give marginal returns the more you get into it so eventualllllllly in a loooong time, we should all be caught up to each other. But until then, 2 players at equal starts one with 10% boost and one without, and put in equal time, the boosted will have a real and noticeable head start.

WraithAzraiel

Shinra wrote: »

Right now, as far as I know, You won't get experience boost in the cash shop but only for your sub.

And as I have already played quite a few pay2win games, believe me, you don't know how far that can go. If I would put it in levels,

Level 1: p2w: You can get a few things, like 10% exp boost, or a horse that's cheaper than ingame.
Level 5: You get serious advantages, like 100% exp boosts, many expensive items (like Panacea of Spell Power) can be baught in the cashshop. Or you can buy ingame gold for real money.
Level 7: You can now buy gear as good as in endgame dungeons in the cashshop. You can also activate some skill lines only in the cashshop.
Level 9: You can get better things in the cash shop than in the game. You can enhance your Spell Power, Resistances and Mana and Life points by at least 33 % with cash shop products.
Level 10: Even more bonuses, and the core element is a cash shop lottery which you need to pay for to get a chance to get the best cash shop products. If you invest enough money, we are talking about +300% Exp and Gold bonuses, many unique things like changing your race to dremora and get serious race advantages. And you get items for doubling your HP, spell power or mana reg. or ulti. reg for a specific amount of time, and many skills and powerful ultimates which you will only get in the cash shop.

So yes, this game is definitely a weak form of p2w. But still, I am not worried. There is a long way to go till it will actually become a "true" p2w game which may take 3-5 or more years, even if they decide to go that road.

I gotta ask. What games did this?

RSram

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

If that's the case then what's the point of the store? What's the point of guild kiosks?

SoonerMagicEE

Their reasoning was time-saving.

Iago

RSram wrote: »

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

If that's the case then what's the point of the store? What's the point of guild kiosks?

Guild kiosk Only take money That exists within the game And no guild kiosk Sells anyt oceans That will boost your experience.

The chrome store Takes real money And sells you things That give you an advantage over another player.

SoonerMagicEE

Aside from the 10% xp/gold boost, they have not indicated anything will be sold that will give anyone a boost over other players. Furthermore, the xp/gold boosts will only be available to subscribers, not for direct purchase by non-subscribers (as of the latest info).

WraithAzraiel

Iago wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

If that's the case then what's the point of the store? What's the point of guild kiosks?

Guild kiosk Only take money That exists within the game And no guild kiosk Sells anyt oceans That will boost your experience.

The chrome store Takes real money And sells you things That give you an advantage over another player.

Have you been drinking?

Iago

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Iago wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

SoonerMagicEE wrote: »

FYI, they did actually say that all items available in the store would also be available in-game. Now I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it was said. That means it wouldn't be "locked behind a pay wall", if true.

If that's the case then what's the point of the store? What's the point of guild kiosks?

Guild kiosk Only take money That exists within the game And no guild kiosk Sells anyt oceans That will boost your experience.

The chrome store Takes real money And sells you things That give you an advantage over another player.

Have you been drinking?

No I'm at work and I got the office to myself right now So I'm using the speech to text function on my phone It's apparently not working the best tonight.

DeLindsay

P2W = Top Tier (or current Raid Tier/PvP Rank) gear purchasable via the Cash shop, even if it's available in game. ZoS has already said, no gear will be available in the Cash shop.

+XP/Gold/Vanity crap/etc = NOT P2W, it's 100% cosmetic/convenience.

EVERYONE will cap Champion System at some point, who cares if ESO Plus members do it a little bit faster. After the first ~30 points in each Star the gains are negligible anyway due to massive DR built into the system. The first point is 1%, the 100th point is 0.01%. Besides I'd be willing to wager 100K in game Gold that someone who is a standard B2P player after March 17th actually caps CP before anyone else, which still will take months. That is the type of Player with no life that can be on the game grinding out XP 10+ hrs/day.

I plan to be an ESO Plus member and I play any where from 1hr to maybe 4hrs/day, and half the time I'm not even on my Vet Character. I'm gonna get passed up hard by many B2P accounts for CP, and I could literally care less. A Player with 100 more CP than another Player still won't be more than a few % better at a thing in ESO than the other, stat wise, as skill is a totally different thing. P2W never takes skill into account, just the size of one's wallet.

SoonerMagicEE

Sanity? What are you doing here???

MrGhosty

It might be worth pointing out that as of their latest explanations, CP points are independent of level. You basically have "enlightenement" that speeds up your CP earning potential for basically an hour a day at which point it is spent and will take longer to earn the next. So for the sake of the argument let's say you get one CP point in an hour then two hours for the next, so on and so on.

They've not yet said exactly how we earn CP points other than it will doing things we also earn XP for, so it would well function much the way earning AP in PvP works while you also earn XP independent of that. Unless I've missed something (and I would love to have a link if I have) they haven't stated that your rate of earning XP will influence, so while subscribers will get the 10% boost It is far from game breaking in my eyes or P2W.

Also if you want to claim boosts are P2W then you should have already been upset and driven away as they sold the rings of mara in the imperial edition of the game which give you a 10% xp boost when grouped with your partner. The XP rate without any boosts is already ridiculously fast and with vet levels being removed sometime in the near future this is quite minimal.

Being a gamer who has to juggle a lot of other commitments, boosts have always been a nice thing as it allows me to keep up with friends that have more time to level than I do so that it isn't a completely lost cause to try and tackle content together. There isn't a finish line when you reach max level that says "congratulations you have won all the things" All the skill points or attribute points in the world don't mean a thing if you're still a terrible player they just make things a little bit more doable. All of this is why I don't consider boosts to be terribly game breaking or P2W. What is pay to win (imo) is something they sell in the store that completely bypass normal content walls and provides a tangible bonus or advantage and is only sold in the store. If it's available in the store and in game, it may be annoying and devalue the content required in game to earn said item but it isn't P2W.

