In theory all those "no camps" arguments make sense. But you have to wake up.

With FCs there were many different sieges all around the map at the same time. Without, now we have barely any sieges at all, mostly absolutely mindless 50 vs 50 zerging between keeps and some bridge fights.

Without FCs there is barely any tactics used now. Maybe taking the outpost between the keep you want to siege and the closest enemy keep. And of course organized groups trying to ninja some home keeps.
However, with FCs there were the same tactical options. The ability too move forces very quick made it more interesting tho. You could ninja keeps aswell, but moreover you could have multiple sieges at the same time easier spreading out the fight.
Without FCs I guess people see oneshooting riding people as tactics... Before you could just go and kill the FC.

Having no FCs just totally promotes big zergs. Instead having multiple sieges all around the map, you have now one siege because people are afraid of dieing and just run with the biggest group they can find. Finding small fights is very hard. Most of the non zerg-fights I have are 1v1 - 1v3 against some gankers trying to shoot me off my horse. I refuse to have with this tho. It just comes down to the question if I die on my horse or not. Getting oneshot is no fun and neither is it fun to kill those gankers afterwards as they just run away or die easily.

I dont mind if the person I just killed respawns at the keep again. I got the AP for killing him so I have my reward for killing him. Imo they should have kept the Camps as they were and just make people spawn with 100% Health 0% Magicka 0% Stamina. Then you couldnt just jump into the battle instantly but still wouldnt need to ride all the way again. Bloodporting isn't really a problem imo. People always ask for tactics. Bloodporting is a tactial strategy. Its maybe a bit unrealistic but hey, after all we play a game here, so who cares


PS: really tired atm so forgive me for repeating myself sometimes

Sanct16 wrote: »

In theory all those "no camps" arguments make sense. But you have to wake up.

With FCs there were many different sieges all around the map at the same time. Without, now we have barely any sieges at all, mostly absolutely mindless 50 vs 50 zerging between keeps and some bridge fights.

Without FCs there is barely any tactics used now. Maybe taking the outpost between the keep you want to siege and the closest enemy keep. And of course organized groups trying to ninja some home keeps.
However, with FCs there were the same tactical options. The ability too move forces very quick made it more interesting tho. You could ninja keeps aswell, but moreover you could have multiple sieges at the same time easier spreading out the fight.
Without FCs I guess people see oneshooting riding people as tactics... Before you could just go and kill the FC.

Having no FCs just totally promotes big zergs. Instead having multiple sieges all around the map, you have now one siege because people are afraid of dieing and just run with the biggest group they can find. Finding small fights is very hard. Most of the non zerg-fights I have are 1v1 - 1v3 against some gankers trying to shoot me off my horse. I refuse to have with this tho. It just comes down to the question if I die on my horse or not. Getting oneshot is no fun and neither is it fun to kill those gankers afterwards as they just run away or die easily.

I dont mind if the person I just killed respawns at the keep again. I got the AP for killing him so I have my reward for killing him. Imo they should have kept the Camps as they were and just make people spawn with 100% Health 0% Magicka 0% Stamina. Then you couldnt just jump into the battle instantly but still wouldnt need to ride all the way again. Bloodporting isn't really a problem imo. People always ask for tactics. Bloodporting is a tactial strategy. Its maybe a bit unrealistic but hey, after all we play a game here, so who cares


PS: really tired atm so forgive me for repeating myself sometimes

First of all, I have to disagree when you mention that without camps, all we see is mindless 50 vs 50 zergings between keeps.

I don't know if you remember when we had forward camps, but during keep assaults, attackers would drop camps on a ressource on the side they would siege, and defenders would drop camps inside allowing people to massively regroup in the same area and make it unplayable after 20-30mins of battle in the same area.

With the removal of camps, people have to think twice before going in the courtyard of a breached keep. If they die, they can't just spawn 20yards behind and come back, they actually have to resurrect far away, thereby reducing the latency in the area.

Second point, you say that before we used to be able to siege multiple keeps at the same time but supposedly it is not possible anymore. I've seen people organizing and assaulting multiple keeps at the same time alot of times. We do it quite often in EP, sometimes with 4-5 organized groups coordinating at the same time. I have also seen tonight for example, AD hitting Brk, Drake and Alessia all at the same time while controlling Sejanus.

Last point, I do care that the person I kill doesn't respawn right back inside next to the inner postern ready to attack me again. I prefer when we actually have to think twice before blindly going "yolo" on enemies because you can safely spawn back as soon as your death recap has finished loading. I compare this to the deathmatch mode in FPS games, I have never been a big fan of it.

Sanct16 wrote: »

In theory all those "no camps" arguments make sense. But you have to wake up.

