Why does ZOS hate Sorcs?

Derra · December 2014

Farorin wrote: »

All these Sorcs whinging. Sorcs are still crazy OP, just the other day I saw a Sorc being ganked by 6 other players including myself. The sorc destroyed two of us, before making an easy escape. Only to come back with reinforcements.

This is still a common occurrence for me, sorcs are still OP compared to NBs, and I see them shredding on the battlefield more often than not.

Yeah. It´s always the opponents class. Never would it occur to beings like you that it might be your build or playstyle or that the other player is simply better at pushing 5 buttons

.
If the discribed is a COMMON occurrence for you the Problem is between chair and monitor. Not meant to be offensive.
Every Class can stand their ground 1v1 given the right build. 6 players jumping a single sorc and suffering losses on their side are simply playing horrible. Nothing else.

Teargrants · December 2014

Farorin wrote: »

All these Sorcs whinging. Sorcs are still crazy OP, just the other day I saw a Sorc being ganked by 6 other players including myself. The sorc destroyed two of us, before making an easy escape. Only to come back with reinforcements.

This is still a common occurrence for me, sorcs are still OP compared to NBs, and I see them shredding on the battlefield more often than not.

So 6 of you not only couldn't kill 1 person, 2 of you can't survive 1 person, and on top of it all, none of you have any tools to pursue/inhibit bolt escape? This has nothing to do with the 1 guy you ganked being OP at this point, it has everything to do with each of you being horrible players.

Derra · December 2014

I have to add i don´t think bolt escape is balanceable. Its always going to be borderline OP or useless. Right now it only becomes usable with very specific gear choices. In my opinion that is not really a desirable state of an ability. Which is why so many people want it unnerfed.

The underlying problem for sorcs atm is not the nerfed bolt escape though. Its the plentora of useless class abilities for pvp:

Bound Armor, Familar, Twilight in all situations
rune prison in all situations

very niche abilities are:

Mines, Root, dark exchange, storm armor, lightning spash

More than half of the sorc abilities (not counting ultimates) are useless or extremely limited in use.
Furthermore the useful Sorc abilities have obvious Morph choices. There are no tradeoffs. There is not even a second thought when choosing sorc skill morph. Its plain obvious. Hence all sorcs use the same class abilities and more or less have the same playstyle.
(The exception being bolt escape where both morphs are good for different playstyles and mages wrath where you could aswell play unmorphed bc the morphs add nothing interesting to the skill)

I don´t think unnerfing bolt escape will help the sorc class that much. I´d much rather have other useful skillchoices.
However i would like a modification to streak. It never was an escape tool for me. It was the sorcerer classes instand dd. Add sth to streak that when you hit an enemy player the cost does not get increased so that it becomes usable as what it was intended: An instant direct damage spell.

WRX · December 2014

Farorin wrote: »

All these Sorcs whinging. Sorcs are still crazy OP, just the other day I saw a Sorc being ganked by 6 other players including myself. The sorc destroyed two of us, before making an easy escape. Only to come back with reinforcements.

This is still a common occurrence for me, sorcs are still OP compared to NBs, and I see them shredding on the battlefield more often than not.

Id probably uninstall. Just me.

cozmon3c_ESO · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

Couldn't help but notice how easily any nb's went down:)

In fact the only class you seemed to have an issue with was sorcs?

Most night blades don't block, low health and just sit there and spam lethal arrow, making them easy kill. Plus I have curse, and streak to counter roll dodge and cloak. There are still plenty of night blades that dupe me and I can't find. The toughest night blades for me as a sorc to fight are mage night blades with endless fear.

Sorcs are tough if they use ball of light, most the time you cannot hit them, unless you are able to get them to chase you. I found a sweet spot to get around the balls of light, but there has to be 2 up at the same time, and between Sheilds constantly being spammed and balls I would have to have a bow or two hander on to deal with them effectively.

JaJaLuka · December 2014

Fruitdog wrote: »

Aren't the top 4 or 5 players on NA Thornblade Sorcs? IJS...

Top as in most AP, or most skilled?

JaJaLuka · December 2014

Spangla wrote: »

Is this thread a troll? Sorc is beast in pvp

Xiphyla wrote: »

I lol-ed pretty hard when people say sorc are underpowered. I'm sure this thread is a troll.

Please play one, go 1 on 1 with some other players, THEN come back and say that.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2014

Again this is not a troll thread.

Sometimes you have to get creative (like i did with this thread title) to get some attention centered on this issue to be discussed. This thread now has nearly 100 comments, including 1 from ZOS. This is what i wanted. Sorcs and their class issues need to be discussed.

