A Vocal Minority - And Welcome New Interested Players!

Razzak

Heruthema wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I am not sure what everyone is crying about. You have nothing to lose at this point. You own the game so play it, dont sub if you want, you have that choice now. If the game sucks later, leave, if not stay. No One Knows how this will turn out.
I really do not care what happen to SWOTR, LOTR, whatever MMO you name. You still do not know how it will turn out.

Maybe there are players more invested in the game than you, who don't want to wave away thousands of hours of character progression?

There's some food for thought...

I have as much if not more time invested in this game as you. So take your elitist attitude and ...
My statement still stands, what do you have to lose? Nothing! And you do not KNOW how this will turn out no matter how many MMO's you have under your elitist belt.

No one knows, but you would have to be a completely naive vegetable to believe they will suddenly develope care for their community. Like many have already said, we've been paying them for the development of cash shop and console version. Do you really think they will suddenly have a change of heart and start developing more content than cash shop items? 1.6 is the last big change that is coming for a long time.

morvegil

tons of people in game who dont post on the forums are pissed.

Heruthema

Aga

Razzak wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I am not sure what everyone is crying about. You have nothing to lose at this point. You own the game so play it, dont sub if you want, you have that choice now. If the game sucks later, leave, if not stay. No One Knows how this will turn out.
I really do not care what happen to SWOTR, LOTR, whatever MMO you name. You still do not know how it will turn out.

Maybe there are players more invested in the game than you, who don't want to wave away thousands of hours of character progression?

There's some food for thought...

I have as much if not more time invested in this game as you. So take your elitist attitude and ...
My statement still stands, what do you have to lose? Nothing! And you do not KNOW how this will turn out no matter how many MMO's you have under your elitist belt.

No one knows, but you would have to be a completely naive vegetable to believe they will suddenly develope care for their community. Like many have already said, we've been paying them for the development of cash shop and console version. Do you really think they will suddenly have a change of heart and start developing more content than cash shop items? 1.6 is the last big change that is coming for a long time.

Again you do not know and you have nothing to lose now that you do not have to pay to see what happens.

DDuke

Heruthema wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

I am not sure what everyone is crying about. You have nothing to lose at this point. You own the game so play it, dont sub if you want, you have that choice now. If the game sucks later, leave, if not stay. No One Knows how this will turn out.
I really do not care what happen to SWOTR, LOTR, whatever MMO you name. You still do not know how it will turn out.

Maybe there are players more invested in the game than you, who don't want to wave away thousands of hours of character progression?

There's some food for thought...

I have as much if not more time invested in this game as you. So take your elitist attitude and ...
My statement still stands, what do you have to lose? Nothing! And you do not KNOW how this will turn out no matter how many MMO's you have under your elitist belt.

What have I to lose?

What was supposed to be my "home" for the next years to come, that's all. It's getting burned down by console peasants & corporate greed.


How nice you know how much I have invested in this game by the way. I didn't know I was that famous.

Or was that just another pompous statement the internet is full of?

Heruthema

morvegil wrote: »

tons of people in game who dont post on the forums are pissed.

And you know this how?

bugmom

Thank you for this post! I wholeheartedly agree. I'm looking forward to the new content and features and am happy that ZOS has a strategy that will hopefully grow the user base and increase funding for even more new content to come.

Razzak

bugmom wrote: »

Thank you for this post! I wholeheartedly agree. I'm looking forward to the new content and features and am happy that ZOS has a strategy that will hopefully grow the user base and increase funding for even more new content to come.

More cash shop items and one or two content upgrades per year.

VirtualElizabeth

I say 15% of the population are of the subgroup I call whiners/emo forum ragers. Of this subgroup in regards to the DRAMA regarding the crown store, this is my prediction:

25% Will actually quit
25% Will rage quit for a month then come back and play when no sub is required
50% Will rage quit for a week then come back and continue to play the game as if nothing happened.

In other words, most of the people playing are the nice friendly type who genuinely enjoy the game. Ignore the forums folks, newbies or not. Even ignore me if you like.

eventide03b14a_ESO

OP you just don't get it man. Seriously. If I wanted to play WoW I would be playing WoW. I wanted to play Elder Scrolls Online. This change in focus is a bad idea. At every turn they completely ignore the wishes of their player base, make empty promises, or just plain ignore us. I'm not faulting you for enjoying this game, but likewise don't dismiss those of us that are extremely disappointed that this game barely resembles a TES game. You make a lot of assumptions about people that voice their discontent for this game. I don't think it's fair. You want to come on here and see nothing but the praises of ZOS? Who does that help?

