About Snipe...

Lava_Croft

Lionxoft wrote: »

Archers have absolutely no risk from NPC while taking a resource solo since we can stay outside of the range of every NPC ranged attack.

This is the same problem with player versus player combat. The risk versus the reward is just completely off when compared to everything else in the game.

RinaldoGandolphi

The more I think about this, the more I think just leave snipe as is and change Defensive Posture to reflect both spells and arrows. Its fair, everyone has access to it, and we wont be asking to Nerf snipe.

Snipe will remain as is, but now players besides DK can reflect it right back in their faces with Sword and Board. As long as snipe has a counter its fine as is.

As a sorc sometimes folks expect too much, if your in LA like me its a trade off you make...less protection for better spell casting, Snipe is very good against LA mages, its why you have to have your head on a swivel and be prepared at all times, and stay away from keep walls until your tank allies get through the breech and clear it...LA users should stay way back out of range, guard siege, set up their own suege, and be patient...you will get your kills.

Lava_Croft

Changing Defensive Stance to reflect every projectile will make S&B unevenly strong. It's already borderline ridiculous with the insane damage mitigation you receive from just holding down the block button while still being able to use skills without any penalty whatsoever.

ToRelax

woodsro wrote: »

The more I think about this, the more I think just leave snipe as is and change Defensive Posture to reflect both spells and arrows. Its fair, everyone has access to it, and we wont be asking to Nerf snipe.

Snipe will remain as is, but now players besides DK can reflect it right back in their faces with Sword and Board. As long as snipe has a counter its fine as is.

As a sorc sometimes folks expect too much, if your in LA like me its a trade off you make...less protection for better spell casting, Snipe is very good against LA mages, its why you have to have your head on a swivel and be prepared at all times, and stay away from keep walls until your tank allies get through the breech and clear it...LA users should stay way back out of range, guard siege, set up their own suege, and be patient...you will get your kills.

To be precise, you will buff mainly light armor players with one-hand/shield.

Samadhi

ToRelax wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The more I think about this, the more I think just leave snipe as is and change Defensive Posture to reflect both spells and arrows. Its fair, everyone has access to it, and we wont be asking to Nerf snipe.

Snipe will remain as is, but now players besides DK can reflect it right back in their faces with Sword and Board. As long as snipe has a counter its fine as is.

As a sorc sometimes folks expect too much, if your in LA like me its a trade off you make...less protection for better spell casting, Snipe is very good against LA mages, its why you have to have your head on a swivel and be prepared at all times, and stay away from keep walls until your tank allies get through the breech and clear it...LA users should stay way back out of range, guard siege, set up their own suege, and be patient...you will get your kills.

To be precise, you will buff mainly light armor players with one-hand/shield.

Are there a lot of complaints about Snipe coming from Medium or Heavy Armour players?

Lava_Croft

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Bane_of_Fringe

1.1 second cast time? I can break and roll before the second arrow lands. It's not a 1v1 situation? Don't like that there are 10 archers in a zerg? If you don't have 10 archers or some reflective tanks, it's on you.

KBKB

I don't see the issue, I recently started using snipe and its like its awakened this skill in me I never knew I had bringing down people left right and centre 10 vet levels above me, all off my own ability. Feels awesome to know I'm good at the game heck I can even 2 shot people now. So i don't get the anti snipe threads perhaps you should all try it, might find a niche you didn't know you had just waiting to be expressed.

Further more my IRL has improved greatly, I got a promotion in my job, finally got the courage to ask a girl out I've loved for years and she said YES, I have so much confidence now its like "Stayin Alive" is playing everywhere I go! just the other day there were some troublesome youths giving an old lady at a bus stop grief i simply looked at them and said "Hey" in my best Barry White impression and the apologised and backed off. All of this is due to snipe THANK YOU ZOS THANK YOU BOW SKILL LINE.

Nacario

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Where you able to record this archer killing all these NPCs solo?

ToRelax

Samadhi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

The more I think about this, the more I think just leave snipe as is and change Defensive Posture to reflect both spells and arrows. Its fair, everyone has access to it, and we wont be asking to Nerf snipe.

