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A Vocal Minority - And Welcome New Interested Players!
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Melian✭✭✭✭It's hilarious when people make grandiose, pompous statements about how grandiose they think other people are being.
Usually the vocal minority is expressing the same opinion the silent majority is thinking - at least when the majority isn't too ignorant to have an opinion at all.Edited by Melian on January 22, 2015 3:13PM3 -
Exactly Kong. They leave, forums go quiet, and just get full of people asking questions for a few days while they learn the game, brilliant!
Customer service get more happy about posting on the forums as they are less worried about getting forums ambushed cos some 40 year old virgin thinks they owe him personally a copy of the patch notes for something they are still working on.
We get more people to play with who are actually fun, via B2P, and more people to sell stuff to, group with, kill in pop and so on.
We get fun stuff that we can spend cash on to show those guys who sit at home on the dole playing ESO 20 hours a day the benefits of getting a job and contributing to society! it's a win win!!
People being worried about this is not frivolous; it is pattern recognition based on experience with other games. Traditionaly this sort of transition has not been a good thing, but just a way to extend the death of a failing game. That is why people are upset, not because they don't want to pay (or because they don't have jobs, very presumptuous there buddy
many probably have better jobs than you!).
That is a very gross assumption. You have no idea what he does for work, nor does he know what others do.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »lol, question, what do you think sub money is spent on if not salaries, etc for future game development? Do they section off sub money and under no circumstances let it directly or indirectly be used for development of the game?
Paying a subscription don't qualify as funding, not in this case. Really is not that hard
His argument was that his sub money was used to develop the b2p model, to say that isn't true is saying that somehow the sub money is diverted away from game development. Is that what you think?
I'm sure it funds it, but it is not what we directly pay for. We pay for the service to log in every month. What they do with it at that point really is their business and its then their money.
I bought a frape at McDonalds the other day. They might have used that money for getting more chickent nuggets or working on their next McRib.
Yes, and then you maybe consume that McRib (a finished product).
We are talking about a service that requires our money to keep running & getting better (not worse).
You don't think McDonalds requires our money to get better?
And maybe I don't like McRibs. Doesn't matter. I had my Frape. In the same sense, maybe you won't like the new ESO. Doesn't matter, you had your month/months that you paid for.
End of the day, once you paid for your service and received that service; their obligation to you is done. Now whether it makes business sense to them on whether they use that money to try to continue to make you happy, or use it to try to appeal to some other potential customer is their business. Quite literally.Edited by technohic on January 22, 2015 3:16PM1 -
It's hilarious when people make grandiose, pompous statements about how grandiose they think other people are being.
Usually the vocal minority is expressing the same opinion the silent majority is thinking - at least when the majority isn't too ignorant to have an opinion at all.
based on what? maybe the vocal minority is just that: a minority who scream and shout.2 -
Vyle_Byte✭✭✭✭✭
✭You, OP, have a right to your opinion and thoughts. However, so does every other person. Even those you disagree with, those who are voicing them, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make them... "the equivalent of the crazy white bearded hobo walking through your city with a board round his neck that says 'The End is Nigh'!"
People are hurt, they are afraid of whats to come. Just because that isn't how you feel doesn't give you the right to judge them or to belittle them. You have a right to see whats going on through rose colored glasses, a little optimism isn't a bad thing. But, making others feel like they aren't justified in how they feel just because you don't see it that way doesn't make you right, either.
This thread is derailing. The insults aimed at each other are detrimental to a community on the verge of collapsing. Calling someone you don't know bitter.. (above poster) this is just wrong, just... stop. Flaming is never the way to get your point across.Member of the Old GuardMother of the Byte FamilyVyle Byte||Ivana Byte||Vyible Byte||Hakate Vampler Former EMPRESS BWB||Haan Zolo {Retired} (He swung first)||Lunari ||Wardyn Chalyk Tahno||Dirti Dianah||Bonnie||
Viva la Byte1 -
You, OP, have a right to your opinion and thoughts. However, so does every other person. Even those you disagree with, those who are voicing them, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make them... "the equivalent of the crazy white bearded hobo walking through your city with a board round his neck that says 'The End is Nigh'!"
People are hurt, they are afraid of whats to come. Just because that isn't how you feel doesn't give you the right to judge them or to belittle them. You have a right to see whats going on through rose colored glasses, a little optimism isn't a bad thing. But, making others feel like they aren't justified in how they feel just because you don't see it that way doesn't make you right, either.
