ESO live- Clarification on how ultimate will be generated in 1.6

Venriz · December 2014

this change will make ww more wanabe

Zeg0ta · December 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

So I asked this question numerous times during the Twitch stream.

They said that you would get a buff after using a light or heavy attack that would generate ultimate. Does this then mean that nothing else will generate ultimate? For example all of our class and weapon skills.

They didn't confirm or deny whether it will be the only way to generate ultimate. Did I misinterpret or is further clarification required? I've not got time stamps as they spoke about it at least twice.

That's not the only way to generate Ultimate; you can also use a few abilities to get more, such as Carve from the 2H skill line (and the amount of Ultimate that ability gives has been rebalanced as well) or healing another player with the Ultimate gain buff. You will not gain Ultimate by blocking or dodging.

So tanks are screwed great...

tinythinker · December 2014

There may still be such a strong anti-DK/anti-Vamp sentiment that some will welcome anything that they perceive as knocking such characters down a notch, but I hope that isn't the case for supporting the proposed ult gen changes for Update 1.6. I posted earlier in the thread about my solo non-vamp Templar rotation, which isn't exactly pumping out extreme DPS or dropping megaton ultimates left and right , so concern about the proposed changes to ult gen isn't just a DK/vamp thing.

Regardless of that, though, there is a concern on the part of many players that either 1) the new changes may adversely effect any multi-target bar/rotation (especially those used by spellcasters) or 2) the new system doesn't reward good play (blocking and dodging attacks, using class abilities effectively, etc). These concerns are not mutually exclusive

As I've written on the topic, for whatever it's worth, I am all for a more balanced approach to ult generation and addressing class and play style imbalance. Building on what I've posted before, I am tossing this out for consideration:

Reduce the coefficient for ult gen resulting from damage caused by critical strikes.
Put a cooldown (absolute or with diminishing returns) on ult gen from damage caused by AoE attacks.
Require that targets of healing be "in combat" (as in "you can't mount while you are in combat") to generate ult.
Increase the coefficient for ult gen from dodging attacks.
After blocking, a light or heavy weapon attack generates x ult per second for y seconds.
Taunting generates x ult per second for y seconds *or* give ult gen to taunt abilities like Puncture and Inner Fire.

The numbers for the decreased/increased coefficients and the cooldown are not given here since I don't have the data needed to see what would work best for overall balance. But, if these changes were implemented, the PvE and PvP imbalance for various classes/builds/roles could be evened out while still rewarding good game play and not putting some play styles/rotations at a disadvantage.

Those builds that rely on crits from AoE would earn ult somewhat slower, those who block/dodge more frequently would earn ult faster, and those who heal would need to earn their ult in combat. You'd still have an incentive to drop your block to attack with a weapon rather than just block-casting, and the single target stamina builds would get a lot more ult from all of the roll-dodging as well as quick blocking and then using a light attack as part of a counterstrike combination. Tanks could choose to block more after taunts or to take an occasional swipe with their one-handed sword.

Soris · December 2014

Poor templars even more ***'ed for this low rate ulti regen for 300 point ulti cost

MAKE NOVA COST 200 MAX

and ill be happy

DeLindsay · December 2014

faernaa wrote: »

Poor templars even more ***'ed for this low rate ulti regen for 300 point ulti cost

MAKE NOVA COST 200 MAX

and ill be happy

Make ALL Ultimates cost 200 with no ability to reduce that cost for ANY Class (including Vampire Ultimate, which I am), then I'll be happy.

Soris · December 2014

^ Yeah this is also good. But not all of them.. Just hard hitting aoe ones such as banner, nova and swarm, negate etc...

Darkonflare15 · December 2014

I find that this really not going to effect experience players at all like most of the people complaining in this thread. If you are such experience players, then this will not bother you at all. Take it as challenge.

DeLindsay · December 2014

faernaa wrote: »

^ Yeah this is also good. But not all of them.. Just hard hitting aoe ones such as banner, nova and swarm, negate etc...

They could classify them into groups. Offensive Ultimates getting one set of standardized costs (at least 150), Defensive/Healing say 200, then Utility being the 3rd type (again at least 150). I still think NO Class, Passive or set bonus should be capable of reducing anyone's Ultimate cost.

Glory · December 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Make ALL Ultimates cost 200 with no ability to reduce that cost for ANY Class (including Vampire Ultimate, which I am), then I'll be happy.

