Lava_Croft wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks that even with the health debuff stacking being fixed, it's still pretty silly that you can dish out around 1k damage every 1.1s from an insane distance, without ever really putting yourself at risk of anything? To me it's pretty clear that the debuff stacking wasn't really the problem with Snipe. It's the fact that it's the longest distance attack, among the highest damaging attacks and it comes with a health debuff which just makes no real sense to me.

I guess I'm just a noob? (that should roll, dodge, block, etc?)

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

Most of the problem is that ZOS does not support pvp..
Its that simple.. they are all about pve...

People use Snipe because its the only effective build that doesn't involve wearing a bath robe.

If you get ganked by Snipe and QQ you are a dress wearer who doesn't understand stamina builds, save your tears for the sewing circle ladies.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

Oh I'll complain then about several DK charging in the front lines kickin my a**.

Or how about several healers lurking at the back healing.

Or what about the several players that rushed me after I sniped a guy today when I was sneaking in the backlines.

Then there was the Templar sneaking behind my backline when I was sneaking behind his mates backline. I'm gonna complain !!!!

It seems as if you don't even want to understand...

DKs charging in are setting themselves at risk.

Healers who have to stay close to their allies to heal them are setting themselves at risk.

An assassin behind the enemy lines is setting himself at a risk.

The enemy archer behind the enemy lines is not setting himself at risk due to his wide range. I have to admit, it can happen that some angry players eventually ignore everything else and charge from player to player to get at least one of those archers. Minor risk.

Now, who will be the strongest force on the field? Guess what...
The archer actually has a heal debuff and the highest single target damage of all of them, with the lowest risk.

Nacario wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

And what sort of arguement is this, it's logic that many vs one no matter what setup will dominate. Lets just throw out random for the sake of the discussion, lol

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

Samadhi wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

If a player that can normally take on multiple enemies dies to multiple enemies, it must be indicative of a skill those enemies use being imbalanced.
Of course, having one player bulldozing groups of multiple other players does not Reflect on any skill issues; it is only when that player dies to multiple people that something must be wrong.

Who was talking about many vs one...

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

Oh I'll complain then about several DK charging in the front lines kickin my a**.

Or how about several healers lurking at the back healing.

Or what about the several players that rushed me after I sniped a guy today when I was sneaking in the backlines.

Then there was the Templar sneaking behind my backline when I was sneaking behind his mates backline. I'm gonna complain !!!!

It seems as if you don't even want to understand...

DKs charging in are setting themselves at risk.

Healers who have to stay close to their allies to heal them are setting themselves at risk.

An assassin behind the enemy lines is setting himself at a risk.

The enemy archer behind the enemy lines is not setting himself at risk due to his wide range. I have to admit, it can happen that some angry players eventually ignore everything else and charge from player to player to get at least one of those archers. Minor risk.

Now, who will be the strongest force on the field? Guess what...
The archer actually has a heal debuff and the highest single target damage of all of them, with the lowest risk.

Nacario wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

And what sort of arguement is this, it's logic that many vs one no matter what setup will dominate. Lets just throw out random for the sake of the discussion, lol

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

Samadhi wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

If a player that can normally take on multiple enemies dies to multiple enemies, it must be indicative of a skill those enemies use being imbalanced.
Of course, having one player bulldozing groups of multiple other players does not Reflect on any skill issues; it is only when that player dies to multiple people that something must be wrong.

Who was talking about many vs one...

LOL just lol. Archers are at risk. It's not our fault that you don't know how to put them at risk. My favorite targets are other archers.

Oh I do know how to kill an archer - practically all of them are terribad since most good players seem to refuse using bow at it's current state.
Before that buff there where some very good archers now they're mostly gone and the new ones are really crap.
I don't see how a lack of skill should be an argument against the statement archers wouldnt put themselves at any risk comparable to other players taking part in a fight.
I believe you that you like to go on them, especially if you are a bow user who has some idea of what he is doing. I personally find it hilarious sneaking in range, killing one of those squishy guys and clouding swarm streak away.

ToRelax wrote: »

The enemy archer behind the enemy lines is not setting himself at risk due to his wide range. I have to admit, it can happen that some angry players eventually ignore everything else and charge from player to player to get at least one of those archers. Minor risk.

This statement makes me realise that you have no idea what you are talking about. Just try it and see friend.

Rylana wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Concerning PvE, the few PvE players that I speak all say the same thing: Stand at the back, spam one single skill and come out with the highest DPS. That is Snipe in a nutshell in PvE.

Nope dw daggers gives far more DPS in pve. I can maintain 1k+ in SO with dw, it drops considerably to 500-600 with bow. It is a useful ranged skill but nowhere near a spam dps skill. My guild is not using lethal weapon as the main dps in trials as it does not give the highest sustained dps.

It is a useful from stealth burst skill.

DW daggers is great too, but you can pull the same dps with bow. If you're using lethal arrow in pve I dunno what to say dude...

I use lethal arrow in PvE because I am not respeccing just for the sake of loldungeons. The lost DPS can be made up by lethaling bosses and support npcs that heal each other (like the lich attendants in third stage of Crypt of Hearts), since the healcut effectively ends their healing full stop.