Korah_Eaglecry

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Grapdjan wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

theres a poll on the B2P transition consisting of 754 votes, of which 64% are currently against the change. 95% of those that voted are probably happily playing the game, but 64% are still not happy with the transition. yes, some are quitting and saying so. its called an emotional reaction. they are emotionally invested in a game that fit a style they preferred. now that it doesn't, they are behaving like people do- anger.

65% of a 754 people who bothered to vote, out of an extremely small segment of the ESO player base are behaving like children do - anger. The rest of the population are unaware of what is being posted on the forums as they are at work/school looking forward to playing for an hour or two later, or are happily playing away totally unconcerned about any pricing changes.

i would rather be angry than apathetic. but then your word usage doesnt really indicate you are NOT angry either.... so are you the pot or the kettle?

His words, if you didnt have reading comprehension issues, indicate his personal opinion on the change doesnt drive him to throw temper tantrums.

The funny thing about all of this is when anyone decides not to join your raging townsfolk riot you decide THEY must be the enemy and attack. Why would ANYONE with a sense of control want to join in on that?

Morshire

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I say 15% of the population are of the subgroup I call whiners/emo forum ragers. Of this subgroup in regards to the DRAMA regarding the crown store, this is my prediction:

25% Will actually quit
25% Will rage quit for a month then come back and play when no sub is required
50% Will rage quit for a week then come back and continue to play the game as if nothing happened.

In other words, most of the people playing are the nice friendly type who genuinely enjoy the game. Ignore the forums folks, newbies or not. Even ignore me if you like.

ROTFLMFAO - Oh this is rich.

Well I think 95% of the people "liking" this change are 100% off their rockers, but 86.5% of them are actually decent folk. The rest of the 23%, 50% are smokers (and I mean the kind that makes ya smile) while the other 53% are off yelling about the 47.3% that aren't voting. What does all this mean.....IDK, but the numbers don't lie my friend.

purple-magicb16_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

New players?
Do you mean those cheap people that thought ESO wasn't "good enough" to warrant subscription?

A Vocal Minority?
Do you mean 90% of the people you talk to in the forums or in game?

Because if that is the case, I don't know whether you're ignorant or just trolling.

The reason people are angry, is because ZOS is doing something (with money that the consumers invested for betterment of the game) that they don't want.
ZOS is essentially cashing out in order to get the worst elements of humanity to play this game.

People have all the right to be pissed off.

Awesome!! Yes OP, PLEASE do enjoy the game that we paid for and when all is said and done got absolutley nothing for our loyalty. This troll thread should be shut down.

eventide03b14a_ESO

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

New players?
Do you mean those cheap people that thought ESO wasn't "good enough" to warrant subscription?

A Vocal Minority?
Do you mean 90% of the people you talk to in the forums or in game?

Because if that is the case, I don't know whether you're ignorant or just trolling.

The reason people are angry, is because ZOS is doing something (with money that the consumers invested for betterment of the game) that they don't want.
ZOS is essentially cashing out in order to get the worst elements of humanity to play this game.

People have all the right to be pissed off.

Awesome!! Yes OP, PLEASE do enjoy the game that we paid for and when all is said and done got absolutley nothing for our loyalty. This troll thread should be shut down.

Yes, but you know it won't. I'm sure ZOS is very comfortable with the place that the OP's mouth currently is.

Languish4567

So i am not a big forum poster, but this particular topic has drawn my attention enough to weigh in. The original poster is likely wrong about the number of people that disagree with this decision, given the number of very large guilds I am a part of and discussion in PUG groups I find myself in the negative has been nearly unanimous. My main concern is that in less than two days this topic has more than twenty pages worth of comments on multiple threads, yet the devs have not chimed in to try and say anything that may make us feel any better about this.