We are by far the weakest class in the game in damage, DPS, etc...If i didn't have tons of Tri-Pots and be willing to risk myself at times using Dark Conversion to trade all my stamina for magic to use BE, the class wouldn't even be playable.

Please note that Dark Conversion has a HUGE cost and risk associated with it..it drains Stamina...the lack of Stamina is what gets most people killed as without stamina you can't block, dodge roll, break stun, break disoreint, get up off the ground after being knocked down, or anything..hence you die..so its a very significant trade off and has way more risk associated with it then any other class skill...its not free i assure you.

As a traditional mage in LA and a staff, staying out of melee is integral to me surviving and my playstyle. Even before the BE nerfit was possible to be caught and killed, Gap closers like Sheild Charge and Templars Toppling Charge work very well for this.

Streak users are even easier as Shards, Binding Javelin, etc can knock them and lock them down...Ball of Lighting is harder to catch people, but it does not physical daamge like Streak and is purely a defensive skill.

The crux is, if ZOS is not going to remove the nerfs off of Bolt Escape, or try and balance that skill(which is integral to our class) then they need to revamp the skill line.

Sorcs have no self heal..DK have GDB, NB have a good Siphon(better then what we have), Templars well enough said, Sorcs...we have nothing...Crit Surge is a roll of the RNG, Dark Exchange costs a lot of stamina in trade and is unusable in a combat situation. In pvp its a death sentence fora Sorc to not run a Resto staff on 1 bar...

The Sorc class needs fixed. thats the point of this post, and i am glad it is getting constructivly discussed.

Jahosefat · December 2014

woodsro wrote: »

Again this is not a troll thread.

Sometimes you have to get creative (like i did with this thread title) to get some attention centered on this issue to be discussed. This thread now has nearly 100 comments, including 1 from ZOS. This is what i wanted. Sorcs and their class issues need to be discussed.

We are by far the weakest class in the game in damage, DPS, etc...If i didn't have tons of Tri-Pots and be willing to risk myself at times using Dark Conversion to trade all my stamina for magic to use BE, the class wouldn't even be playable.

Please note that Dark Conversion has a HUGE cost and risk associated with it..it drains Stamina...the lack of Stamina is what gets most people killed as without stamina you can't block, dodge roll, break stun, break disoreint, get up off the ground after being knocked down, or anything..hence you die..so its a very significant trade off and has way more risk associated with it then any other class skill...its not free i assure you.

As a traditional mage in LA and a staff, staying out of melee is integral to me surviving and my playstyle. Even before the BE nerfit was possible to be caught and killed, Gap closers like Sheild Charge and Templars Toppling Charge work very well for this.

Streak users are even easier as Shards, Binding Javelin, etc can knock them and lock them down...Ball of Lighting is harder to catch people, but it does not physical daamge like Streak and is purely a defensive skill.

The crux is, if ZOS is not going to remove the nerfs off of Bolt Escape, or try and balance that skill(which is integral to our class) then they need to revamp the skill line.

Sorcs have no self heal..DK have GDB, NB have a good Siphon(better then what we have), Templars well enough said, Sorcs...we have nothing...Crit Surge is a roll of the RNG, Dark Exchange costs a lot of stamina in trade and is unusable in a combat situation. In pvp its a death sentence fora Sorc to not run a Resto staff on 1 bar...

The Sorc class needs fixed. thats the point of this post, and i am glad it is getting constructivly discussed.

Lots of good here. I wanted to emphasize the copious use of tri-pots on sorcs. It is incredible how many tri-pots I can go through in a night on my sorc (easily 100+). And with the current prices/harvest times this represents a huge gold/time sink. It would be really nice if we could buy tri-pots with AP, but that is another discussion.

Derra · December 2014

Jahosefat wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Again this is not a troll thread.

Sometimes you have to get creative (like i did with this thread title) to get some attention centered on this issue to be discussed. This thread now has nearly 100 comments, including 1 from ZOS. This is what i wanted. Sorcs and their class issues need to be discussed.

We are by far the weakest class in the game in damage, DPS, etc...If i didn't have tons of Tri-Pots and be willing to risk myself at times using Dark Conversion to trade all my stamina for magic to use BE, the class wouldn't even be playable.

Please note that Dark Conversion has a HUGE cost and risk associated with it..it drains Stamina...the lack of Stamina is what gets most people killed as without stamina you can't block, dodge roll, break stun, break disoreint, get up off the ground after being knocked down, or anything..hence you die..so its a very significant trade off and has way more risk associated with it then any other class skill...its not free i assure you.