With FCs there were many different sieges all around the map at the same time. Without, now we have barely any sieges at all, mostly absolutely mindless 50 vs 50 zerging between keeps and some bridge fights.

Without FCs there is barely any tactics used now.

This.

Yeah, what drives me a little crazy about this whole conversation is that people seem to refuse to acknowledge what is *actually happening* in the game vs. what they thought/hoped would happen.

I don't think there were many people here who said "We love FCs". I think most of the thoughtful people said "If you change this one incredibly central mechanic without changing a bunch of other things, the results will not be what you expect"

Serious question then... assuming they don't put camps back in... what can we do to fix the damage that has been done?

Step 1 - better alignment of time to take keep to reaction time
Step 2 - ???
Step 3 - ???

Yeah, of course the downside is zzzz especially hitting an empty keep. A better solution might be to eliminate the keep flagging mechanic. So:

1. Add a destroyable thing inside each keep courtyard.
2. As long as a resource is held, and destroyable thing is intact, players can port to keep to defend.

In short, walls can come down fast, but not without reasonable warning and time for defenders to transit.

Basically every group PVP game I've ever seen lives or dies on balancing travel / graveyard / rez time mechanics. This isn't a peripheral issue, it's essential because of the need to keep people in the action for the game to be fun, while still allowing successful kills to push an advantage (e.g. because of some delay getting back into the fight)

Solution to FC ultimately must boil down to finding new ways to re-balance these dynamics.

Love not having camps now and how it's improved the game, but I'll admit.

When my enemy drops a FC, I take great delight in torching it.
When my faction drops a FC, It's like an unexpected suprize.

Also on a side note, isn't nice now that zone chat isn't full of PLEASE REPLACE THE CAMP IF YOU ARE THE LAST ONE TO USE IT!

I haven't seen one decent siege assault/defence since camps are gone, It's either a pretty much empty keep, or a ridiculous ammount of people inside. There's just no balance to the fights, Before even if numbers was a little off it was back and forth with a top of action with something for all the solo/gank/bomb/zergs to do.

I can hold my own in any situational fight, I just find it boring as hell like this.

I didnt hear anyone before camps was removed saying 'oh camps are stupid get rid of them' the only complaints i heard was about troll camps. I'd prefer the troll camps over no camp.

And i gotta say, I feel sorry as hell for these new players who are the future of the game to ride back to a fight on a speed 30 horse and get wrecked by some lethal arrow spam.

Also blood porting was awesome, I spent pretty much all night seeing the same 2 keeps, Same as the last 3 nights.

If i wanted some kinda harsh punishment for dieing, I would play Darkfall again, If i wanted some meaningless combat between 2 points i would play WoW BG's. I kept playing this game for the action packed 24 hours a day PvP with sieges.

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Pvp population has dropped.
Please bring back our beloved FC.

It has definitely dropped in certain time zones but North American prime time still seems to be active. I had Monday off so I was leveling an alt up during what would have been Sunday night for North America and all three alliances were on Thornblade were locked.

And while the drop in population during prime time for me means I don't quite get to play how I'd like to, I don't think the removal of FCs have been a bad thing. I still don't like the way that Zenimax decided to remove them though.

purgation wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

I like the franticness of the map and the overall change to strategy (even if i find it hilarious some members of AD still dont get it). It has made Cyrodiil much more dangerous to travel in, solo players running around the place everywhere, and it just feels more alive.

I find virtually none of the above statements to be true. The only place the map is frantic is in the zerg zones between factions. Solo players are not running anywhere they were not before... (in fact, the areas deep in enemy territory are far more dead, because if you wipe enemy its a loooooong walk back)

I guess people experience what they want to believe.

You are just flat out wrong. As someone that avoided siege warfare and explored the "no man's land" between keeps I can say unequivocally there is far more action in places* rarely if ever visited. I tend to solo pvp and I now witness small group skirmishing in the most random places. Some of the most entertaining is when witnessing hunting parties depart from a keep to find a gank group that hit some of their faction members. These guys were organized and hunting. In the past you'd just see someone pop a tent in the area, a zerg would appear, wipe the group and move on. Now these skirmishes are much more blanced. Take time to develop and usually the best organized and tactical groups prevail. Just not the case previously. It was all about the spawn pwn.

Sad to see camps making a return. Honestly hope it's a fail and they still end up being removed.

*replaced "People" with "places." I have no idea how that happened but it made the sentence make almost no sense. Sorry.

lol at camping for kills....oh the irony.

If you flag 3 keeps with no camps, There will be minimal defenders, This does not promote PvP.

We've even stopped doin the tactics we did before when we had camps because it's boring now, PvDoor is a horrible feeling.

Botl escape, batswarm, kill 5 people, die, res at forward camp, rinse and repeat. This is your action packed fun.