Having been apart of this game since beta, this decision certainly feels as if we have been paying for a very long beta test and now that they are ready to drop this game on consoles they are quickly turning their backs on those of us that have paid for a years worth of membership at this point. Further more, it has become impossible to believe the promises that they continue to make. I have one VT14 character and one VT1, the VT14 was a VT 10 before craglorn and it took many hours to get the exp to garner that level in a world with V5 monsters that would make the monsters in crag look like a joke now, but the devs said its all good we see all the work you've put into the game and will reward you for it, then nerfed the exp required for levels by a crap ton, i.g. 14 million experience to go from VT13 VT14 to 1 million experience for VT14 and nerfed the enemies so much that solo content is just a joke that you burn through on your way to end game. Add that to the undaunted problem which is to say those of us that earned trophies towards undaunted ranks got crapped on when they actually made it worth while. Then they said even if you have a VT14 keep playing, we're tracking your exp for the new champion system, oops no sorry we tracked some of it on one of your characters and you will get a minimal advantage for all of that hard work, but keep playing those alts who will be extremely nerfed compared to the v14 you dump those 75 champion points you get day one regardless of the number of hours played or the number of maxed alts you have, after which you're going to need to pick the one character you actually want to play and continue to dump all of those champion points into it if you want to be able to be invited to raids or not get smoked in PVP. Not to mention their promise to boost characters to keep things level instead of nerfing them, trust me on this I'm a very nerfed sorc, former vampire, given that being a vampire or werewolf really can make end game content nearly impossible, given the abilities they have nerfed make the negatives impossible to overcome.

Unfortunately this time they have not given a viable reason to keep playing. I'm leveled out and nearly geared out, and have been playing nearly the same content with diminishing returns for months now. Why should I keep playing my alt and waist time or content that could help gain champion points whenever 1.6 finally does drop. Aside from the fact that I have months left on my membership. Honestly if I had the ability to suspend my account until 1.6 does drop so that I am not wasting money playing a game that has halted progression until they drop their next patch, that was promised to be every 4-6 weeks, when now it will be sometime between November and April. Remember I payed for the 6 month subscriptions because we were promised new content regularly, that has not come. That said I can make pretty armor, very important.

I make that point, because it explains why those of us that chose to drink the kool-aid early on are getting a bit tired of the flavor. Now they are adding a crown shop, but its just for basic stuff and not P2W, it will be unobtrusive and not mess with the lore. In what world have they done anything to justify anybody believing that.

My other point is to those people who seem to believe that the devs are listening to our concerns. PVP has been screwed up since release and if you don't believe me or don't know, run through the forums you will see thousands of posts about the issues, yet PVP is still screwed up and they are going to add more content to it prior to fixing the content that is already there, but I guess those posters are just whiners too, they should shut up and accept what they have been given.

I am glad that the original poster and others seem quick to jump on the bandwagon for the next round of screw the people who have been paying for this game, and keeping the monthly subscriber and daily player numbers looking good to investors, but honestly its getting a bit old. I have months left on my subscription so I'm not going to jump in with the rage quit crowd, but once its done, if this latest round is as bad as it could be, it maybe time to find the next good MMO and give it a shot, or maybe Bethesda will have released the next Fallout or Elder Scrolls game, that is actually an Elder Scrolls game and not a cheap knockoff, so that I can spend 60 bucks and get as many hours of enjoyment without having to spend the $260 I have thus-far to play a game with less content, replay ability, and many many more headaches, for those casual players that don't know what end games like being dc'ed in AA or Hellra is very common and having to try and run back through hoards of enemies that are avoidable with a group but will cost loads of deaths to a single player is a real pain in the butt.

Finally to those of you that think its all going to be alright and it's just us vocal minority that think this is going to be bad, you obviously are not endgame raiding or pvping and actually talking to the people who play this game a lot, and you're definitely not one of those with 2 or more VT14 alts that are really about to get screwed. Yes this will probably grab some new players, but they are the ones that will pay the sixty bucks enjoy the game for a month or two and ditch, but that will be long enough for ZOS to pay their shareholders as the game begins to circle the drain, because us whiners that are willing to pay the monthly fee will slowly erode away as ZOS has to keep adding new crap to the cash store to try and stay sustainable, but why should you care were just a bunch of whiners anyway.

Yasha

Welcome new players, thankfully these haters th

Desdemonte wrote: »

To the OP @Grapdjan‌, I will attempt to explain this to you. I do not know your past history with MMOs, but I have to guess you are somewhat new to them. This is going to be a long read, but if you really care about the topic you started and want to get an insight into the people here who are upset, you'll read it. I will attempt to be as neutral and non-condescending as I can.

My belief is that this all comes down to a matter of experience in the MMO world. Let me elaborate:

I see MMO players as one of 2 types- New and Old, with "Intermediate" kind of wavering between the two. Some of the Intermediate subset will be new enough to lean toward the New and optimistic viewpoint and some will be old enough to lean toward the more pessimistic (some would say realistic, or experienced) viewpoint. The Intermediate subset probably cancels itself out in general mindset, and things like polls, etc. Then there is the very small subset that can pretty much be ignored because they also balance each other out. These are the people who have no objectivity and are either absolute Fanbois or Haters.