As a traditional mage in LA and a staff, staying out of melee is integral to me surviving and my playstyle. Even before the BE nerfit was possible to be caught and killed, Gap closers like Sheild Charge and Templars Toppling Charge work very well for this.

Streak users are even easier as Shards, Binding Javelin, etc can knock them and lock them down...Ball of Lighting is harder to catch people, but it does not physical daamge like Streak and is purely a defensive skill.

The crux is, if ZOS is not going to remove the nerfs off of Bolt Escape, or try and balance that skill(which is integral to our class) then they need to revamp the skill line.

Sorcs have no self heal..DK have GDB, NB have a good Siphon(better then what we have), Templars well enough said, Sorcs...we have nothing...Crit Surge is a roll of the RNG, Dark Exchange costs a lot of stamina in trade and is unusable in a combat situation. In pvp its a death sentence fora Sorc to not run a Resto staff on 1 bar...

The Sorc class needs fixed. thats the point of this post, and i am glad it is getting constructivly discussed.

Lots of good here. I wanted to emphasize the copious use of tri-pots on sorcs. It is incredible how many tri-pots I can go through in a night on my sorc (easily 100+). And with the current prices/harvest times this represents a huge gold/time sink. It would be really nice if we could buy tri-pots with AP, but that is another discussion.

I really hope this will never happen as it would give AP more of a pricetag they already have.
Besides i enjoy farming flowers to make money

Columba · December 2014

I use plenty of tripots on my NB. No reason to claim a class is broken.

Reverb · December 2014

All my toons have a wicked tripot addiction, this is not a class specific gold sink, I assure you.

Aldul · December 2014

Lorkhan wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The Sorc Class Short comings

Lets take Reflective Scales and do the same thing.

Lets do the same thing to Green Dragon Blood

Lets take Templar's Blazing Sheild and give it the same nerf.

yes!

yes!!!

Aldul · December 2014

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I really hope sorcs dps will be fixed because its so low compaired to dk or nb.
I dont have a sorc but i have a nightblade and dk. even a blind man can tell sorcs need a fix.

I didn't see the eso pvp tv about update 6 yet. They'll add a lot of things like mana bomb, aoe caps and all that. Champion System comes. What about the balancing regarding sorcs now?

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2014

Well the bits and pieces I heard from the update, sorcs are just getting another Nerf.

This doesn't surprise me mind you, sorcs get hit with her bat every update while the other classes are left alone for the most part.

Bolt escape allowed us to escape..that's the skills name so it has an absurd cost and magic cost.

Reflective scales renders 80% of the games skills useless and all it gets is a 4 projectile limit, so 4 projectiles in 4 seconds is par for the course right now...9 out of 10 times a DK will have to recast scales anyways because it only lasts 4 secs it changes nothing for them.

I shouldn't expect any less

I'm beginning to see why many of the really great players like ezareth and others left this game...im finally starting to see why....

Jahosefat · December 2014

Columba wrote: »

I use plenty of tripots on my NB. No reason to claim a class is broken.

NB are in a similar boat. I'm not saying it's evidence the class is broke, it's just the one of (if the not the) best heal sorcs have available. And its kind of expensive. If I was making a wishlist, I would request a sorc passive that increases potion effect or reduces cooldown etc. I mean lore wise that makes sense right? A lot of sorcerers were alchemists.. One can dream.

Nicko_Lps · December 2014

Aldul wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I really hope sorcs dps will be fixed because its so low compaired to dk or nb.
I dont have a sorc but i have a nightblade and dk. even a blind man can tell sorcs need a fix.

I didn't see the eso pvp tv about update 6 yet. They'll add a lot of things like mana bomb, aoe caps and all that. Champion System comes. What about the balancing regarding sorcs now?

As someone said above a sorc is a beast in 1vs1 when he knows what to do and when he hasa solo build.

What is bad about sorcs is their dps in PVE and their AoE on PVP between zergs.
Nerfing down DK's as it happens now or maybe nerfing nightblades isnt the sollution to any of the sorc problems.
I was never pleased to know on pvp that our sorcs are negating machines and nothing else..

But as you said we will see whats on the update 6 because they claimed alot of skills are on the conversation table.

Derra · December 2014

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Aldul wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I really hope sorcs dps will be fixed because its so low compaired to dk or nb.
I dont have a sorc but i have a nightblade and dk. even a blind man can tell sorcs need a fix.

I didn't see the eso pvp tv about update 6 yet. They'll add a lot of things like mana bomb, aoe caps and all that. Champion System comes. What about the balancing regarding sorcs now?

As someone said above a sorc is a beast in 1vs1 when he knows what to do and when he hasa solo build.