So Soul Harvest (costs 50) that does the same damage to ONE target should cost the same as Soul Tether's damage to multiple targets?

Your comment seems directed towards Bat Swarm spam and the overpriced cost of Nova. Beyond these issues, Ultimates should definitely not cost the same.

prototypefb · December 2014

This is welcome change!
I'm pro balanced pvp, OP stuff should be brought in line with currently 'useless' skills.
ESO should go further tho and remove that buff/clear ultimate bar while Ultimate is active, so there is no spamming those VoBs, Bat swarms and Standarts.

prototypefb · December 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

faernaa wrote: »

Poor templars even more ***'ed for this low rate ulti regen for 300 point ulti cost

MAKE NOVA COST 200 MAX

and ill be happy

Make ALL Ultimates cost 200 with no ability to reduce that cost for ANY Class (including Vampire Ultimate, which I am), then I'll be happy.

i'd rather ESO make AOE cost 3-4x more than single target spell, just because it makes more sense

Koensol · December 2014

This seems like a totally nonsensical and illogical way of generating ultimate. Hitting a target once with a La/Ha, and you get a buff to get ultimate... What is the thought behind that. I don't know the full workings yet, but my first impression of this system is that it seems pretty damn *** and above all: lame.

prototypefb · December 2014

Koensol wrote: »

This seems like a totally nonsensical and illogical way of generating ultimate. Hitting a target once with a La/Ha, and you get a buff to get ultimate... What is the thought behind that. I don't know the full workings yet, but my first impression of this system is that it seems pretty damn *** and above all: lame.

it is going to be implemented due to several reasons, one of them being dps aparently were generating too much ultimate in comparison to tanks, some builds much more(crit, aoe, dot, hot) compared to others(non crit, single target), also it kind of is being implemented to stop people from recharging ultimate while out of combat in pvp(i'm sure 1 slow dps with 23 healers vs any pve mob in Cyrodiil will still manage to do it effectively in 24 man group

)

New system likely will bring more balanced ultimate recharge between any builds.

tinythinker · December 2014

Scroll up a bit and there is a post about how to achieve such balance without affecting game play

Darkonflare15 · December 2014

tinythinker wrote: »

Scroll up a bit and there is a post about how to achieve such balance without affecting game play

I always find player ideas for balance just as bad the developer ideas of balance because one is a ideal probably never work with the system and the other leaves us in the dark about why they really are doing it.

Faulgor · December 2014

When we first heard about Finesse, I was excited for a system that directly rewards skillful play. While the current system falls short in some regards - especially that the main source for ultimate gain are critical hits -, the proposed change throws out the whole system and turns it into an odd metagame of hitting mobs with light attacks every 8 seconds to keep the buff up. That is not skillful, reactionary play, that is just tedious.

I don't know if this would be balanced, but I'd like to see ultimate gain via
- Blocking power attacks
- Interrupting
- Exploiting stunned enemies
- Using synergies
- Killing enemies, based on the resources (mainly Health) you have left. The more health you have left when your enemy dies, the more ultimate you should gain. The kill should count for everyone participating in the fight, including healers.
OR
- While in combat, you constantly generate ultimate. When your health drops, you generate less, and below a certain amount, none at all.

What shouldn't gain ultimate
- Blocking
- Dealing damage

Tavore1138 · December 2014

So... does this mean that I have to either use animation cancelling or reduce my efficiency to generate ultimate?

I.e. No abilities but those that mention ultimate will generate any? Crit hits will not generate any? Aoe stuff like drain power will not generate any?

If so I am starting to wonder what they are trying to achieve...

prototypefb · December 2014

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

So... does this mean that I have to either use animation cancelling or reduce my efficiency to generate ultimate?

I.e. No abilities but those that mention ultimate will generate any? Crit hits will not generate any? Aoe stuff like drain power will not generate any?

If so I am starting to wonder what they are trying to achieve...

i'm sure ZOS know what they are doing, so trust them, what's worst that can happen?

Tavore1138 · December 2014

prototypefb wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

So... does this mean that I have to either use animation cancelling or reduce my efficiency to generate ultimate?

I.e. No abilities but those that mention ultimate will generate any? Crit hits will not generate any? Aoe stuff like drain power will not generate any?