I used to be new and optimistic. My first MMO was DDO. I found it completely by chance a couple weeks after it went F2P. I actually thought it was a scam at first. I'd never heard of this ability to play a game for free. I didn't even have to buy the base game! I thought it was awesome! I always wanted to try WoW but couldn't afford the sub. I had one buddy who tried out Everquest in college. It looked like a cool idea, but eventually he couldn't afford the sub either.

So as a total bright eyed newb, I joined the DDO forums to learn how to play the game. They were pretty good forums. I played that game like an addiction for 3 years. I frigging loved it. I was very passionate about it. But then the cash stop started pushing the boundaries a little bit, seeing what they could get away with selling for money. Experienced players started screaming P2W and began leaving the game. The game was hurt a little bit by losing those experienced players.

The recoil on the forums settled a bit. DDO bided it's time but then pushed their boundaries again. Same screaming, more people leaving. More brain drain. The game was hurt further and the player population suffered a bit more because of it.

The cycle repeated again and again and again. Most serious players were leaving in droves. The game became more and more built around casual players (and no, I am not using this term in a derogatory manner here). This made it into more of a Facebook type game. Everybody became self sufficient because the game became so easy. Most content could be soloed. There was no need to be social, so the Multiplayer aspect went down, down, down. The game became completely P2W, or Pay to not have to Play and Still Get What You Want. No challenge at all. The game is now a hollow shell of what it was when I joined when it just went F2P.

I tried other games along the way that have used the same or similar F2P or B2P models. In order, they were Aion, SWToR, GW2 and The Secret World. So, not a lot, but a pretty good representation of the most popular MMOs out there. I would consider myself of Intermediate experience, leaning toward the Old group of pessimists.

Moving away from a sub-based P2P model is generally great for a failing game initially. It brings many more people to the game and rejuvenates it. The problem is that over time, the company realizes they are not making a sustainable amount from the cash shop and need to add more stuff to it. It slowly becomes P2W.

At first, new players don't care about that. I didn't, that's for sure. But the longer I was in DDO, the better I got, the more experienced I got, the more time I spent making my characters incrementally better, the more I became sensitive to the changes happening around me to the game. Then one day I looked around and saw that they had completely ruined the challenge of the game and it became very boring. It's like having the cheat codes for a single player game. That's OK if you just want to see the story, but that part doesn't take long. The sustainability and replay-ability is gone. Most players don't like that and leave. The MMO then becomes a Facebook game.

It may take a year, or two or even three for this to happen if your lucky. But depending on your tolerance of the downside, the game you love will be ruined. Maybe this does not matter to you?

There is no TL;DR version of this. If you want to understand, then read it. If you want to remain ignorant, don't. I don't really give a damn.

I often read drivel like this from sub fanatics. You take an example of one game and try to twist that to suit your argument, blithely ignoring successful games with a b2p model (you don't even seem to understand the difference between f2p and b2p) and sub games that have failed miserably, or ended up going down a similar path despite the magical game tax.

Abr4hn

Grapdjan wrote: »

Overall outcome? MMOs going F2P brings Western World out of global recession as people leave their bedrooms.

Close, but I think you meant "basements" instead of "bedrooms". Other than that, it was spot on

DDuke

Yasha wrote: »

Welcome new players, thankfully these haters th

Desdemonte wrote: »

To the OP @Grapdjan‌, I will attempt to explain this to you. I do not know your past history with MMOs, but I have to guess you are somewhat new to them. This is going to be a long read, but if you really care about the topic you started and want to get an insight into the people here who are upset, you'll read it. I will attempt to be as neutral and non-condescending as I can.

My belief is that this all comes down to a matter of experience in the MMO world. Let me elaborate:

I see MMO players as one of 2 types- New and Old, with "Intermediate" kind of wavering between the two. Some of the Intermediate subset will be new enough to lean toward the New and optimistic viewpoint and some will be old enough to lean toward the more pessimistic (some would say realistic, or experienced) viewpoint. The Intermediate subset probably cancels itself out in general mindset, and things like polls, etc. Then there is the very small subset that can pretty much be ignored because they also balance each other out. These are the people who have no objectivity and are either absolute Fanbois or Haters.

