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Why is ESO making light attack " weaving " so important ?
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Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
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In 1.6 light and heavy attacks become necessary to generate ultimate. So not really.There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
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In 1.6 light and heavy attacks become necessary to generate ultimate. So not really.There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
Ah nuts.Edited by Guppet on January 11, 2015 10:26AM2 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
When I played BF2 the "skilled" players would know how to hide their hit boxes within geometry of the map to avoid damage. To me it's the same, just pushing the boundaries of the technology that the game is built with. I don't agree with it but it's what we have....3 -
GreyBrow✭✭✭✭Read my sig.
Also, many stamina builds do not require traditional "weaving". If they do, their "rotation" is two buttons. (Read: Snipe weaving)
Stamina DPS is the easiest thing to be good at in the game (Read: Most noob friendly), because you often get better DPS without weaving in light attacks. Rapid strikes builds just press "1" over and over and over and stop occasionally to apply buffs. In execute range, they use steel tornado.
This is mostly because of how ridiculously buffed stamina skills have become. They cost next to nothing, which means that your native regen takes care of your resources, and allow you to just mash the same button over and over.
The skills are such high damage, that you actually LOSE dps by "weaving" anything but the highest damage per cast skill into your rotation.
Many of you have probably seen situations like this:
Update 1.4:
>>Player A joins your raid in purple well-fitted gear.
>>His DPS is 600-700 at BEST.
Update 1.5:
>>Player A Joins your raid in the same gear.
>>He presses "1" over and over
>>1100 DPS.
"Wait, what is veil of blades and why would I use that?"
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pmn100b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Read my sig.
Also, many stamina builds do not require traditional "weaving". If they do, their "rotation" is two buttons. (Read: Snipe weaving)
Stamina DPS is the easiest thing to be good at in the game (Read: Most noob friendly), because you often get better DPS without weaving in light attacks. Rapid strikes builds just press "1" over and over and over and stop occasionally to apply buffs. In execute range, they use steel tornado.
This is mostly because of how ridiculously buffed stamina skills have become. They cost next to nothing, which means that your native regen takes care of your resources, and allow you to just mash the same button over and over.
The skills are such high damage, that you actually LOSE dps by "weaving" anything but the highest damage per cast skill into your rotation.
Many of you have probably seen situations like this:
Update 1.4:
>>Player A joins your raid in purple well-fitted gear.
>>His DPS is 600-700 at BEST.
Update 1.5:
>>Player A Joins your raid in the same gear.
>>He presses "1" over and over
>>1100 DPS.
"Wait, what is veil of blades and why would I use that?"
Yeah I'm seeing a lot of stamina NB vids on youtube where they don't even bother using impale for execute, they just carry on with rapid strikes right to the end. Says a lot about how far stamina builds have come.
However, I still go the magicka route with my NB, less single target dps but some nice utility with off heals and rapid ulti gain. Offers up something different (maybe more useful) from the fotm destro or stamina builds. Plus I run magicka NB in PvP so can't be switching attributes around everytime I PvE.0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
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In 1.6 light and heavy attacks become necessary to generate ultimate. So not really.There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
Ah nuts.
So you have to attack with your weapon to build ultimates up, I do that anyway, it allows stamina and magicka to recover.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule2 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I guess if you choose to dedicate a whole mouse button to light attacks, ZoS feels they should make them important.
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Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭So I should say....I do know how to weave....and I don't need to use light and heavy attacks on my dk dw Stam build. My dk magic build I do though. I manage the use of my dots, standard , pots, and Stam effectively and have no need to weave with a Stam build. I understand that we will be forced to use it in 1.6 to gain ult.....I just think it sucks.3
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seanvwolf✭✭✭✭There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
I think your confusing attack weaving with animation cancelling. And it's not very likely that animation cancelling is going to be removed as some skills, like blocking, should always take priority.1 -
Mormo✭✭✭Math is not in your favor OP. You may be able to "burst" 1600-1700 but you most definitely will not be able to keep it sustained. Those who have mastered weaving are the ones who have the highest sustained dps.
Maths is important you know.▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
Mormo
45K DpS oN NaVi GoDSLaYeR
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Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭Ummm, OK ....so this is probably an old fart question lol....
By 'weaving' you mean a rotation that involves non-ability attacks? Err ummm more correctly just an attack rotation? Well that's what we called it back in the day ....actually before that it was just called attacking.....guess I either don't understand what the term means (like how is it different from attacking?) Or I am just old and outdated from the modern slang.
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seanvwolf✭✭✭✭Ummm, OK ....so this is probably an old fart question lol....
By 'weaving' you mean a rotation that involves non-ability attacks? Err ummm more correctly just an attack rotation? Well that's what we called it back in the day ....actually before that it was just called attacking.....guess I either don't understand what the term means (like how is it different from attacking?) Or I am just old and outdated from the modern slang.