What is bad about sorcs is their dps in PVE and their AoE on PVP between zergs.
Nerfing down DK's as it happens now or maybe nerfing nightblades isnt the sollution to any of the sorc problems.
I was never pleased to know on pvp that our sorcs are negating machines and nothing else..

But as you said we will see whats on the update 6 because they claimed alot of skills are on the conversation table.

I can´t agree with you on that one. A sorc is really, really, really REALLY hard to kill 1v1 especially for melee opponents. But it comes with the tradeoff that they are also really bad at killing stuff (statement only true for S&B, with destro staff they gain killing power but the loss in survivability exceeds that one by far from my perspective).
Why are sorcs bad at killing stuff? Curse only hits every 4 seconds for 450 to 550 dmg. Mages Fury (the main "spam" direct dmg spell) is a finisher and thus by design deals almost no dmg on high health targets 140 to 200 dmg per cast that is.
Crystal fragments. The big hitter. Only problem: Its a reflectable projectile. Sorcs have to use S&B-reflect to make it hit reliable. With the block bonuses against projectiles it does not hit for high DMG at all. 650 to 700 non block becomes 180 to 240 blocked. There goes your big hit.
Why is this a problem? Sorc can not drain the opponents stamina (curse and wrath are not blocked thus they don´t drain stamina). Even with base Stamina regeneration most classes can block endlessly against a sorcerer because the ONLY spell they actually have to block is the random procced crystal fragments (I don´t want to go into detail how crappy rng mechanics for dmg are in my opinion). A competent player can under no circumstance go out of stamina against a sorcerer. By know it is common knowledge that stamina is life in pvp.
This leaves the sorc with about 150 to 250 dps against blocking opponents if they can remain offensive 100% of the time (they can not if the opponent actively tries to kill the sorc).
This leads to the (i have to admit subjective) fact that the only way sorcerers get 1v1 kills is when the opponent fails their resource management or is playing worse than the sorc in other aspects.
(A good example for my point is the final fights of the EU-Server Arena guild tournament where i fight Dusk, a high defense DK. Even though i have more agression time i fail to even break his shields most of the fight. In the end one burst rotation from him goes through block and i loose.)

I´m not doing bad on my sorc. I´m just not happy that i can´t press the issue and if i go up against a smart opponent i have to fight on their terms or leave them alone (Magica based Templars suffering the same issues against ranged vs melee they got blazing shield

. I´ve seen stamina 2h build do really well though).

Xiphyla · December 2014

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Is this thread a troll? Sorc is beast in pvp

Xiphyla wrote: »

I lol-ed pretty hard when people say sorc are underpowered. I'm sure this thread is a troll.

Please play one, go 1 on 1 with some other players, THEN come back and say that.

Dude , i play my friend sorc a/c before. Sorc in 1v1 or group are still as powerful as it is. I not sure if you wanna troll or trying to be funny.

Derra · December 2014

Xiphyla wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

Is this thread a troll? Sorc is beast in pvp

Xiphyla wrote: »

I lol-ed pretty hard when people say sorc are underpowered. I'm sure this thread is a troll.

Please play one, go 1 on 1 with some other players, THEN come back and say that.

Dude , i play my friend sorc a/c before. Sorc in 1v1 or group are still as powerful as it is. I not sure if you wanna troll or trying to be funny.

Well i hope you meet a good opponent one day ._.

Aldul · December 2014

Sorcs are kinda slacking with killing stuff only if they are alone / 1vs.X (and even then it depends on build and playstyle. Even dual wield stamina sorcs exist and can do pretty well I guess) so in groups they are the best non-healing support class imo (and support means the group will be 'killing stuff' a lot more

)

negates win fights and kill whole raids, esp. when your'e with a bombgroup (most powerful ulti in the game! no cap..),
liquid lightning with conduit (best synergy in the game) is extremely powerful and raises group dps like hell (when group members dont forget about synergize ofc!!)
the shattering prison is not bad,
and as a high elf sorcs e.g. youre very good with destro aoe and occasional single target dps.

so for (bomb) groups sorcs are a real advantage. at least thats my experience leading and following. am I wrong here?

Derra · December 2014

Apart from negate there is nothing another class can´t do better than a sorc in bomb groups...

Soulac · December 2014

Sorcs need love, no matter what you say.
I say that as a NB, cause the only thing Sorcs can do is spamming negate in groups.
They deal nice AoE dmg, but other classes can do it as well or even better.

Aldul · December 2014

while the negate makes the difference well timed and placed, I'm fine with that @Derra‌. But which synergie is more powerful than conduit again? When we have 1 sorc in bombgroup, we loose. When we have 6+ we win. That's not all because of the negates, is it?