I used to be new and optimistic. My first MMO was DDO. I found it completely by chance a couple weeks after it went F2P. I actually thought it was a scam at first. I'd never heard of this ability to play a game for free. I didn't even have to buy the base game! I thought it was awesome! I always wanted to try WoW but couldn't afford the sub. I had one buddy who tried out Everquest in college. It looked like a cool idea, but eventually he couldn't afford the sub either.

So as a total bright eyed newb, I joined the DDO forums to learn how to play the game. They were pretty good forums. I played that game like an addiction for 3 years. I frigging loved it. I was very passionate about it. But then the cash stop started pushing the boundaries a little bit, seeing what they could get away with selling for money. Experienced players started screaming P2W and began leaving the game. The game was hurt a little bit by losing those experienced players.

The recoil on the forums settled a bit. DDO bided it's time but then pushed their boundaries again. Same screaming, more people leaving. More brain drain. The game was hurt further and the player population suffered a bit more because of it.

The cycle repeated again and again and again. Most serious players were leaving in droves. The game became more and more built around casual players (and no, I am not using this term in a derogatory manner here). This made it into more of a Facebook type game. Everybody became self sufficient because the game became so easy. Most content could be soloed. There was no need to be social, so the Multiplayer aspect went down, down, down. The game became completely P2W, or Pay to not have to Play and Still Get What You Want. No challenge at all. The game is now a hollow shell of what it was when I joined when it just went F2P.

I tried other games along the way that have used the same or similar F2P or B2P models. In order, they were Aion, SWToR, GW2 and The Secret World. So, not a lot, but a pretty good representation of the most popular MMOs out there. I would consider myself of Intermediate experience, leaning toward the Old group of pessimists.

Moving away from a sub-based P2P model is generally great for a failing game initially. It brings many more people to the game and rejuvenates it. The problem is that over time, the company realizes they are not making a sustainable amount from the cash shop and need to add more stuff to it. It slowly becomes P2W.

At first, new players don't care about that. I didn't, that's for sure. But the longer I was in DDO, the better I got, the more experienced I got, the more time I spent making my characters incrementally better, the more I became sensitive to the changes happening around me to the game. Then one day I looked around and saw that they had completely ruined the challenge of the game and it became very boring. It's like having the cheat codes for a single player game. That's OK if you just want to see the story, but that part doesn't take long. The sustainability and replay-ability is gone. Most players don't like that and leave. The MMO then becomes a Facebook game.

It may take a year, or two or even three for this to happen if your lucky. But depending on your tolerance of the downside, the game you love will be ruined. Maybe this does not matter to you?

There is no TL;DR version of this. If you want to understand, then read it. If you want to remain ignorant, don't. I don't really give a damn.

I often read drivel like this from sub fanatics. You take an example of one game and try to twist that to suit your argument, blithely ignoring successful games with a b2p model (you don't even seem to understand the difference between f2p and b2p) and sub games that have failed miserably, or ended up going down a similar path despite the magical game tax.

I lol'd.

Please mention one good B2P game with amazing end-game raids, frequent content updates & purely cosmetic Cash Shop.

I'm waiting.

someuser

Grapdjan wrote: »

someuser wrote: »

95% percent of people either do not care or are happy with the B2P change? Based on what numbers or is that just your optimistic attitude (spin)??

I chose 95% as a very low estimate based on the amount of people who had voted on the weighted, but I guess most used player generated forum poll. Meaning that ESO has a population of around 16,720 people if the 826 that bothered to vote was 5% of the entire player base.

Interesting way of looking at it, but I'm not sure I agree with your logic.

a) we don't know eso's population.

b) even if we were to assume eso's population was 16,720 (and that you are talking about forum users, not the general population which doesn't register here), you cannot assume all 16,720 people read that poll and only 5% voted

The way I would look at the 826 people who voted (in your example) is a good indicator of the general attitude of forum users here.

The variable we cannot really account for is that this group most likely does have a bias (just the fact you're a register forum user, let alone a poster makes you a minority).


None the less, I believe many (not all) of the most valuable modders and community contributors visit these forums. To disappoint such a dedicated base could always backfire down the road.

Only time will tell.

Aeratus

Totally agree with OP.

Welcome, new players who are interested!

At this point, all the haters are just holding back the game from its potential by spewing out negativity. Happy to see this game move forward to a more modern business model, because that's what it takes these days, like it or not.

DDuke

Aeratus wrote: »

Totally agree with OP.

Welcome, new players who are interested!

At this point, all the haters are just holding back the game from its potential by spewing out negativity. Happy to see this game move forward to a more modern business model, because that's what it takes these days, like it or not.