Sighs
You are right, @Faugaun. Games used to rely on regular attacks with the occassional skill thrown in (think early MMO's and every TES game ever). Now, it seems to be all about the shock and awe effects of making their characters seem powerful. So it caters to that crowd. I'd be perfectly content if people didn't want to weave normal attacks between their skills. Just don't only do normal attacks and don't do just skills while grouped with me, please.Edited by seanvwolf on January 11, 2015 5:36PM0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ummm, OK ....so this is probably an old fart question lol....
By 'weaving' you mean a rotation that involves non-ability attacks? Err ummm more correctly just an attack rotation? Well that's what we called it back in the day ....actually before that it was just called attacking.....guess I either don't understand what the term means (like how is it different from attacking?) Or I am just old and outdated from the modern slang.
Sighs
In this game we refer to weaving as to canceling part of a light or heavy weapon attack with a direct damage skill animation. This usually will net you a good increase in dps since it allows you to include a weapon attack and your spamable direct damage skill in the 1.3s internal cool-down of the game.Without it you only use the skill during that time.
Some examples -
Destro staff LA weaving- press LMB then immediately press&release Crushing Shock key repeat every 1.3 second. This is light attack weaving with destro and will net you around extra 300DPS+ if you get a 1to 1 ratio on LA/CS.
Destro Staff Heavy weaving- this is similar only that you press the LMB just a bit longer and you start before the Crushing shock ends. You get the lowest power heavy attack +the CS. The dps is a bit better but a bit harder to pull off.
With DW you can weave Rapid Strikes and heavy or light attacks. There is a noticeable increasing in dps if you pull it of right.
There are also 2H and Bow weaving techniques although I do not have much experience with them.
Everything can be weaved with weapon attacks and will have a considerable increase in DPS. I even weave light resto attacks with Puncturing Sweep and it does increase my instant dps from around 300 to around 400 on my VR5 templar healer build.
I am not sure what you want to point out. Gear quality and sets don't really matter for dps sustain since most good dps builds will use crit and power not regen. The type of armor is more important for sustain . Weaving is done for extra dps mostly and from what i have tested the difference ranges from 100 to extra 500 DPS based on the rotation, build and how close one is to the 1to1 weapon attack/main DD skill spam ratio.@PBpsy Actually I can pull my highest single-target DPS (high damage, low cost skills) for 15 seconds with just white non-set gear and about 30 seconds with specific gear in mind, and most fights end in that time. If you can keep a DPS sustained for about a minute and a half with a specific rotation, then you can almost be assured that you can maintain that DPS indefinitely.Edited by PBpsy on January 11, 2015 5:54PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's actually a possibility that attack weaving is removed in 1.6. We know it was not intentional and we know they have completely rebalanced combat. So you never know. It would be better for the game if it was removed. Then you would not get people thinking they are skilled just because they do it, it's easy when you get used to it, it's not skillful.
I think your confusing attack weaving with animation cancelling. And it's not very likely that animation cancelling is going to be removed as some skills, like blocking, should always take priority.
Erm, they are one and the same thing.0 -
seanvwolf✭✭✭✭
They are related. Not the same thing.
Attack Weaving is to Animation Cancelling,
What Juggling is to Muscle Memory.
Animation cancelling in general is what was discussed both internally and among the community about whether it was intentional or not, concerning multiple tactics taking advantage of Animation Cancelling, Attack Weaving being just one of them and Block Casting being another example. There's even a tactic involving Target Skillbar Locking using Animation Cancelling.Edited by seanvwolf on January 11, 2015 6:10PM2 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
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They are related. Not the same thing.
Attack Weaving is to Animation Cancelling,
What Juggling is to Muscle Memory.
Animation cancelling in general is what was discussed both internally and among the community about whether it was intentional or not, concerning multiple tactics taking advantage of Animation Cancelling, Attack Weaving being just one of them.
The weaving causes animation cancelling. It's not hard to grasp.1 -
seanvwolf✭✭✭✭
They are related. Not the same thing.
Attack Weaving is to Animation Cancelling,
What Juggling is to Muscle Memory.
Animation cancelling in general is what was discussed both internally and among the community about whether it was intentional or not, concerning multiple tactics taking advantage of Animation Cancelling, Attack Weaving being just one of them.
The weaving causes animation cancelling. It's not hard to grasp.
So does block casting. You're confused. During discussions on these issues it came down to the existence of Animation Cancelling in general, not Attack Weaving.1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
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They are related. Not the same thing.
Attack Weaving is to Animation Cancelling,
What Juggling is to Muscle Memory.
Animation cancelling in general is what was discussed both internally and among the community about whether it was intentional or not, concerning multiple tactics taking advantage of Animation Cancelling, Attack Weaving being just one of them.