Snipe will remain as is, but now players besides DK can reflect it right back in their faces with Sword and Board. As long as snipe has a counter its fine as is.

As a sorc sometimes folks expect too much, if your in LA like me its a trade off you make...less protection for better spell casting, Snipe is very good against LA mages, its why you have to have your head on a swivel and be prepared at all times, and stay away from keep walls until your tank allies get through the breech and clear it...LA users should stay way back out of range, guard siege, set up their own suege, and be patient...you will get your kills.

To be precise, you will buff mainly light armor players with one-hand/shield.

Are there a lot of complaints about Snipe coming from Medium or Heavy Armour players?

Complains are from all PvP-players I know ingame, of wich most are wearing light but some also medium or heavy.
Why I said this is because the quotation I used stated LA would be a tradeoff in protection. A tank in heavy or medium armor will indeed benefit from such a change to defensive posture yet for example a 2-handed stamina templar in medium armor would be more vulnerable to lethal arrow than a light armor sorc with a shield.

woodsro wrote: »

[...]

As a sorc sometimes folks expect too much, if your in LA like me its a trade off you make...less protection for better spell casting, Snipe is very good against LA mages, its why you have to have your head on a swivel and be prepared at all times, and stay away from keep walls until your tank allies get through the breech and clear it...LA users should stay way back out of range, guard siege, set up their own suege, and be patient...you will get your kills.

suycyco

Let me tell you a story that happened yesterday, i was on the rocks near arrius mine attacking the red bus who was going trough the mine.
The fight was tense since the two forces (I m DC) tend to be equals, with my bow and in this position I was doing ton of damage, since a DK came for me in stealth.
He started to attack me (I was with other players of my alliance around me) I feared him and tried to escape but he was definitively come to kill me and didn't bother that all players around was targeting him, and he finally killed me and he could even came back in his bus.

Do I cried, do I make a post that DK are too powerfull (since 50% of my death are due to DK) no, it's fair the DK is the anti sniper and I have to deal with it.

martinhpb16_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Different classes don't have to use bow to solo a resource, its possible in other ways.

Your statement that an archer can solo a resource "like its nothing" is misleading and not based on anything but loaded opinion.

The archer himself did not confirm that Snipe is "ridiculous", that is your word.

RinaldoGandolphi

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Changing Defensive Stance to reflect every projectile will make S&B unevenly strong. It's already borderline ridiculous with the insane damage mitigation you receive from just holding down the block button while still being able to use skills without any penalty whatsoever.

Defensive Posture only reflects 1 time before it must be cast again, and comes with a hefty stamina cost. So casting it repeatly means you can't block as long, its a trade.

Also, AOE can't be blocked so lighting flood, impulse, volley, etc can bypass it, its part of why impulse is so popular these days among blobs.

I do think blocking itself needs a slight Nerf, but that's a topic for another thread.

DDuke

Popular=/=Good

Sorry to break it to you, but having been back for 4 days I can already tell Snipe is actually a lot worse skill than it was before.

If you are dueling a skilled player and you spam Snipe, you will lose.

If you are doing 1vX and fail to burst them down before they start spamming dmg shields/heals on each other/themselves (which is more often the case now, thanks to the stealth damage nerf), you will lose.

In fact, I'm even considering taking it off entirely from my bar when doing PvP. That's how "good" Snipe is at the moment.

How many top tier PvPers are using bow (or a stamina build, even) currently? Not many, 99% of duels for instance are still dress+stick "who runs out of magicka/stamina first" matches.
Hopefully this will change with Champion System...

If Snipe was so op, then how come there aren't any recent PvP videos out there featuring it? All I see is magicka builds tanking 20 people, which is of course fine and not broken in any way...

Can we /thread and move on please?

Nacario

DDuke wrote: »

Popular=/=Good

Sorry to break it to you, but having been back for 4 days I can already tell Snipe is actually a lot worse skill than it was before.

If you are dueling a skilled player and you spam Snipe, you will lose.