If so I am starting to wonder what they are trying to achieve...

i'm sure ZOS know what they are doing, so trust them, what's worst that can happen?

Given their track record so far I am not ruling out global nuclear apocalypse

Brasseurfb16_ESO · December 2014

Faulgor wrote: »

When we first heard about Finesse, I was excited for a system that directly rewards skillful play. While the current system falls short in some regards - especially that the main source for ultimate gain are critical hits -, the proposed change throws out the whole system and turns it into an odd metagame of hitting mobs with light attacks every 8 seconds to keep the buff up. That is not skillful, reactionary play, that is just tedious.

I don't know if this would be balanced, but I'd like to see ultimate gain via
- Blocking power attacks
- Interrupting
- Exploiting stunned enemies
- Using synergies
- Killing enemies, based on the resources (mainly Health) you have left. The more health you have left when your enemy dies, the more ultimate you should gain. The kill should count for everyone participating in the fight, including healers.
OR
- While in combat, you constantly generate ultimate. When your health drops, you generate less, and below a certain amount, none at all.

What shouldn't gain ultimate
- Blocking
- Dealing damage

I totally agree with this,

Ultimate generation should favour team/skillfull play and not some nonsense rotation like they are planning to do.

I think ultimate should generate at a slow rate in fights to allow moderate usage of ultimate abilities and finesse should be an extension to that generation. Efficient use of dodge, synergy, exploit mechanics should generate extra ultimate when succesfully used thus increasing the rate at which you can use ultimate abilities.

The Devs should just stick to the basic,
- Anyone can dodge
- Anyone can block a power attack
- Anyone can break free
- Anyone can interupt
- Anyone can use synergies
- Anyone can exploit with heavy attacks
- Anyone can resurrect

The only issue I might see with this idea is dodge spamming in PvP. To prevent insane generation when focussed fired I would limit the extra ultimate generation when dodging an attack once for a succesfull dodge.

Edit : Skill synergies should also be restrained in some ways, like only generating while in combat, to prevent teams from using Blood Well or Bone Shield like an ultimate generator before fights.

This might requiere some extra insight and tweaking of course, but its far better compared to their current idea of an ultimate buffrotation on light/heavy attacks...

Teargrants · December 2014

Tamriel Foundry wrote:

Now whenever you attack, you will gain a buff that gives you 3 Ultimate per second for 3 seconds. We settled on that number using an average character who was performing one ability (with light attack weave) per second with an average critical strike rating as a normalizing benchmark which put Ultimate generation at a rate we were happy with.

Where is everyone getting the '8 sec buff' thing from, or is the Foundry's transcription wrong?

Rev Rielle · December 2014

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

When we first heard about Finesse, I was excited for a system that directly rewards skillful play. While the current system falls short in some regards - especially that the main source for ultimate gain are critical hits -, the proposed change throws out the whole system and turns it into an odd metagame of hitting mobs with light attacks every 8 seconds to keep the buff up. That is not skillful, reactionary play, that is just tedious.

I don't know if this would be balanced, but I'd like to see ultimate gain via
- Blocking power attacks
- Interrupting
- Exploiting stunned enemies
- Using synergies
- Killing enemies, based on the resources (mainly Health) you have left. The more health you have left when your enemy dies, the more ultimate you should gain. The kill should count for everyone participating in the fight, including healers.
OR
- While in combat, you constantly generate ultimate. When your health drops, you generate less, and below a certain amount, none at all.

What shouldn't gain ultimate
- Blocking
- Dealing damage

I totally agree with this,

Ultimate generation should favour team/skillfull play and not some nonsense rotation like they are planning to do.

I think ultimate should generate at a slow rate in fights to allow moderate usage of ultimate abilities and finesse should be an extension to that generation. Efficient use of dodge, synergy, exploit mechanics should generate extra ultimate when succesfully used thus increasing the rate at which you can use ultimate abilities.

The Devs should just stick to the basic,
- Anyone can dodge
- Anyone can block a power attack
- Anyone can break free
- Anyone can interupt
- Anyone can use synergies
- Anyone can exploit with heavy attacks
- Anyone can resurrect

The only issue I might see with this idea is dodge spamming in PvP. To prevent insane generation when focussed fired I would limit the extra ultimate generation when dodging an attack once for a succesfull dodge.

Edit : Skill synergies should also be restrained in some ways, like only generating while in combat, to prevent teams from using Blood Well or Bone Shield like an ultimate generator before fights.

