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A Big problem that Nobody is even talking about.
olemanwinter
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The Devs are now on record clarifying that the move to the champion system is effectively a releveling of veteran players. lvl 50 and VR14 will have the same champion points. Not temporarily, but permanently until you begin to earn them 1 at a time.
OK FINE.
The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.
So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.
But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?
Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.
Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?
If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.
And logically that is where the whole plan fails.
TLDR:
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.
This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.
Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to us to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.
Edited by olemanwinter on December 30, 2014 12:11AM OK FINE.
The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.
So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.
But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?
Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.
Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?
If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.
And logically that is where the whole plan fails.
TLDR:
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.
This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.
Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to us to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.
29
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Layenem✭✭✭✭So the reason all these things are staying the same in 1.6 is because we will still have VR14 in 1.6.
Don't expect a complete overhaul of mob statistics until 1.7 when they remove veteran ranks. A VR1 still won't be a VR14 in 1.6.
The real issue is that a VR14 will be an exp equivalent to a VR1, that's the real issue. SOME casuals love it. No one else does.13 -
ers101284b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Except that the vet levels are not going away in this patch. A VR 14 will have more skills, more attribute points, better armor, and more knowledge of how end game works. But once VR 14 goes away an there are more people in craglorn because they won't have to go through gold and silver if they don't want to then finding groups for quests will be much easier. And you'll have more people to play with at endgame. But really you just wanna rage for the hell of it anyway.16 -
Layenem✭✭✭✭ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »more skills, ... and more knowledge of how end game works. But once VR 14 goes away an there are more people in craglorn because they won't have to go through gold and silver if they don't want to then finding groups for quests will be much easier.
None of these things right here have any bearing on the OP lol...
I know VR14s who have no skills because they have no skill points because they grinded, from VR1, in Craglorn, and didn't do any quests or get any skyshards. So... no. Not all of that is accurate. Recompile the list lol3 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭So the reason all these things are staying the same in 1.6 is because we will still have VR14 in 1.6.
Don't expect a complete overhaul of mob statistics until 1.7 when they remove veteran ranks. A VR1 still won't be a VR14 in 1.6.
The real issue is that a VR14 will be an exp equivalent to a VR1, that's the real issue. SOME casuals love it. No one else does.
Okay, so take everything I said and apply it to 1.7
How can they relevel a fresh level 50 and a VR 14 to be the same thing without also making them able to do the same content?
Whenever it happens.
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olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »Except that the vet levels are not going away in this patch. A VR 14 will have more skills, more attribute points, better armor, and more knowledge of how end game works. But once VR 14 goes away an there are more people in craglorn because they won't have to go through gold and silver if they don't want to then finding groups for quests will be much easier. And you'll have more people to play with at endgame. But really you just wanna rage for the hell of it anyway.
That's all fine. But the fact remains you ignored or glossed over the basic fact.
After the change is fully implemented there will be almost no difference between Coldharbor and Upper Craglorn. Logically how could there be?
So, with no space between Coldharbor and UC, where does the content from the other alliances fit in?
Yes, you can go do them anyway even though you are overleveled, but that's not fun going around 1 shotting every NPC as you roll through the zones. People already complain about PvE being too easy.
Yes, you can roll an alt, but then that alt cannot group with any of your alliance friends in dungeons and is locked out of your pvp campaign of choice. So, no.0 -
spryler✭✭✭You make an excellent point OP and they have a couple months to figure this out. This is the big challenge they now face, rebalancing the game when v14 effectively mean v1. Essentially that is the rate limiting factor for fully implementing the Champion System.
One obvious thing is gear - v14 players have better gear and thus will be better equipped to handle more difficult content.
Beyond that? We have those 14ish extra attribute points for being v14. How will they handle that? Just equalize everyone out? Possibly. This is where the extra champion points was the perfect solution. The V14 players could spend their few extra champion points to "re-purchase" those added attribute (or whatever you choose to spend it on).
This is why I think we will eventually be awarded some extra CPs when Veteran levels are removed, but not that many. We'll see, this issue is exactly what ZOS will be working on for the next several months.
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Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People have two choices.
1. Speculate endlessly on what may or may not happen in the future and post here on the assumption that what they consider to be the worst-case scenario will be the one that ZOS will adopt.