If you are doing 1vX and fail to burst them down before they start spamming dmg shields/heals on each other/themselves (which is more often the case now, thanks to the stealth damage nerf), you will lose.

In fact, I'm even considering taking it off entirely from my bar when doing PvP. That's how "good" Snipe is at the moment.

How many top tier PvPers are using bow (or a stamina build, even) currently? Not many, 99% of duels for instance are still dress+stick "who runs out of magicka/stamina first" matches.
Hopefully this will change with Champion System...

If Snipe was so op, then how come there aren't any recent PvP videos out there featuring it? All I see is magicka builds tanking 20 people, which is of course fine and not broken in any way...

Can we /thread and move on please?

This is what I and others with insight have been saying the whole time, but you know those narrow naysayers...

Lava_Croft

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Different classes don't have to use bow to solo a resource, its possible in other ways.

Your statement that an archer can solo a resource "like its nothing" is misleading and not based on anything but loaded opinion.

The archer himself did not confirm that Snipe is "ridiculous", that is your word.

This is not about classes, but about a weapon skill line. The point is not whether it's possible or not, the point is that when using a bow, there is very little risk when taking a resource solo. Anyone and anything else will have to take a risk when trying to solo a resource, while using the bow will just let you drop all the NPC's from over 40m distance, without ever really putting yourself in danger of anything.

I say 'like it's nothing' because I have been playing PvP for nearly 9 months now and I have a slight clue about taking resources.

This not about what is most popular and what top tier player is using what weapon. It's about a single skill in a single weapon skill line being unevenly strong compared to everything else in the game. Not a class, but a weapon skill available to everyone.

Dalglish

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Concerning PvE, the few PvE players that I speak all say the same thing: Stand at the back, spam one single skill and come out with the highest DPS. That is Snipe in a nutshell in PvE.

Nope dw daggers gives far more DPS in pve. I can maintain 1k+ in SO with dw, it drops considerably to 500-600 with bow. It is a useful ranged skill but nowhere near a spam dps skill. My guild is not using lethal arrow as the main dps in trials as it does not give the highest sustained dps.

It is a useful from stealth burst skill.

Guy in our guild is hitting 1.7k on Serpent with bow, so yes, bow is currently the highest DPS in game and is VERY MUCH spammable.

suycyco

Lava_Croft wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Different classes don't have to use bow to solo a resource, its possible in other ways.

Your statement that an archer can solo a resource "like its nothing" is misleading and not based on anything but loaded opinion.

The archer himself did not confirm that Snipe is "ridiculous", that is your word.

This is not about classes, but about a weapon skill line. The point is not whether it's possible or not, the point is that when using a bow, there is very little risk when taking a resource solo. Anyone and anything else will have to take a risk when trying to solo a resource, while using the bow will just let you drop all the NPC's from over 40m distance, without ever really putting yourself in danger of anything.

I say 'like it's nothing' because I have been playing PvP for nearly 9 months now and I have a slight clue about taking resources.

This not about what is most popular and what top tier player is using what weapon. It's about a single skill in a single weapon skill line being unevenly strong compared to everything else in the game. Not a class, but a weapon skill available to everyone.

You forgot about the repop on the ressource wich is quite fast, if you don't kill npc fast enough you'll take the repop when tagging (wich doing alone is veryyyyy long) and taking the repop as a sniper means you are dead (and don't talk about cloak it's broken it doesn't work with npc of cyrodiil).

I've tried once to take alone a ressource when the healing bug was still in, and it was very close to my dead, now without the bug it would be impossible for me

But like said before I would be totally agree with a nerf of snipe (range or damage or whatever) if in counterpart the perma block casting would go, or if perma block casting would be allowed to weapon skill lines.

ToRelax

suycyco wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Something will have to be changed concerning Snipe. Just now I see an archer basically solo a resource like it's nothing. The archer himself confirmed how ridiculous Snipe is at the moment.

Different classes don't have to use bow to solo a resource, its possible in other ways.

Your statement that an archer can solo a resource "like its nothing" is misleading and not based on anything but loaded opinion.