The weaving causes animation cancelling. It's not hard to grasp.
So does block casting. You're confused. During discussions on these issues it came down to the existence of Animation Cancelling in general, not Attack Weaving.
You only weave because it causes animation cancelling. I'm not arguing with you anymore. Go argue with someone else.5 -
seanvwolf✭✭✭✭
You also sometimes only block because it causes animation cancelling.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Maybe this will help.
Heavy Attack (Increased Resource gain; Lowest Animation Priority)
Light Attack (No Resource gain or loss outside of normal recovery; Low Animation Priority)
Skills (Variable Resource loss (as consumption); Medium Animation Priority)
Blocking (Consistent Resource loss (as active mitigation); High Animation Priority.)
Break Free (Fixed Resource loss; Highest Animation Priority)
Attack Weaving uses the priorities of Skills to override the lower animation priorities of Light and Heavy Attacks.
Block Casting uses the priorities of Blocking to override the lower animation priorities of Skills, Light and Heavy Attacks.
There's even a basic tactic of Animation cancelling in overriding Heavy Attack animations with Light Attacks.Edited by seanvwolf on January 11, 2015 6:31PM2 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭So weaving is glitching the system? Sounds like cheating....Ummm, OK ....so this is probably an old fart question lol....
By 'weaving' you mean a rotation that involves non-ability attacks? Err ummm more correctly just an attack rotation? Well that's what we called it back in the day ....actually before that it was just called attacking.....guess I either don't understand what the term means (like how is it different from attacking?) Or I am just old and outdated from the modern slang.
Sighs
You are right, @Faugaun. Games used to rely on regular attacks with the occassional skill thrown in (think early MMO's and every TES game ever). Now, it seems to be all about the shock and awe effects of making their characters seem powerful. So it caters to that crowd. I'd be perfectly content if people didn't want to weave normal attacks between their skills. Just don't only do normal attacks and don't do just skills while grouped with me, please.
No this is what I was saying I think you (@seanvwolf) and I are on the same page....it used to be you did attacks and as skill resources became available you did ability attacks ....which is how I interpreted weaving except it sounded like people were apparently just using skills to attack and standing around doing nothing in between waiting for powers to charge (I was thinking wtf)....that's why I was (still am kinda) confused on the weaving.
So lemme see if I got it now....weaving is casting a normal attack and an ability simultaneously to maximize DPs...this results in a visual glitch typically (sounds like exploiting to me...) And apparently there has been debate on whether or not this is intentional by Zos. Obviously if it were intentional then it would be difficult to create dual actions for every skill combo and you still might get graphical glitches....
Am I understanding correctly ?
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http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=402 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭So weaving is glitching the system? Sounds like cheating....Ummm, OK ....so this is probably an old fart question lol....
By 'weaving' you mean a rotation that involves non-ability attacks? Err ummm more correctly just an attack rotation? Well that's what we called it back in the day ....actually before that it was just called attacking.....guess I either don't understand what the term means (like how is it different from attacking?) Or I am just old and outdated from the modern slang.
Sighs
You are right, @Faugaun. Games used to rely on regular attacks with the occassional skill thrown in (think early MMO's and every TES game ever). Now, it seems to be all about the shock and awe effects of making their characters seem powerful. So it caters to that crowd. I'd be perfectly content if people didn't want to weave normal attacks between their skills. Just don't only do normal attacks and don't do just skills while grouped with me, please.
No this is what I was saying I think you (@seanvwolf) and I are on the same page....it used to be you did attacks and as skill resources became available you did ability attacks ....which is how I interpreted weaving except it sounded like people were apparently just using skills to attack and standing around doing nothing in between waiting for powers to charge (I was thinking wtf)....that's why I was (still am kinda) confused on the weaving.
So lemme see if I got it now....weaving is casting a normal attack and an ability simultaneously to maximize DPs...this results in a visual glitch typically (sounds like exploiting to me...) And apparently there has been debate on whether or not this is intentional by Zos. Obviously if it were intentional then it would be difficult to create dual actions for every skill combo and you still might get graphical glitches....
Am I understanding correctly ?
It is abusing game mechanics. You effectively get off more attacks than the timescale should allow, but as the Devs don't know how to fix it, you can't get in trouble for it.
They confirmed it is unintended but currently accepted.5 -
seanvwolf✭✭✭✭
I am not sure what you want to point out. Gear quality and sets don't really matter for dps sustain since most good dps builds will use crit and power not regen. The type of armor is more important for sustain . Weaving is done for extra dps mostly and from what i have tested the difference ranges from 100 to extra 500 DPS based on the rotation, build and how close one is to the 1to1 weapon attack/main DD skill spam ratio.@PBpsy Actually I can pull my highest single-target DPS (high damage, low cost skills) for 15 seconds with just white non-set gear and about 30 seconds with specific gear in mind, and most fights end in that time. If you can keep a DPS sustained for about a minute and a half with a specific rotation, then you can almost be assured that you can maintain that DPS indefinitely.