WoW would like a word with you (still P2P).

But meanwhile, let's welcome all the toxic haters who thought the game wasn't "good enough" to subscribe to, and the kids who couldn't afford it.

Aeratus

DDuke wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Totally agree with OP.

Welcome, new players who are interested!

At this point, all the haters are just holding back the game from its potential by spewing out negativity. Happy to see this game move forward to a more modern business model, because that's what it takes these days, like it or not.

WoW would like a word with you (still P2P).

That's because WoW is just feeding off of its historical popularity. The fact that WoW is alive under an archaic business model is just the same as how counter strike 1.6 is still alive under archaic graphics. That is, it says nothing about games that are newly developed today.

DDuke

Aeratus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

Totally agree with OP.

Welcome, new players who are interested!

At this point, all the haters are just holding back the game from its potential by spewing out negativity. Happy to see this game move forward to a more modern business model, because that's what it takes these days, like it or not.

WoW would like a word with you (still P2P).

That's because WoW is just feeding off of its historical popularity. The fact that WoW is alive under an archaic business model is just the same as how counter strike 1.6 is still alive under archaic graphics. That is, it says nothing about games that are newly developed today.

Some companies just stay reputable & don't cash out for the console money, while others do.

It says there are still people appreciating subscription model (aren't these forums a proof of it?).

In fact, when I browse comments about new MMOs (which I do often these days ), I see more & more people saying they won't play the game if it doesn't have subscription fee (because that implies the game will have quality).

Of course, F2P/B2P models are more popular currently (as gaming in general is getting more popular), which means there's a lot of people new to gaming that simply don't know better (having never played a good subscription game).

They see B2P/F2P as the "norm", and never bother learn of the benefits of P2P. Money hungry companies are sure to take advantage of that.

phairdon

Deletes comment

Brother_Numsie

Actually if you look at the forums (really, really look at the forums) you will notice that it's the same maybe 30-40 people (tops, generously so) creating threads and commenting in others threads that are upset( aka: in full on rage mode). (*sigh* I'm going to be flamed for saying that, but it is true) Most other people seem to be ok with B2P, but worry that the cash shop will turn into P2W, a legitimate concern, but one that can be easily remedied.

How?

Tell them what you don't want! They have an official thread made up, go their and tell them what you do not want to see in the shop (and stuff you wouldn't mind seeing).

But what if they put something in the game you don't like?

Just don't buy the stuff you don't want in the cash shop, if no one buys a certain item, they are not likely going to make another similar one. If Zen (Zos, Bethesda, whoever you have a problem with) is so money grubbing as some of you like to think, they are not going to waste time and money on a product that wont sell.

Desdemonte

Yasha wrote: »

Welcome new players, thankfully these haters th

Desdemonte wrote: »

To the OP @Grapdjan‌, I will attempt to explain this to you. I do not know your past history with MMOs, but I have to guess you are somewhat new to them. This is going to be a long read, but if you really care about the topic you started and want to get an insight into the people here who are upset, you'll read it. I will attempt to be as neutral and non-condescending as I can.

My belief is that this all comes down to a matter of experience in the MMO world. Let me elaborate:

I see MMO players as one of 2 types- New and Old, with "Intermediate" kind of wavering between the two. Some of the Intermediate subset will be new enough to lean toward the New and optimistic viewpoint and some will be old enough to lean toward the more pessimistic (some would say realistic, or experienced) viewpoint. The Intermediate subset probably cancels itself out in general mindset, and things like polls, etc. Then there is the very small subset that can pretty much be ignored because they also balance each other out. These are the people who have no objectivity and are either absolute Fanbois or Haters.

I used to be new and optimistic. My first MMO was DDO. I found it completely by chance a couple weeks after it went F2P. I actually thought it was a scam at first. I'd never heard of this ability to play a game for free. I didn't even have to buy the base game! I thought it was awesome! I always wanted to try WoW but couldn't afford the sub. I had one buddy who tried out Everquest in college. It looked like a cool idea, but eventually he couldn't afford the sub either.

So as a total bright eyed newb, I joined the DDO forums to learn how to play the game. They were pretty good forums. I played that game like an addiction for 3 years. I frigging loved it. I was very passionate about it. But then the cash stop started pushing the boundaries a little bit, seeing what they could get away with selling for money. Experienced players started screaming P2W and began leaving the game. The game was hurt a little bit by losing those experienced players.

The recoil on the forums settled a bit. DDO bided it's time but then pushed their boundaries again. Same screaming, more people leaving. More brain drain. The game was hurt further and the player population suffered a bit more because of it.