The archer himself did not confirm that Snipe is "ridiculous", that is your word.

This is not about classes, but about a weapon skill line. The point is not whether it's possible or not, the point is that when using a bow, there is very little risk when taking a resource solo. Anyone and anything else will have to take a risk when trying to solo a resource, while using the bow will just let you drop all the NPC's from over 40m distance, without ever really putting yourself in danger of anything.

I say 'like it's nothing' because I have been playing PvP for nearly 9 months now and I have a slight clue about taking resources.

This not about what is most popular and what top tier player is using what weapon. It's about a single skill in a single weapon skill line being unevenly strong compared to everything else in the game. Not a class, but a weapon skill available to everyone.

You forgot about the repop on the ressource wich is quite fast, if you don't kill npc fast enough you'll take the repop when tagging (wich doing alone is veryyyyy long) and taking the repop as a sniper means you are dead (and don't talk about cloak it's broken it doesn't work with npc of cyrodiil).

I've tried once to take alone a ressource when the healing bug was still in, and it was very close to my dead, now without the bug it would be impossible for me

But like said before I would be totally agree with a nerf of snipe (range or damage or whatever) if in counterpart the perma block casting would go, or if perma block casting would be allowed to weapon skill lines.

Crushing Shock is often being spammed from blocking, as a weapon ability - Snipe has a casttime so you can't blockcast it. But even if not, would you blockcast Snipe? If you are running it with medium armor, rolldodging wouldn't be that expensive and you even get a speed buff with it.

The blockcasting thing is rather leading to a stamina/magicka discussion now instead focussing a stamina weapon ability wich seems to strong for it's minor risk, compared to other abilities.

Xsorus

I'm honestly still amazed some of you guys are still having trouble with Bow users after the Lethal Arrow Fix.

I can't remember the last time I died to another bow user in a 1v1.....I think the only time i've died is when i'm getting zerged, and i've died to far more idiots running around in 20 man groups spamming impulse then archers.

Columba

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly still amazed some of you guys are still having trouble with Bow users after the Lethal Arrow Fix.

I can't remember the last time I died to another bow user in a 1v1.....I think the only time i've died is when i'm getting zerged, and i've died to far more idiots running around in 20 man groups spamming impulse then archers.

Agreed. While I die to lethal arrow periodically, it's often in the middle of a zerg action. More often it's fire ring spam etc. then again, i don't stand still begging enemies to gank me.

Lava_Croft

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly still amazed some of you guys are still having trouble with Bow users after the Lethal Arrow Fix.

I can't remember the last time I died to another bow user in a 1v1.....I think the only time i've died is when i'm getting zerged, and i've died to far more idiots running around in 20 man groups spamming impulse then archers.

Good thing this thread isn't about having trouble with bow users or dying to bow users. It's about the skewed risk vs reward that is currently part of using Snipe.

Jaerlach

Columba wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly still amazed some of you guys are still having trouble with Bow users after the Lethal Arrow Fix.

I can't remember the last time I died to another bow user in a 1v1.....I think the only time i've died is when i'm getting zerged, and i've died to far more idiots running around in 20 man groups spamming impulse then archers.

Agreed. While I die to lethal arrow periodically, it's often in the middle of a zerg action. More often it's fire ring spam etc. then again, i don't stand still begging enemies to gank me.

You also don't look like a priority target. Think about the targets you prioritize as a sniper. Those are the people having a bad time because when they are focus fired by a lot of snipes there is little they can do to react. The snipe isn't one lethal arrow. Its how it feels to be a soft tsrgrt and go from full with shields up to dead instantly, especially if there is any lag. Those people do not get to respond and the audio cue is usually lost in combat noise.

The risk to reward balance of sneaking edges and sniping especially as 3 or 4 together is just not good. The rewards are high and personal risk is minimal.

Columba

I target archers, lol. Secondly, if archers don't face risks, it's because their opponents aren't playing well.

JackDaniell

It's called wearing armor, if you don't like snipe you should try it.