That being said, arrow abilities in general are really bad for most PvE content, because they have really high cost to damage ratios and cannot be sustained for long. Even with crafted potions and cost redux, you will never keep snipe @ anything more than about 75 percent uptime.

Dual wield specials on the other hand, can be kept near 100 percent uptime vs daedric/undead trash using evil hunter, and vs everything else, about 80-90.

Funny enough, because its an execute, steel tornado actually does MORE single target DPS than Focused Aim ever could, once the enemy is below 25.

Not true on snipe up time, I run kynes kiss on my dk, with 201 stamina recovery with Templar in the group, and I can perma snipe all day long. Against undead I can reach over 5k dps in aoe fights and do it endlessly since acid arrow on groups will pretty much proc kynes everytime plus evil hunter.

Nacario wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The only prob I ever seen from snipe is range. It shouldn't out range every other spell, it doesn't need to considering what it does.

Give it the same range as shards and give it 3% damage increase and it would be perfect. It would still be a deadly killer. They would just have to be slightly closer to do it.

But crystal shards does not share the same passives as Snipe. Snipe benefits from bow range passives and sneak damage, the initial impact is what hits the hardest, the bow relies on suprise - often surprising the noobs that dont care to look at their environments or their positioning. They are two vast different skills. Not only would this gimp bow, but WHY must we make them more similiar by making 1 bow skill have the same range as a magic class skill? It's also dangerous once one start going down this homogenization path, yeah lets give all classes 1 stun, a snare, lets make all abilities work like this, etc.

People are blowing this out of proportions, instead of looking at their own setup/playstyle. Certain builds will have a hard time vs bows if bows get the opener, but that bow user usually is a glass cannon and can be easily dealt with.

We never see a bow 1vX tanking people like known popular classes/builds for a reason, though we do see a lot of bow users killing noobs, one at a time, from stealth that have their focus elsewhere during siege/running to a spot, and because they couldnt get carried by the raid since they have aoe builds.

So you would be fine with snipe just being how it used to be, while having the damage increased for the nerfed stealth crit damage?

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

Oh I'll complain then about several DK charging in the front lines kickin my a**.

Or how about several healers lurking at the back healing.

Or what about the several players that rushed me after I sniped a guy today when I was sneaking in the backlines.

Then there was the Templar sneaking behind my backline when I was sneaking behind his mates backline. I'm gonna complain !!!!

It seems as if you don't even want to understand...

DKs charging in are setting themselves at risk.

Healers who have to stay close to their allies to heal them are setting themselves at risk.

An assassin behind the enemy lines is setting himself at a risk.

The enemy archer behind the enemy lines is not setting himself at risk due to his wide range. I have to admit, it can happen that some angry players eventually ignore everything else and charge from player to player to get at least one of those archers. Minor risk.

Now, who will be the strongest force on the field? Guess what...
The archer actually has a heal debuff and the highest single target damage of all of them, with the lowest risk.

Nacario wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

And what sort of arguement is this, it's logic that many vs one no matter what setup will dominate. Lets just throw out random for the sake of the discussion, lol

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

Samadhi wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Awithout ever really putting yourself at risk of anything?

[EDIT] Special edit for @Columba.

As a NB bow user from day one have to disagree with this.

To get a meaningful burst kill dps you gotta put a lot into weapon damage and crit. Its a pretty much glass cannon build and if the target heals, blocks, reflects etc you become pretty vulnerable. If you don't kill the target then your crouch stealth is revealed and you are going to get rushed.

Hitting a lone horse riding target is a no-brainer but then when I'm ganked in that situation by any class who knows their build i'm dead too.

I am not complaining about a single noob with a bow trying to gank me. If I understand correctly, Lava was referring to several snipers sneaking in the backlines of a fight.

So you think you should survive attacks from many enemies? Lol

If a player that can normally take on multiple enemies dies to multiple enemies, it must be indicative of a skill those enemies use being imbalanced.
Of course, having one player bulldozing groups of multiple other players does not Reflect on any skill issues; it is only when that player dies to multiple people that something must be wrong.

Who was talking about many vs one...

LOL just lol. Archers are at risk. It's not our fault that you don't know how to put them at risk. My favorite targets are other archers.

Oh I do know how to kill an archer - practically all of them are terribad since most good players seem to refuse using bow at it's current state.
Before that buff there where some very good archers now they're mostly gone and the new ones are really crap.
I don't see how a lack of skill should be an argument against the statement archers wouldnt put themselves at any risk comparable to other players taking part in a fight.
I believe you that you like to go on them, especially if you are a bow user who has some idea of what he is doing. I personally find it hilarious sneaking in range, killing one of those squishy guys and clouding swarm streak away.

ok so you are crying about those "100% safe" archers, yet you can easily kill them. Lol. Does anyone else note the complete lack of logic here?

I've played my sorcerer with many different builds in PvP, when I am using snipe now it feels exactly as I stated. How could I otherwise say my opponents lack skill at all?

woodsro wrote: »

[quote="Nacario;1425349

If bow users are so adamant bout this range, then keep it, Just allow Defensive Posture to reflect bow projectiles too that's available to everyone.