This thread is derailing. The insults aimed at each other are detrimental to a community on the verge of collapsing. Calling someone you don't know bitter.. (above poster) this is just wrong, just... stop. Flaming is never the way to get your point across.
Everybody has the right to his own idea.
But it really isn't ok to be so emotional towards a game.
And many people are just talking out of their asses, using wrong notions to justify their view.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »lol, question, what do you think sub money is spent on if not salaries, etc for future game development? Do they section off sub money and under no circumstances let it directly or indirectly be used for development of the game?
Paying a subscription don't qualify as funding, not in this case. Really is not that hard
His argument was that his sub money was used to develop the b2p model, to say that isn't true is saying that somehow the sub money is diverted away from game development. Is that what you think?
I'm sure it funds it, but it is not what we directly pay for. We pay for the service to log in every month. What they do with it at that point really is their business and its then their money.
I bought a frape at McDonalds the other day. They might have used that money for getting more chickent nuggets or working on their next McRib.
Yes, and then you maybe consume that McRib (a finished product).
We are talking about a service that requires our money to keep running & getting better (not worse).
You don't think McDonalds requires our money to get better?
And maybe I don't like McRibs. Doesn't matter. I had my Frape. In the same sense, maybe you won't like the new ESO. Doesn't matter, you had your month/months that you paid for.
End of the day, once you paid for your service and received that service; their obligation to you is done. Now whether it makes business sense to them on whether they use that money to try to continue to make you happy, or use it to try to appeal to some other potential customer is their business. Quite literally.
And yet, McDonalds is not comparable to a MMO (as burgers & McRibs are finished products).
MMOs are not finished products, you do not consume them like a burger. They are around for the long run.
They are projects you fund & keep running as a subscriber, expecting them to get better over time.
Maybe you're new to MMOs, maybe you're just too used to dishonest companies.
Fact is, they're using the money we spent in things we do not want.
Since you like analogies, here's one:
You are building a home & you contract people to build one. The building goes well, until suddenly the house collapses.
The people building it tell you to enjoy the rubbles & go on their merry way building more houses.
^
This is MMO industry these days. This is what tolerance gets you.1 -
Grapdjan✭✭✭✭I was drawing a fair comparison. Trying to inject some brevity. Yesterday there were countless hyperbolic threads about betrayal, anger, disbelief etc. I am making the point that this is an overreaction, that for a few hundred people on the forums there are a few thousand who couldn't give a fig.
That there are many of us who consider b2p a far superior method of business and welcome it wholeheartedly.
I've been called a 'fanboi'. Hardly. I once play Morrowwind for a few weeks but quickly grew bored. The only reason I tried ESO is that I'm waiting for a different game to launch.
I've played a lot of MMOs, UO, EQ, EQ2, AoC, TSW, W*, god knows how many others. I usually partially engage with relevant forums, and upon reading all the crap that was flying on here since the happy b2p announcement, decided to comment.
To whoever it was, when I said I felt sorry for the hysterical ones, I meant I felt sympathy, not pity for them.
Vyle_Byte, what I feel I far more damaging to any game us the amount of pure bile and nonsense posted on the announcement, which could clearly have an effect on any inquisitive possible new players attracted by the revised superior price plan.1 -
Mangybeard✭✭✭Being mad about time invested into a game that's changing it's payment model is not healthy. That investment is worth nothing except the memories you have of it, yet you're all acting like you built a boat by hand and someone snuck into your garage and burned it.
Honestly though, despite that attempt at wit, I do understand. I'm just saying it's not worth the stress. Don't let yourself get negative. If this game is causing you problems it's time to move on.
I can't say I've never been upset at something silly, but I can say it's never too soon to let go and move on.2 -
Vyle_Byte✭✭✭✭✭
✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »
But it really isn't ok to be so emotional towards a game.
And many people are just talking out of their asses, using wrong notions to justify their view.
But emotions are human nature, and no one... not you, not me, not anyone has a right to say how and when and for what. That is not our right. What IS our right is to voice our 'opinions' and 'emotions' in a constructive manner and accept that people will have different views. Not to judge them for it. That is my point.
Member of the Old GuardMother of the Byte FamilyVyle Byte||Ivana Byte||Vyible Byte||Hakate Vampler Former EMPRESS BWB||Haan Zolo {Retired} (He swung first)||Lunari ||Wardyn Chalyk Tahno||Dirti Dianah||Bonnie||
Viva la Byte2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »You, OP, have a right to your opinion and thoughts. However, so does every other person. Even those you disagree with, those who are voicing them, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make them... "the equivalent of the crazy white bearded hobo walking through your city with a board round his neck that says 'The End is Nigh'!"