2. Wait for proposed changes to be put on the public test server then play on that server and provide real feedback on the actual changes implemented based on real experiences.17 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭
I'm so glad you brought that up. Because NO. Shockingly No.One obvious thing is gear - v14 players have better gear and thus will be better equipped to handle more difficult content..
Consider this:
To use high level gear (after levels go away) you will have to allocate champion points for the right to use that gear you already have.
Those are points you would and could have otherwise used to strengthen your character.
New level 50s with no gear will have all those attribute points to allocate to build strength.
So, will that elite gear really make you any better than a fresh faced level 50 when he has more champion points than you do for his build because you had to use all yours for the right to wear the gear???
Edited by olemanwinter on December 30, 2014 12:13AM3 -
olemanwinter wrote: »The Devs are now on record clarifying that the move to the champion system is effectively a releveling of veteran players. lvl 50 and VR14 will have the same champion points. Not temporarily, but permanently until you begin to earn them 1 at a time.
OK FINE.
The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.
So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.
But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?
Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.
Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?
If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.
And logically that is where the whole plan fails.
TLDR:
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.
This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.
Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to use to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.
GEAR!! The answer to your question is gear. Vr14 fully equipped >> fresh 50.
You all are blowing this cp thing out of proportion: even now the difference between a new level 50 and a vr14 is not in their difference in attribute points (so few that don't really matter) but in their gear. And you know what? That difference will be the same came 1.6.
We vr14 will be much more powerfull than any fresh 50. STOP WHINING!!Edited by e.chiesa73b16_ESO on December 29, 2014 2:34PM4 -
olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭e.chiesa73b16_ESO wrote: »Gear. The answer to you question is gear. Vr14 fully equipped >> fresh 50
Please read my response to the person above you who posted the same thing.
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olemanwinter✭✭✭✭✭People have two choices.
1. Speculate endlessly on what may or may not happen in the future and post here on the assumption that what they consider to be the worst-case scenario will be the one that ZOS will adopt.
2. Wait for proposed changes to be put on the public test server then play on that server and provide real feedback on the actual changes implemented based on real experiences.
It's not speculation. It's logic. You cannot make A and B the same without also making A and B able to complete the same content.
4 -
stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭People have two choices.
...
2. Wait for proposed changes to be put on the public test server then play on that server and provide real feedback on the actual changes implemented based on real experiences.
When stuff hits the PTS, it's way too late to change anything based on player feedback. Time and time again, ZOS have proven unable or unwilling to make any changes at all from PTS to live. Except, of course, for their own last minute fixes that always seems to have unintended side effects and mess something up.
Their process so far has not allowed for feedback to cause any changes between the test version and the live version. Not even bugs that were reported in PTS were fixed before the updates went live.
So, if anybody wants to whine about the upcoming CS implementation, now is the time to do it.6 -
morvegil✭✭✭✭So now since you made it to vr14 u have to regrind again?Lo'ke
Nord Vampire
Nightblade
Shield+BOW
Daggerfall CovenantBandit KingBridge Bandits Guild1 -
RSram✭✭✭✭✭There is a difference: You can solo in Coldharbor, but you need to group in Craglorn to complete the quests.1 -
KhajitFurTrader✭✭✭✭✭
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And this is bad in your book because...?olemanwinter wrote: »TLDR:
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.
I may be wrong, but all I read is "Waaah, the evil devs are going to hurt my carefully build up elitist feeling of (imagined) superiority over others in a virtual online game."
What's so bad about having even more people to play with in particular zones in a Massively Multiplayer Online game? Ooooh, because they're not the right ones, are they?5 -
AshySamurai✭✭✭✭✭
✭More people in Craglorn = more people to group with. All will win.Make sweetrolls, not nerfs!6 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It seems pretty obvious that ZOS is soliciting feedback on the PTS for the 1.6
changes in order to determine what direction to go for the 1.7 changes when veteran ranks will probably be removed. They can't tell us much about what's happening in 1.7 because key decisions have not yet been made. I think people's energy would be better spent downloading PTS and making a list of what they want to test to provide feedback there than starting new threads every hour whining about decisions that have already been made for 1.6.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.5 -
Psychobunni✭✭✭✭✭
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^^^ So much this. My main is a destro staff, crit surge sorc...I'm not happy abt what I understand proposed changes to be either, but bottom line is to wait till it hits test and then FLOOD feedback with why what they are doing is right/wrong. Until then its all just noise.It seems pretty obvious that ZOS is soliciting feedback on the PTS for the 1.6
changes in order to determine what direction to go for the 1.7 changes when veteran ranks will probably be removed. They can't tell us much about what's happening in 1.7 because key decisions have not yet been made. I think people's energy would be better spent downloading PTS and making a list of what they want to test to provide feedback there than starting new threads every hour whining about decisions that have already been made for 1.6.