Average non stealth snipe damage with 2300 armor = 450
From stealth = 630

Jaerlach

JackDaniell wrote: »

It's called wearing armor, if you don't like snipe you should try it.

Average non stealth snipe damage with 2300 armor = 450
From stealth = 630

I have always played heavy on my DK. Ran light yesterday for the first time. Getting 4x the ap per kill because I damage people is great, but holy crap the damages. The first time I actually died to a dw night blade I was so confused. Concealed weapon doesnt do that much damage!

DDuke

Regarding the "risk vs reward"...

How long do you expect a bow user, with no heals or dmg shields (that is not the problem), to last against the flag NPCs (or players for that matter) if you stand in their range?

Now compare that to a magicka build spamming dmg shields, veil, banner, you name it.

I'm sure you can see where the issue lies.

Also, when did players soloing resources become a problem? People were doing that two weeks after the game launched (both magicka & stamina builds).

There are much bigger problems with resources & keeps.
Ever sneaked around a resource or a keep, only to get detected and be unable to sneak for the next 10 minutes? Yeah...

Instead of crying for nerfs to a certain playstyle, (which already was nerfed in 1.5, due to stealth damage change) how about making other ones more viable?

"Rogue" or "assassin" type stealth builds could serve as an ideal counter to the archers, if they existed. Melee burst damage is non-existent outside the magicka based ambush->soul harvest combo, and even that one can be easily countered.

Columba

Lol soloing resources isn't a problem. I couldn't care less if people can do this. Just show up and kill them.

Lava_Croft

Name me any other skill that lets a VR7 player solo a resource without taking any damage, from over 40m distance.

Once again, it's not about dying, it's not about getting hit from stealth, it's not about being able to solo resources and it certainly is not about wanting to ruin the best bow skill there is. It's about the minimal risk involved for a high reward that is the current problem. I don't know the answer for this problem (yet) and all the blanket statements posted here do not really provide any insights either, other than that certain people just don't seem to get my point, which is fine by me.

DDuke

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Name me any other skill that lets a VR7 player solo a resource without taking any damage, from over 40m distance.

Once again, it's not about dying, it's not about getting hit from stealth, it's not about being able to solo resources and it certainly is not about wanting to ruin the best bow skill there is. It's about the minimal risk involved for a high reward that is the current problem. I don't know the answer for this problem (yet) and all the blanket statements posted here do not really provide any insights either, other than that certain people just don't seem to get my point, which is fine by me.

I'll just quote myself here:

DDuke wrote: »

Regarding the "risk vs reward"...

How long do you expect a bow user, with no heals or dmg shields (that is not the problem), to last against the flag NPCs (or players for that matter) if you stand in their range?

That is just the flag NPCs, which happen to be immobile.
The distance you have from the flag NPCs doesn't matter when you can walk in there & spam sap essence+veil to cap it 10x faster.

If you as a player are fighting a bow user, you can just run up to him (he can't run, dodge or block while he's spamming those snipes). If you have a gap closer, rest is extremely easy, and if you happen to be a sorc, it is ridiculously easy.

I'm failing to see where the "minimal risk" lies, if that bow user fails to burst you down with that first 1k~ burst from stealth, he's extremely dead once you catch up to him.

On the other hand, what does the "high reward" mean? Getting a kill? In that case, you might want to take a look at the magicka builds which tank & AoE down 20 people. I'd say that is fairly high reward, when compared to the one kill a stamina build might or might not get, and if it's only a couple people against those magicka builds, I'd say it's fairly low risk as well.

Also, in most other MMOs there's an aspect called kiting, which revolves around using your superior range against the opponent & avoiding dmg that way.

But I'm all for giving archers/ranged characters more risk & excitement, which is why I think melee stealth builds should become a thing.

To accomplish this, they'd need:

• Better ways of closing in on targets while stealthed
• Better burst damage
• Better ways of providing that burst damage (e.g. "Block Smasher - Deals X damage. Deals 300% damage to blocking targets, and prevents them from blocking for x seconds.)
• A way of getting out of there after killing the target