This seems fair and not a nerf to snipe. Any character can choose 1H+S.

woodsro wrote: »

Nacario wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The only prob I ever seen from snipe is range. It shouldn't out range every other spell, it doesn't need to considering what it does.

Give it the same range as shards and give it 3% damage increase and it would be perfect. It would still be a deadly killer. They would just have to be slightly closer to do it.

But crystal shards does not share the same passives as Snipe. Snipe benefits from bow range passives and sneak damage, the initial impact is what hits the hardest, the bow relies on suprise - often surprising the noobs that dont care to look at their environments or their positioning. They are two vast different skills. Not only would this gimp bow, but WHY must we make them more similiar by making 1 bow skill have the same range as a magic class skill? It's also dangerous once one start going down this homogenization path, yeah lets give all classes 1 stun, a snare, lets make all abilities work like this, etc.

People are blowing this out of proportions, instead of looking at their own setup/playstyle. Certain builds will have a hard time vs bows if bows get the opener, but that bow user usually is a glass cannon and can be easily dealt with.

We never see a bow 1vX tanking people like known popular classes/builds for a reason, though we do see a lot of bow users killing noobs, one at a time, from stealth that have their focus elsewhere during siege/running to a spot, and because they couldnt get carried by the raid since they have aoe builds.

You would still outrange all other skills because of passives and gear you just wouldn't outrange as much.

Gimping you? 3% damage increase would mean you would kill faster with skill then you do now. The bow should have a range advantage, but snipe range advantage right now is too pronounced.

As much as it pains me to says this, Regective Scales is the only hard counter to snipe in the game and its only available to one class and OP in itself.

If bow users are so adamant bout this range, then keep it, Just allow Defensive Posture to reflect bow projectiles too that's available to everyone.

Crystal Shards has 4 counters(2 of them being hard counters)

1. Annulment.
2. Reflective scales
3. Defensive Posture
4. Immoveable (damage reduction prevents knockdown)


How many hard counters does snipe have besides scales that's only available to DK. Every skill in this game should have a hard counter, it means you must make meaningful choices with your 5 slots, and 1 build wont fit all circumstances.

Right now you see DK flapping all the time because its the only counter to snipe. I say this as not only a sorc, but as a bow wielding templar as well. If snipe is going to stay in its current form then it needs a hard counter, if folks are so against reducing the range slightly and slightly increasing damage, then allow Sword and Sheild Defensive Posture skill to reflect arrows then.

But is the range that significant to be the real issue here, most have some form of gap closer to get to its target. Bow users make the difference once they hit before their target notices them, and this range can vary, not all of them are at max range. My NB for instance can shadow cloak (itll make snipes miss) and ambush to stop the snipes. This isnt a hardcounter but its a tactic to work around the snipe, but in this scenario Im able to since one of my bars are towards 1v1, while offhand is blob/aoe. Some may not have the right abilities slotted, but thats what they get since they chose to specialize in something else.

A bow user also have to invest heavily into stamina, which means less focus on magica which again reduces their defensive capabilities a magica user have with larger pool, more magica skills options and light armor passives outmatching the medium passives.

And again, crystal shards is a magica class skill. A competitve sorc invested into magica tend to focus on staffs/one hand and shield which has its own passives and playstyle, often able to pop devensives like ward, something a bow user doesnt have because their designed to be aggressive - but this is where we disagree because I feel a bow user can be countered, sometimes even when they get the opener if you have the right skills and reaction. If you're in an organized group then your teammates should also be able to support you.


Id also like to add that I think its great that ZOS "experiment" with range, having (long)bows being able to outrange everyone else, spices up the battleplay, instead of having the same range across board. While solo archers on wall arnt that effective during siege, it's a fun neat addition to see during organized play.

I'll settle for being able to hear them again at this point.

Valnas wrote: »

I'll settle for being able to hear them again at this point.

Agree.

suycyco wrote: »

The day when perma block (360°) while casting is nerfed i'll be agree with nerfing snipe.
Since doing just that you can annihilate totally each stamina build I don't see why any stamina ability should be nerfed (and snipe in the list since it drop in between 150 to 300 to a blocking target)

I would say mainly because -surprise- OP snipe makes blockcasting magicka builds even more viable.

Lionxoft wrote: »

I'd settle for a max range reduction on Snipe and it's morphs. There's no reason why a player should be able to stay out of the range of guards in PvP and cap a resource so easily by themselves. I only have to drink one potion to cap the resource now as a NB solo.

I'm not sure how this would affect the PvE community exactly and there are probably different angles that I missed but this is my opinion at least. It's completely possible to PvP without using snipe while carrying a bow too.

Really?

As an NB with bow while the health debuff's were going, I could cap resources easily, now with the fix I can't, as the healers can heal through the snipes.

I'd also suggest that many classes can solo a resource, I've watched many a DK do it, also NB's that are magicka, running in on the flag and dropping veils, bats, spamming sap.