People are hurt, they are afraid of whats to come. Just because that isn't how you feel doesn't give you the right to judge them or to belittle them. You have a right to see whats going on through rose colored glasses, a little optimism isn't a bad thing. But, making others feel like they aren't justified in how they feel just because you don't see it that way doesn't make you right, either.
This thread is derailing. The insults aimed at each other are detrimental to a community on the verge of collapsing. Calling someone you don't know bitter.. (above poster) this is just wrong, just... stop. Flaming is never the way to get your point across.
Everybody has the right to his own idea.
But it really isn't ok to be so emotional towards a game.
And many people are just talking out of their asses, using wrong notions to justify their view.
And that is just the anti-gamer attitude that disgusts me these days, oh so popular among the B2P/F2P crowd that thinks they're "gamers" because they play 2 hours a week and feel entitled to everything real gamers work hard for because $$$
Some people take their passions more seriously, learn to live & respect it.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 3:45PM5 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭4 pages, and still no empirical evidence that the people upset about this change are a "minority"?
You may criticize that the polls held in the forums are not representative (of what, exactly?), but that absolutely does not mean the inverse is true.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Grapdjan✭✭✭✭So Real Gamers (tm) feel their life style is under threat from what, amateur gamers, what? A casual game such as ESO is a natural for B2P.1
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭And? They are a business exploring ways to make more revenue.
By lying to their customers. Great company you're supporting there.Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||2 -
Grapdjan✭✭✭✭I don't care what they say or don't say. I just want to be able to log in occasionally and play the game. The company that makes the game that keeps the gamer in the loop doesn't exist. If you want that I'm afraid you will need to start your own.0
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Csub✭✭✭✭✭I defended ZOS more often than not, I was also called fanboi a few times, however I have to agree with the people who are upset, or worried at the very least. We.all have seen how games can go downhill from this point. The two main risks are an unfair item shop that requires you to spend additional money even as a subscriber, while the other is the case of SWTOR. Sure, your cannot buy p2w items there if I recall correctly but the amount of new content coming is ridicolusly low and not too frequent, however there is always something new in the shop.
If they keep up the frequent updates and no necessary or p2w item or gear is coming to the store I'm happy Because I will just keep subscribing, enjoying the new content and being happy that the game is doing well and we have a lot of people. Unfortunately, however, I doubt this will be the case since we have seen how games end up with a cash shop. Sure ZOS said it will be alright but I hope you will forgive me if I dont really believe them anymore.Edited by Csub on January 22, 2015 3:54PM"The Divines gave you a nose for a reason, Tharn. So you can keep your mouth shut and still keep breathing. - Lyris Titanborn2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't care what they say or don't say. I just want to be able to log in occasionally and play the game. The company that makes the game that keeps the gamer in the loop doesn't exist. If you want that I'm afraid you will need to start your own.
CD Projekt Red.
The last hope of gaming, I truly hope they make a MMO one day.2 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Vocal Minority is a terminology used to discredit any public movements. Even if a million people took to the streets, technically they'd be a minority compared to the world's, country's and even a city's population.
Please erase that term from your vocabulary, it undermines your very own democratic power."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"3 -
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/health/sitting-will-kill-you/index.html
Sitting for more than 8 hours per day can increase your risk for type 2 diabetes mellitus by 90%. Stop playing video games, go outisde, and get some exercise!
Hooorayyy!2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A Vocal Minority?
Do you mean 90% of the people you talk to in the forums or in game?
Because if that is the case, I don't know whether you're ignorant or just trolling.
Perhaps he's basing his comment on the 80% of posters who stated in a poll on this forum that they were staying, with almost two-thirds of those who voted saying they intended to continue subscribing under ESO Plus. That does indeed leave a minority who are leaving, and they're being pretty vocal about it so I'd say he was right on both counts.3 -
burningcrow✭✭✭There is a pole right now that shows this minority you speak of is in fact the majority. Just saying.3
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Grapdjan✭✭✭✭A Vocal Minority?
Do you mean 90% of the people you talk to in the forums or in game?
Because if that is the case, I don't know whether you're ignorant or just trolling.
Perhaps he's basing his comment on the 80% of posters who stated in a poll on this forum that they were staying, with almost two-thirds of those who voted saying they intended to continue subscribing under ESO Plus. That does indeed leave a minority who are leaving, and they're being pretty vocal about it so I'd say he was right on both counts.