The cycle repeated again and again and again. Most serious players were leaving in droves. The game became more and more built around casual players (and no, I am not using this term in a derogatory manner here). This made it into more of a Facebook type game. Everybody became self sufficient because the game became so easy. Most content could be soloed. There was no need to be social, so the Multiplayer aspect went down, down, down. The game became completely P2W, or Pay to not have to Play and Still Get What You Want. No challenge at all. The game is now a hollow shell of what it was when I joined when it just went F2P.

I tried other games along the way that have used the same or similar F2P or B2P models. In order, they were Aion, SWToR, GW2 and The Secret World. So, not a lot, but a pretty good representation of the most popular MMOs out there. I would consider myself of Intermediate experience, leaning toward the Old group of pessimists.

Moving away from a sub-based P2P model is generally great for a failing game initially. It brings many more people to the game and rejuvenates it. The problem is that over time, the company realizes they are not making a sustainable amount from the cash shop and need to add more stuff to it. It slowly becomes P2W.

At first, new players don't care about that. I didn't, that's for sure. But the longer I was in DDO, the better I got, the more experienced I got, the more time I spent making my characters incrementally better, the more I became sensitive to the changes happening around me to the game. Then one day I looked around and saw that they had completely ruined the challenge of the game and it became very boring. It's like having the cheat codes for a single player game. That's OK if you just want to see the story, but that part doesn't take long. The sustainability and replay-ability is gone. Most players don't like that and leave. The MMO then becomes a Facebook game.

It may take a year, or two or even three for this to happen if your lucky. But depending on your tolerance of the downside, the game you love will be ruined. Maybe this does not matter to you?

There is no TL;DR version of this. If you want to understand, then read it. If you want to remain ignorant, don't. I don't really give a damn.

I often read drivel like this from sub fanatics. You take an example of one game and try to twist that to suit your argument, blithely ignoring successful games with a b2p model (you don't even seem to understand the difference between f2p and b2p) and sub games that have failed miserably, or ended up going down a similar path despite the magical game tax.

Hahahahahah

Examples please.

BTW, I'm not a sub fanatic. I'm a good game that offers a challenge fanatic. I think my examples are a pretty good cross-section of the popular MMOs that have been out there the last 10 years or so. Notice I didn't even mention EVE or WoW- both sub games and the 2 most successful MMOs out there.

This change by ZOS actually benefits me. I was going to cancel my sub before I even heard this news because of the horrid PvP conditions. This will at least allow me to continue playing with my guild a little bit while I wait for CU. It certainly isn't worth my money to keep paying for a sub.

DDuke

Brother_Numsie wrote: »

Actually if you look at the forums (really, really look at the forums) you will notice that it's the same maybe 30-40 people (tops, generously so) creating threads and commenting in others threads that are upset( aka: in full on rage mode). (*sigh* I'm going to be flamed for saying that, but it is true) Most other people seem to be ok with B2P, but worry that the cash shop will turn into P2W, a legitimate concern, but one that can be easily remedied.

How?

Tell them what you don't want! They have an official thread made up, go their and tell them what you do not want to see in the shop (and stuff you wouldn't mind seeing).

But what if they put something in the game you don't like?

Just don't buy the stuff you don't want in the cash shop, if no one buys a certain item, they are not likely going to make another similar one. If Zen (Zos, Bethesda, whoever you have a problem with) is so money grubbing as some of you like to think, they are not going to waste time and money on a product that wont sell.

And if you look around the forums (like really look at the forums), you'll notice that it's the same 3 F2P/B2P fanboys defending it every chance they get.

Welcome to the internet.

LordTareq

Grapdjan wrote: »

A sad feature of MMOs is that forums are usually populated by a small fraction of players, and this minority are usually extremely vocal and contribute the largest part of a games forum community.

Usually there are within that group an even smaller fraction of prolific posters, gaining a small level of 'superstardom' among the rest. Attributed to these people is a sort of clairvoyance as they read situations that develop in the games unfolding story such as nerfs, content drops or changing game mechanics. This group also believes themselves to be more important and possibly having a special relationship with the games development team as obviously due to the size of their input they have most direct replies from development or customer service reps.

If there is a perceived threat or issue facing the game and it is something they do not like - i.e. content drops not happening fast enough, patch notes being delayed, changes in payment options or simply not feeling like they are being told what they want to know, this group will turn venomously and throw a tantrum until they either quit, or manage to reconcile the changes with their addiction and carry on playing until the next major upset.