If options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!1 -
RDMyers65b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The real issue is that a VR14 will be an exp equivalent to a VR1, that's the real issue. SOME casuals love it. No one else does.
You keep forgetting that casual players make up the majority of the game. Let's say that only five percent of the players are hardcore. That leaves ninety five percent as casual players. So, as a business trying to make money, who would you consider the most important?6 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It seems pretty obvious that ZOS is soliciting feedback on the PTS for the 1.6
changes in order to determine what direction to go for the 1.7 changes when veteran ranks will probably be removed. They can't tell us much about what's happening in 1.7 because key decisions have not yet been made. I think people's energy would be better spent downloading PTS and making a list of what they want to test to provide feedback there than starting new threads every hour whining about decisions that have already been made for 1.6.
Ptretty much this. VR is not going away yet in 1.6 so there is time to test and then provide good feedback for what you feel should happen in 1.7.
Personally; I am in the middle as I have a VR7 toon that I will not touch right now as I would just assume earn champion points when I go any further, and I might as well get another class to 50 for 1.6 changes; but at the same time; I am at only VR7 because I was unsubbed for many months as I could not stand the VR system. Especially when they keep adding levels.
In the end; I do not mind being behind those that actually went through all that crap or even if it was grinding mindlessly in Craglorn in some way or the other. Give them something. I will just be happy if I can make up ground while doing something I enjoy rather than mindless grinds just to eek out the next couple levels. In that regards, the higher VRs may be stronger, but I won the game by enjoying myself.Edited by technohic on December 29, 2014 3:26PM2 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It seems pretty obvious that ZOS is soliciting feedback on the PTS for the 1.6 changes in order to determine what direction to go for the 1.7 changes when veteran ranks will probably be removed.
I personally hope they never remove the veteran ranks. This game needs a vertical progression system alongside the horizontal system (the Champion System).4 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭olemanwinter wrote: »The Devs are now on record clarifying that the move to the champion system is effectively a releveling of veteran players. lvl 50 and VR14 will have the same champion points. Not temporarily, but permanently until you begin to earn them 1 at a time.
OK FINE.
The Devs are also on record saying that they want you to continue to be able to do what you do now.
So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.
But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?
Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.
Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?
If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.
And logically that is where the whole plan fails.
TLDR:
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.
This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.
Zos, not only have you alienated your community by lying to use to encourage temporary subscriptions ("were tracking XP), and punished players who put in more time, but you have effectively just shrunken your own game. Way to go.
But that VR1 won't be able to finish the content unless a guide is provided by the VR14, coz didn't you know casuals can't figure things out themselves, without elitists to tell them what to do.Edited by Guppet on December 29, 2014 3:32PM5 -
kongkim✭✭✭✭✭Wait and see. Let them do their work that have planed and after 1.6 you know how it works you may or may not have something to whine about.2 -
Zorgon_The_Revenged✭✭✭✭✭Maybe 1.6 will be the decider for ZoS to see if they will remove VR ranks, it's their test "phase" to see if VR and CP progression can work along side each other....I hope it is.
What is a VR rank? +10/+15 to a stat, change in soft cap(!?), a skill point and more XP progression (in skills other than the ones I maxed out around lvl50 to VR2).0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭olemanwinter wrote: »So the reason all these things are staying the same in 1.6 is because we will still have VR14 in 1.6.
Don't expect a complete overhaul of mob statistics until 1.7 when they remove veteran ranks. A VR1 still won't be a VR14 in 1.6.
The real issue is that a VR14 will be an exp equivalent to a VR1, that's the real issue. SOME casuals love it. No one else does.
Okay, so take everything I said and apply it to 1.7
How can they relevel a fresh level 50 and a VR 14 to be the same thing without also making them able to do the same content?
Whenever it happens.