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The_Great_Maldini wrote: »http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/health/sitting-will-kill-you/index.html
Sitting for more than 8 hours per day can increase your risk for type 2 diabetes mellitus by 90%. Stop playing video games, go outisde, and get some exercise!
Hooorayyy!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130821094924.htm
Playing certain video games train your brain to become more agile and increase your strategic thinking.
Also, I didn't know being a gamer & going outside were mutually exclusive. Last I checked, days were composed of 24 hours.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 3:58PM2 -
Heruthema✭✭✭✭I agree with the OP. I am here to stay and do not see the doom and gloom that is over taking the forum. This a fantastic game and will only get better.4 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »lol, question, what do you think sub money is spent on if not salaries, etc for future game development? Do they section off sub money and under no circumstances let it directly or indirectly be used for development of the game?
Paying a subscription don't qualify as funding, not in this case. Really is not that hard
His argument was that his sub money was used to develop the b2p model, to say that isn't true is saying that somehow the sub money is diverted away from game development. Is that what you think?
I'm sure it funds it, but it is not what we directly pay for. We pay for the service to log in every month. What they do with it at that point really is their business and its then their money.
I bought a frape at McDonalds the other day. They might have used that money for getting more chickent nuggets or working on their next McRib.
Yes, and then you maybe consume that McRib (a finished product).
We are talking about a service that requires our money to keep running & getting better (not worse).
You don't think McDonalds requires our money to get better?
And maybe I don't like McRibs. Doesn't matter. I had my Frape. In the same sense, maybe you won't like the new ESO. Doesn't matter, you had your month/months that you paid for.
End of the day, once you paid for your service and received that service; their obligation to you is done. Now whether it makes business sense to them on whether they use that money to try to continue to make you happy, or use it to try to appeal to some other potential customer is their business. Quite literally.
And yet, McDonalds is not comparable to a MMO (as burgers & McRibs are finished products).
MMOs are not finished products, you do not consume them like a burger. They are around for the long run.
They are projects you fund & keep running as a subscriber, expecting them to get better over time.
Maybe you're new to MMOs, maybe you're just too used to dishonest companies.
Fact is, they're using the money we spent in things we do not want.
Since you like analogies, here's one:
You are building a home & you contract people to build one. The building goes well, until suddenly the house collapses.
The people building it tell you to enjoy the rubbles & go on their merry way building more houses.
^
This is MMO industry these days. This is what tolerance gets you.
I'm not comparing the 2 products or service. What I am comparing is the relationship of a business to a customer. It's really what many of you are failing to understand yet want to talk about what you pay for. You paid for product and service. You received product and service. In any event you do not like the product or service or find that it does not meet your requirements, then you stop paying for it the same that they can change their business model if it no longer is benefiting them. The end.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A Vocal Minority?
Do you mean 90% of the people you talk to in the forums or in game?
Because if that is the case, I don't know whether you're ignorant or just trolling.
Perhaps he's basing his comment on the 80% of posters who stated in a poll on this forum that they were staying, with almost two-thirds of those who voted saying they intended to continue subscribing under ESO Plus. That does indeed leave a minority who are leaving, and they're being pretty vocal about it so I'd say he was right on both counts.
Do you mean the biased poll made by @Neizir? I didn't even bother to vote on it because of the wording.
This here is an unbiased poll: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/146847/how-do-you-feel-about-the-b2p-announcement/p13 -
grimjim398✭✭✭This is a little different from the endless posts about how this or that class is overpowered or about how evil Zenimax nerfed one class or boosted another. This is a change to the way we pay for the game and the very basic issue of what a cash shop can do to a game. So you can minimize people's reactions all you want, but you won't stop them. This is a fundamental change to the game that will cause a lot of people to re-evaluate their relationship to it. It will certainly send a lot of people out of the game and it will just as certainly attract a lot of people to the game. No, it's not the end of the world or the game. But it exposes Zenimax as a company that is essentially clueless, so that if you stay you have no idea what the game is actually going to turn into. People don't like it and if they are paying a subscription they have every right to come to the forums to express their opinions. Good for you that this is an easy transition for you to accept. My whole reason for trying this MMO is that it was a subscription model and the change away from that is going to send me elsewhere. I don't ask that you share my opinion but I'm not one of the people who has made a career of posting on these forums; to dismiss all of us who are upset about this as silly whiners is just as ridiculous as the behavior that you point out in your post. You have absolutely no idea how many people are actually upset by this, you are simply trying to reassure yourself and others that we are simply a silly tiny minority. I am pretty sure you are wrong about the notion that there are only a few people mad about this change. But I'm not delusional enough to think that our numbers are great enough to change the mind of the developers or that this game will die because we leave. I don't care whether the game survives or not; I just don't want to play it any more, and I have the right to say so as long as I post in a civil way. In thirteen days I won't be able to post any more and you won't have to put up with my opinions at that point.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »lol, question, what do you think sub money is spent on if not salaries, etc for future game development? Do they section off sub money and under no circumstances let it directly or indirectly be used for development of the game?