Derra · December 2014

Aldul wrote: »

while the negate makes the difference well timed and placed, I'm fine with that @Derra‌. But which synergie is more powerful than conduit again? When we have 1 sorc in bombgroup, we loose. When we have 6+ we win. That's not all because of the negates, is it?

It is most certainly because of the many Negates.
I´d like to say that impale is equally powerful to conduit damage wise. The positive side effect being that it comes from a root ability enemys won´t just run out of the circle thus making impale superior to conduit from my perspective.

I´m not fine with Sorcs being a one trick pony in groups. Even if it is for the arguably most powerful ultimate in said scenario.

cozmon3c_ESO · December 2014

Its not the Bomb Group Sorc that needs a buff lol, its the single target damage sorc.

Manoekin · December 2014

A morph of negate that is a giant reflect bubble!

Make it happen ZOS.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2014

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Its not the Bomb Group Sorc that needs a buff lol, its the single target damage sorc.

I ran primarily a single target sorc build. The keyword being "ran". As of yesterday my sorc is shelved permantly until ZOS fixes it.

The way they went about nerfing sharpened hurt sorcs bad. The fact in pve I have 140+ spell damage, but soon as I enter cyrodiol my spell damage gets nerfed down to 129-130 which prior I don't believe it scaled that low.

Point is unless you don't want stuff reflected in your face, your forced to use curse and mages wrath and very careful placement of shards, but you simply can't do enough damage to kill anyone who half way knows what they are doing. Weapon damage skills hit way harder then any of the sorc class based skills.

If your way better then your opponent sure you can win, but if skill level is around equal you gotta play out of your freakin head to win against any other class. This is why you see so many streak fleeing sorcs, our damage freakin sucks all around.

My bow temp alt I'm working on, he does way more damage then my sorc, its magnitudes more.

7 out of 10 players are DK the prevalence of scales and defensive posture means crushing shock is a death sentence, the fact they nerfed spell damage awhile back and crushing shock will soon be based off will make it more pointless.

The fact they refuse to fix the block casting nonsense and have forced me to actually use it...nah.. I'm leaving pvp for awhile and will take my good time leveling my temp alt.

Its not only sorcs, there are a lot of broken mechanics in this game they refuse to fix such as the shield charge talon perma stun, yet they continue to add new stuff without fixing the problems with the base game.

Its just may very well lead me to pulling my card off my account in the not so distant future, and 20 of my guilies are on the brink of following suit. Their refusal to fix the issues with the base game just may very well cost them big time.

NordJitsu · December 2014

woodsro wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Its not the Bomb Group Sorc that needs a buff lol, its the single target damage sorc.

I ran primarily a single target sorc build. The keyword being "ran". As of yesterday my sorc is shelved permantly until ZOS fixes it.

The way they went about nerfing sharpened hurt sorcs bad. The fact in pve I have 140+ spell damage, but soon as I enter cyrodiol my spell damage gets nerfed down to 129-130 which prior I don't believe it scaled that low.

Point is unless you don't want stuff reflected in your face, your forced to use curse and mages wrath and very careful placement of shards, but you simply can't do enough damage to kill anyone who half way knows what they are doing. Weapon damage skills hit way harder then any of the sorc class based skills.

If your way better then your opponent sure you can win, but if skill level is around equal you gotta play out of your freakin head to win against any other class. This is why you see so many streak fleeing sorcs, our damage freakin sucks all around.

My bow temp alt I'm working on, he does way more damage then my sorc, its magnitudes more.

7 out of 10 players are DK the prevalence of scales and defensive posture means crushing shock is a death sentence, the fact they nerfed spell damage awhile back and crushing shock will soon be based off will make it more pointless.

The fact they refuse to fix the block casting nonsense and have forced me to actually use it...nah.. I'm leaving pvp for awhile and will take my good time leveling my temp alt.

Its not only sorcs, there are a lot of broken mechanics in this game they refuse to fix such as the shield charge talon perma stun, yet they continue to add new stuff without fixing the problems with the base game.

Its just may very well lead me to pulling my card off my account in the not so distant future, and 20 of my guilies are on the brink of following suit. Their refusal to fix the issues with the base game just may very well cost them big time.

In the same boat. Medium armor stamina bow/2hand builds trump any thing a magicka build can do right now.

I'm leveling my Ranger Templar and more or less giving up on a magicka sorc.

FluffiestOne · December 2014

Sorcs are one of the best classes. I've seen some amazing sorcs doing aoe and single target.