1.6 is enough. How can you complain about 1.7 when we have no idea how it is even going to work. For all we know they could raise the natural cap to 64. There is a reason nobody is talking about it.....Edited by timidobserver on December 29, 2014 4:04PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭olemanwinter wrote: »ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »Except that the vet levels are not going away in this patch. A VR 14 will have more skills, more attribute points, better armor, and more knowledge of how end game works. But once VR 14 goes away an there are more people in craglorn because they won't have to go through gold and silver if they don't want to then finding groups for quests will be much easier. And you'll have more people to play with at endgame. But really you just wanna rage for the hell of it anyway.
That's all fine. But the fact remains you ignored or glossed over the basic fact.
After the change is fully implemented there will be almost no difference between Coldharbor and Upper Craglorn. Logically how could there be?
So, with no space between Coldharbor and UC, where does the content from the other alliances fit in?
Yes, you can go do them anyway even though you are overleveled, but that's not fun going around 1 shotting every NPC as you roll through the zones. People already complain about PvE being too easy.
Yes, you can roll an alt, but then that alt cannot group with any of your alliance friends in dungeons and is locked out of your pvp campaign of choice. So, no.
I am quite sure that Craglorn will become the group zone and Cadwell the solo once VR is removed. Players will be able to go there from 50 on and do what they want to do.
Worthgar is the next solo zone and another group is coming as well, hopefully in the same update to give players a choice.
I seriously doubt that the progression will stay (Cadwell -> upper & lower -> Wrothgar --> new group zone). They will probably rethink their whole "group or die" strategy anyways.
I wouldn't be surprised if we soon see solo scenarios that compete with trials.Edited by Audigy on December 29, 2014 4:08PM3 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭
WOW, how can people still not get what the Champion System is? If you seriously think a VR1 (what people call LvL 50's) is going to be capable of jumping straight to Craglorn and solo the whole of it the day 1.6 comes out then, well, I have some prime swamp... I mean real estate to sell you in Florida. VR14's will still have 14 more Attribute points to spend and 14 more Skill points to spend as well as slightly higher in ALL stats than a VR1 when 1.6 launches, same as now. The Champion points will make NO difference between a VR14 and VR1 in their capability the day 1.6 is live, it will be the exact same as it is today with VR14's being a fair bit stronger than VR1's.olemanwinter wrote: »So, where I once was completing content in Craglorn at VR14, I will now be able to complete the same content as a lvl 50 with my 30 champion points.
But if a pre-1.6 version lvl 50 gets the same number of champion points, won't they also be able to hanle the same content as I am, since we are working with the same stats?
Logically, you cannot make lvl 50 and VR14 the same without either lowering the difficulty of Craglorn (and other elite content) OR making the jump from level 49 to level 50 so great that the other zones offer zero challenge whatsoever.
Again, look at this logically. If the content isn't going to change, if a Craglorn boss is going to have the same HP, same armor, same abilities, and same damage in 1.6 then HOW can lvl 50 and VR14 be made the same without everything between Coldharbor and Craglorn becoming pointless/effortless?
If you insist on releveling players in 1.6, that's fine (it's really not), but please explain what that will mean. VR14 is just a number. Level 50 is just a number. 30 Champion points is just a number. It's all meaningless until it's compared along side content.
My concern in one sentence:
IF I, as a VR14, am going to be able to do the same content as I was before 1.6 as you say, AND lvl 50 players are going to have the same champion points as I do, THEN a player will be able to go directly from Coldharbor to Upper Craglorn.[/b]
This effectively makes Craglorn and Coldharbor nearly the same. Like the difference between Rivenspire and Alik'r Desert.
How is it that people STILL don't get this? And ROFLMEOW on the Craglorn will be the same as Coldharbour comment.5 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭olemanwinter wrote: »So the reason all these things are staying the same in 1.6 is because we will still have VR14 in 1.6.
Don't expect a complete overhaul of mob statistics until 1.7 when they remove veteran ranks. A VR1 still won't be a VR14 in 1.6.
The real issue is that a VR14 will be an exp equivalent to a VR1, that's the real issue. SOME casuals love it. No one else does.
Okay, so take everything I said and apply it to 1.7
How can they relevel a fresh level 50 and a VR 14 to be the same thing without also making them able to do the same content?
Whenever it happens.
Everyone realizes they will keep the skill points and attribute points they have earned gaining each of the VR levels, right? So they wont be the same thing..Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0