This might requiere some extra insight and tweaking of course, but its far better compared to their current idea of an ultimate buffrotation on light/heavy attacks...

Yes, I agree with you both.

Whilst the new system they're putting in place is certainly not so bad as many people are prophesying (people - especially players - just fear change regardless), and I think it's a big step in the right direction from where the system currently is at. Having it more skill-based, like you've both suggested above, would be even better.

DeLindsay · December 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Where is everyone getting the '8 sec buff' thing from, or is the Foundry's transcription wrong?

All of us that watched the live stream where they talked about the upcoming 1.6 changes and the Champion System.

Sanct16 · December 2014

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Well ultimates will be ultimate now and not nessessary to play well, as every one Will be more equal then they were.

In my understanding ultimate means something like "best" or "strongest". Not "rarest".

But yes, everyone will be even more equal. So it will be more about numbers, than player skill. AWESOME.

Darkonflare15 · December 2014

Now that had enough time to think about. When did ultimate gained determine how skilled you are? Now as I understand people keep complaining because a person who is not dodging, blocking, and attacking properly gets to have the same ultimate gained as a suppose skill person. You should not be doing, blocking, and attacking properly for ultimate gain. You should be doing these things to survived normal game play. Ultimate gain has never been for skill but for people figure out cheap methods to gain ultimate faster so they can spam it continuously.

Now skills are actually useful now. Skills,passives, and armor that now give you ultimate gain are more useful than it was before. You can now form more strategies to gain more ultimate gain instead of just stacking or spamming aoe to get ultimate faster. Using light attacks should never been a strategy because light attacks are part of combat and should be uses by all builds. Tanks should be attacking instead of just blocking so they can keep aggro on themselves anyway.

Since skills has been revamp some skills might be getting ultimate gain on them. So people should be still getting ultimate on them like they are now. Now we do not have to worry about random skills generating too much ultimate because they are not suppose to be. They are probably making some ultimate stronger so they feel more like ultimates instead spamable skills. There is so many good things that can come from this but as usually there is going to be plenty of naysayers. I guess we will not find out until it hit the pts or if eso actually show us a video on how this done but I doubt it.

Alphashado · December 2014

My concern is that at the end of the day Ultimate skills are going to charge slower for everyone. Those of us that are accustomed to using them and being charged when we need them to be are going to be disappointed. I very much hope that I am wrong, but I get the very distinct feeling that is is going to be a flat out blanket nerf on Ultimates.

Skullemainia · December 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

So I asked this question numerous times during the Twitch stream.

They said that you would get a buff after using a light or heavy attack that would generate ultimate. Does this then mean that nothing else will generate ultimate? For example all of our class and weapon skills.

They didn't confirm or deny whether it will be the only way to generate ultimate. Did I misinterpret or is further clarification required? I've not got time stamps as they spoke about it at least twice.

That's not the only way to generate Ultimate; you can also use a few abilities to get more, such as Carve from the 2H skill line (and the amount of Ultimate that ability gives has been rebalanced as well) or healing another player with the Ultimate gain buff. You will not gain Ultimate by blocking or dodging.

so tanks, you are screwed!!!!!

AshySamurai · December 2014

Skullemainia wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

So I asked this question numerous times during the Twitch stream.

They said that you would get a buff after using a light or heavy attack that would generate ultimate. Does this then mean that nothing else will generate ultimate? For example all of our class and weapon skills.

They didn't confirm or deny whether it will be the only way to generate ultimate. Did I misinterpret or is further clarification required? I've not got time stamps as they spoke about it at least twice.

That's not the only way to generate Ultimate; you can also use a few abilities to get more, such as Carve from the 2H skill line (and the amount of Ultimate that ability gives has been rebalanced as well) or healing another player with the Ultimate gain buff. You will not gain Ultimate by blocking or dodging.

so tanks, you are screwed!!!!!

Nope. We still can benefit from WW passive.

Carter_DC · December 2014

linear ulti gain = cooldown ability.
why not simply make a combat timer then ?

btw most new players don't know squatt about weaving, guess they won't know what ultimates are until they are forced to conform to the dps way.

Epsilon_Echo · December 2014

Depending on the rate of gain this could Bjork trial speed runs beyond all repair. What wonders we have to discover in 1.6.