The phrase itself is invoked far too often and liberally for my preferences, the concept itself is a serious balance issue but is a bit like a boogey man. Many times that it is claimed to be, it is naught but the wind on the breeze.

ashlee17

Just to reiterate. Topic is - paying for advantage.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Everything that makes you more powerful than another player of similar skill level and time investment means you paid to win.

With the champion point system it makes it even worse as you'll keep increasing the power gap until you reach the max of 3600 cp and only then will a non paying player be able to start closing the gap with you.

So to answer OP: Yes, boosts are p2w.

ashlee17

I think I am disappointed that there will be a less even playing field.
For those of us who are not face roll awesome- extra champion points and the associated boosts to our stats can and will be the difference between a win or a loss.

Why this is different to upgrading gear with gold?

We both have equal acess to earning gold in game reguardless of the size of our wallets.

At least we did have equal access...

But now paying subs gives us a gold advantage as well...

So in order to feel like my victories are all my own and not my wallets I should unsubscribe to forgo these advantages?

I don't mind paying a sub atm, but when it gives me a advantage over others because I do... Makes me feel uneasy...

Shinra

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Shinra wrote: »

Right now, as far as I know, You won't get experience boost in the cash shop but only for your sub.

And as I have already played quite a few pay2win games, believe me, you don't know how far that can go. If I would put it in levels,

Level 1: p2w: You can get a few things, like 10% exp boost, or a horse that's cheaper than ingame.
Level 5: You get serious advantages, like 100% exp boosts, many expensive items (like Panacea of Spell Power) can be baught in the cashshop. Or you can buy ingame gold for real money.
Level 7: You can now buy gear as good as in endgame dungeons in the cashshop. You can also activate some skill lines only in the cashshop.
Level 9: You can get better things in the cash shop than in the game. You can enhance your Spell Power, Resistances and Mana and Life points by at least 33 % with cash shop products.
Level 10: Even more bonuses, and the core element is a cash shop lottery which you need to pay for to get a chance to get the best cash shop products. If you invest enough money, we are talking about +300% Exp and Gold bonuses, many unique things like changing your race to dremora and get serious race advantages. And you get items for doubling your HP, spell power or mana reg. or ulti. reg for a specific amount of time, and many skills and powerful ultimates which you will only get in the cash shop.

So yes, this game is definitely a weak form of p2w. But still, I am not worried. There is a long way to go till it will actually become a "true" p2w game which may take 3-5 or more years, even if they decide to go that road.

I gotta ask. What games did this?

@WraithAzraiel

As for the top, that's gotta be Cosmic Break. Pure level 10. You play with a team of three characters which you can change. In the cash shop lottery you can get characters with about 50% increased stats, you can get the best boosters (similar to glyphs in eso) and +300% enhancements for gold and xp, as well as many of the best weapons only in the lottery. The level of power you have would be something like: 30 % when you don't use real money, 55% when you use real money, but no lottery. 100% with lottery.

Onigiri would be level 9. Ingame trading between players can only be done with the real money ingame-currency, many useful items can only be bought in the cash shop (including lottery) like protectors which you may use when upgrading weapons to remove the chance of the items breaking, as well as many "skill cards" which are used to learn skills. And, of course, quite powerful XP boosters and gold boosters as well as the "Soul gems" from Onigiri.

Guild wars 2 is level 5 for a while now and is doing good, appearently. (Ingame gold can be bought for crystals or something and those can be bought by real money) Real money gives a huge advantage, but you can still buy everything with a lot of playtime.

SFBryan18

Skill =/= Time/Money =/= Win

Skill + Time/Money = Win

Nathan

So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...

The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.

If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.

It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...

Razzak

Nathan wrote: »

So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...

The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.

If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.

It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...

It's not only if cash shop items give you an advantage over in game crafted ones when you buy them. It's also about the fact that cash shop items could make crafted ones obsolete or useless. Simply by scaling, which crafted ones do not.

You will buy health potions at lvl 20 but use them all the way to lvl 50 as they scale with you. Why would anyone buy crafted ones?
Crafted potions are limited to every 10 levels, which could make them special potions to use only around those levels. In between those levels, you might be better off with cash shop ones.

So, will this affect crafting?

Nathan

Razzak wrote: »

Nathan wrote: »

So Rings of Mara, in your opinion, were Pay2Win ingame objects too...

The game is not going P2W actually unless ZOS decide to put in the Crown store gear and/or weapons and/or skill lines that really aren't available playing the game.

If you can buy through Crown store potions that you can get in game it's just a time saving option.

It's the same story of players who play a lot and get best gear through Trials or PVP that other players who play just during w/e can't get for now...

It's not only if cash shop items give you an advantage over in game crafted ones when you buy them. It's also about the fact that cash shop items could make crafted ones obsolete or useless. Simply by scaling, which crafted ones do not.

You will buy health potions at lvl 20 but use them all the way to lvl 50 as they scale with you. Why would anyone buy crafted ones?
Crafted potions are limited to every 10 levels, which could make them special potions to use only around those levels. In between those levels, you might be better off with cash shop ones.

So, will this affect crafting?

I don't think this will affect crafting, because gold is a currency you can get in game (even farm it) and spend with no problem buying potion crafted when you need it; Crowns is a currency you can't farm in game, so I think people will save Crowns for DLC/Costumes/Mounts or everything else you can't get normally playing the game.

kongkim

Boosters is not P2W, as all can get there without any big problems.
If there was items that gave an advantage that made pvp or pve easier that you could only get from the shop that would be P2W. But there is not, so all fine.