When you have an announcement like this B2P one which, without any empirical evidence, is immediately denounced as 'the death of X game' then the forums usually erupt with the same 200 - 400 players spamming and filling said forums with Chicken Little like cries of impending doom. Along with spurious weighted polls and screenshots of 'X game has been uninstalled'.

This can be damaging to the game if you have any potential new players coming along to visit the forums in the wake of said new announcements, so I'd like to say to anyone reading -

DON'T PANIC! The people posting all the rage/betrayal/I quit threads on here, and voting in silly polls are the equivalent of the crazy white bearded hobo walking through your city with a board round his neck that says 'The End is Nigh'!

The other 95% of people are happily enjoying the game and are not even registered to post on the forums as they don't feel the need.

While you may be partly correct, there are also users such as myself that are not active on these forums, don't complain much at all, yet this free (buy, whatever) to play business has triggered me to make several posts to (hopefully) communicate my displeasure at the situation to Zenimax, as I do feel somewhat taken advantage of.

So your 5% fanatical forum naysayers vs 95% happy silent players is a bit too absolute. I'm pretty sure there is a very large 'grey zone' of players that doesn't fall in either category.

Izzban

Grapdjan wrote: »

A sad feature of MMOs is that forums are usually populated by a small fraction of players, and this minority are usually extremely vocal and contribute the largest part of a games forum community.

Usually there are within that group an even smaller fraction of prolific posters, gaining a small level of 'superstardom' among the rest. Attributed to these people is a sort of clairvoyance as they read situations that develop in the games unfolding story such as nerfs, content drops or changing game mechanics. This group also believes themselves to be more important and possibly having a special relationship with the games development team as obviously due to the size of their input they have most direct replies from development or customer service reps.

If there is a perceived threat or issue facing the game and it is something they do not like - i.e. content drops not happening fast enough, patch notes being delayed, changes in payment options or simply not feeling like they are being told what they want to know, this group will turn venomously and throw a tantrum until they either quit, or manage to reconcile the changes with their addiction and carry on playing until the next major upset.

When you have an announcement like this B2P one which, without any empirical evidence, is immediately denounced as 'the death of X game' then the forums usually erupt with the same 200 - 400 players spamming and filling said forums with Chicken Little like cries of impending doom. Along with spurious weighted polls and screenshots of 'X game has been uninstalled'.

This can be damaging to the game if you have any potential new players coming along to visit the forums in the wake of said new announcements, so I'd like to say to anyone reading -

DON'T PANIC! The people posting all the rage/betrayal/I quit threads on here, and voting in silly polls are the equivalent of the crazy white bearded hobo walking through your city with a board round his neck that says 'The End is Nigh'!

The other 95% of people are happily enjoying the game and are not even registered to post on the forums as they don't feel the need.

Far easier ways to tell new players that the game is good. You are clearly trying to antagonize anti-B2P players.

I prefer facts, rather than , "He said, she said and 95% of everybody in the world agrees!!"

Props for trying to speak for all the people that don't post, and for pulling their weight into your agenda.

Languish4567

FFXIV is P2P and came out a year prior to ESO and is on consoles. I don't think it is the pay model that is the problem, but a lack of substantial content, an immense amount of bugs especially in pvp that are not being fixed, and a game that veered incredibly far away from its source material that is causing an issue. This may work for awhile, but this step does not seem like one that is in a good direction given that they have had trouble putting new content in already and now will have to focus on a cash shop as well. That said it would be funny to see somebody standing on the back of a dragon mount because a bug will not let them sit down.

Morshire

LordTareq wrote: »

While you may be partly correct, there are also users such as myself that are not active on these forums, don't complain much at all, yet this free (buy, whatever) to play business has triggered me to make several posts to (hopefully) communicate my displeasure at the situation to Zenimax, as I do feel somewhat taken advantage of.

So your 5% fanatical forum naysayers vs 95% happy silent players is a bit too absolute. I'm pretty sure there is a very large 'grey zone' of players that doesn't fall in either category.

Aw man - now it is really getting confusing. So if I want to say I am in the "grey area" how big is that %? Is it like broken into "greyish" tones, like say 45% light grey, 15% grey, and then say 40% smoke grey? Is it even more in depth than that? AHHHH - all these % things are making me crazy.

@LordTareq - I agree. I guess I am 35% disappointed, 18% saddened, 7% mad, 30% apprehensive, 15% uncertain, 5% just plain confused.