There are gear sets that increase crit and power. That's why I said "specific gear in mind".
It was in reply to this statement:
I can, conditions allowed, pull similar dps against a single target without weaving light attacks, just the occassional heavy attack for resource sustain. Your reply to this was, as @Joejudas stated, not adding anything insightful.
Edited by seanvwolf on January 11, 2015 8:13PM1 -
WhiskyBob✭✭✭✭✭High dps without weaving is possible on dual wield dk I believe (master daggers - blood craze/unstable flame/flames of oblivion/potions and then just spam rapid strikes) i usually run around 1,2-1,3k dps without much effort.
You can also get nice dps without weaving on destro staff DK based around Valkyn Skoria set (just apply tons and tons and TONS of dots and let the meteors do the job: Cinder Storm/Flames of Oblivion/Engulfing Flames/Unstable Flame/Standard of Might) but you can do even better IF you weave.
Or if you are rich/lucky mix Ophidian bow + 2 rings, viper set and morag tong set and then just put lethal arrow in all your skill slots and mash the keyboard, you should be getting stable 1k dps.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭High dps without weaving is possible on dual wield dk I believe (master daggers - blood craze/unstable flame/flames of oblivion/potions and then just spam rapid strikes) i usually run around 1,2-1,3k dps without much effort.
Untill you run out of stamina that is. I heard that canceled dual wield heavy attacks do as much damage as fully charged heavy attacks (or maybe it was 2H), would be stupid not to weave them if you want to hit nice DPS.
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Mjollnir_NL✭✭✭just a question. I am at a lost. Did a quick google search but i am still wondering. So i need to use light (mouse click) and heavy attacks (stamina regen?) this is all new to me :-)Amrunor: Redguard Templar
Disciples of Disorder
We are mostly PVE players. We are determined to tackle challenges, but we do not reject anyone based on their skill.
So no one is left behind.
Calculated disorder is our team tactic :-)
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Lordstarfox✭✭
This was posted somewhereMjollnir_NL wrote: »just a question. I am at a lost. Did a quick google search but i am still wondering. So i need to use light (mouse click) and heavy attacks (stamina regen?) this is all new to me :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTb2YpuRsP4
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Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭High dps without weaving is possible on dual wield dk I believe (master daggers - blood craze/unstable flame/flames of oblivion/potions and then just spam rapid strikes) i usually run around 1,2-1,3k dps without much effort.
Untill you run out of stamina that is. I heard that canceled dual wield heavy attacks do as much damage as fully charged heavy attacks (or maybe it was 2H), would be stupid not to weave them if you want to hit nice DPS.
Weaving dual wield increases dps greatly especially Flurry (which is why people who do not clip the animation on it think it does little damage when in fact it does extreme damage when used correctly). Clipped heavy attack just means you cancel the wasted animation which saves time in your rotation. It is still a 100% charged heavy attack. The damage goes off the moment your weapons swings fully back and any animation after that (the follow through) is meaningless.
I personally do not like this even though it is easy to do. I would prefer all damage and animation were aligned properly to begin with but this is the system ZO made and they admitted they cannot fix it or are unwilling to fix it so they went the other direction and now are tying systems into weaving in order to fix other short comings of their combat system.
Sort of like how Microsoft used to call Operating System bugs as "undocumented features". At least ZO knows how to roll with punches.Edited by Tamanous on January 12, 2015 4:05PM0 -
Aoife32001✭✭✭✭This is one reason I will never bother with end-game competitive content (aside from the fact I don't take any game more seriously than mere entertainment deserves, and don't care to play with people who do).
It seems clear attack weaving is here to stay, probably because either ZOS doesn't know how to effectively get rid of it or they figure there are bigger fish to fry. It's unfortunate to me personally because I see it as a lame exploitation of game mechanics, rather than a demonstration of player "skill", but it is what it is. You will always have such players in MMOs.
I play ESO mostly solo or with my brother, rarely PvP, and never run trials/etc. When I do PvP I don't take it too seriously... it's just for an hour or so of amusement, and I'll welcome anyone who thinks likewise, regardless of whether they have full legendary VR14 with the "right" sets and attack weave everything, or if they're VR1 with lvl 40 gear and run every animation all the way through. An MMO is just about playing together. I'll save an obsession about being the "best" for real life, where it matters.
Thus, fortunately, attack weaving doesn't really impact me, so all you "skilled/elite/hard-core" players keep it up
Edited by Aoife32001 on January 12, 2015 4:23PM6 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭Ok then I'll just learn to live with it and add it into my rotation then. Grrrrrrrrrr -__-0