Paying a subscription don't qualify as funding, not in this case. Really is not that hard
His argument was that his sub money was used to develop the b2p model, to say that isn't true is saying that somehow the sub money is diverted away from game development. Is that what you think?
I'm sure it funds it, but it is not what we directly pay for. We pay for the service to log in every month. What they do with it at that point really is their business and its then their money.
I bought a frape at McDonalds the other day. They might have used that money for getting more chickent nuggets or working on their next McRib.
Yes, and then you maybe consume that McRib (a finished product).
We are talking about a service that requires our money to keep running & getting better (not worse).
You don't think McDonalds requires our money to get better?
And maybe I don't like McRibs. Doesn't matter. I had my Frape. In the same sense, maybe you won't like the new ESO. Doesn't matter, you had your month/months that you paid for.
End of the day, once you paid for your service and received that service; their obligation to you is done. Now whether it makes business sense to them on whether they use that money to try to continue to make you happy, or use it to try to appeal to some other potential customer is their business. Quite literally.
And yet, McDonalds is not comparable to a MMO (as burgers & McRibs are finished products).
MMOs are not finished products, you do not consume them like a burger. They are around for the long run.
They are projects you fund & keep running as a subscriber, expecting them to get better over time.
Maybe you're new to MMOs, maybe you're just too used to dishonest companies.
Fact is, they're using the money we spent in things we do not want.
Since you like analogies, here's one:
You are building a home & you contract people to build one. The building goes well, until suddenly the house collapses.
The people building it tell you to enjoy the rubbles & go on their merry way building more houses.
^
This is MMO industry these days. This is what tolerance gets you.
I'm not comparing the 2 products or service. What I am comparing is the relationship of a business to a customer. It's really what many of you are failing to understand yet want to talk about what you pay for. You paid for product and service. You received product and service. In any event you do not like the product or service or find that it does not meet your requirements, then you stop paying for it the same that they can change their business model if it no longer is benefiting them. The end.
You are not comparing two comparable analogies, only the ones that suit your flawed argument? Very well.
You have fairly low standards then on how you expect people to treat you.
I'd be pretty pissed if someone was building a home for me (and people like me) with my money, but then gave it away to someone else just stating: "hey, you can still continue to live here, but you'll have to share it with these simpletons & pay 10x more to access the full house".1 -
Rescorla_ESO✭✭✭✭
And that is just the anti-gamer attitude that disgusts me these days, oh so popular among the B2P/F2P crowd that thinks they're "gamers" because they play 2 hours a week and feel entitled to everything real gamers work hard for because $$$
Some people take their passions more seriously, learn to live & respect it.
Wait a second. The doom and gloomers have been proclaiming the F2P/B2P crowd is going to "ruin the community". Now you just proclaimed "the B2P/F2P crowd that thinks they're "gamers" because they play 2 hours a week..."
How can the B2P/F2P crowd ruin the community if they only play a couple hours a week?
FYI that was a rhetorical question.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rescorla_ESO wrote: »
And that is just the anti-gamer attitude that disgusts me these days, oh so popular among the B2P/F2P crowd that thinks they're "gamers" because they play 2 hours a week and feel entitled to everything real gamers work hard for because $$$
Some people take their passions more seriously, learn to live & respect it.
Wait a second. The doom and gloomers have been proclaiming the F2P/B2P crowd is going to "ruin the community". Now you just proclaimed "the B2P/F2P crowd that thinks they're "gamers" because they play 2 hours a week..."
How can the B2P/F2P crowd ruin the community if they only play a couple hours a week?
FYI that was a rhetorical question.
Well, let me treat it as a normal question because it has a normal answer:
There is a lot more of B2P/F2P crowd. While you might not see the same person online a lot, you'll see 10 others just like him.Edited by DDuke on January 22, 2015 4:12PM2