Update 6 - the last nail in the coffin for sorcerer DPS/Healer in PVE

Mettaricana · November 2014

part of me is disappointed in the sorc skill lines but part of me doesn't care since sooner or later spell crafting where we can make our direct damage or DoT

Gyudan · November 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

For a good example of how sorcerers work, watch the "Let's play" segment of ESO Live#5, the camera is filming a VR14 sorcerer inside Blackheart Haven.

You CANNOT use this as an argument. I watched the "Let's Play." I have to be quite honest- the employee who played the Sorcerer was absolutely terrible. Just looking at his skill bars, what abilities he used, and how he played it was quite apparent that he was, quite frankly, a "noob" sorcerer. This is not an overstatement, he was a very, very bad representation of what a sorcerer can do. After watching this, I realized that one of the person's responsible for making changes to the game I play is a very, very bad player. This scares the crap out of me, and it should you too.

I didn't say it was a perfect example, but at least he's using the regular sorcerer skill rotation.

kkravaritieb17_ESO · November 2014

For proof that templars are not even needed for healing a raid and sorcerers almost unnecessary ( dont flame me about the comment just stating the obvious facts) check the current records for AA and Hel Ra on EU server.

P.S. We have 2 sorcs. 1 is the raidleader and the 2nd is the negater.

Sorcs and templars need some love when it comes to dps in PvE.

Uber_Lord · November 2014

So a sneaky stamina NB wears medium armor. Sneak attack damage is nerfed now. Ambush and concealed weapon will no longer crit from weapon damage. Maybe all NB class skills should use stamina then? I don't even know.
The best solution would be to remove classes alltogether.
This one hopes spellcrafting will replace classes and allow us to play like in Skyrim and previous TES games.

xaraan · November 2014

A great fix for this is to just change the way Crit Strike works -- instead of giving XX amount of weapon damage, have it increase your power (of both) by 35% or whatever.

LordEcks · November 2014

If they change Surge I will be very upset. My Sorc is a stamina based Crit Surge build and losing Crit Surge totally destroys the build. I wouldnt mind if they made it increase both WP and SP, but switching it to SP only would suck.

Samadhi · November 2014

My favourite thing about Power Surge is that it scales in effect with Magicka and Spell Damage, so it is possible for me to overcharge my Spell Damage for Class skills while still having excellent Weapon Damage for Weapon skills.
Makes for interesting hybrid options.

This change seems like it may hinder that.

Not looking too forward to it, but will wait and see how it is actually implemented.

Louis · November 2014

i love how youve taken your time to make some of us laugh let alone compare ESO to Plants vs. Zombies

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

I'm a VR 12 Petty Crafty PVE Sorcerer and I love it!

Paralyse · November 2014

I remember when my Sorc had some of the best DPS, now she's some of the worst. Do not like.

Sleep · November 2014

I think they should lower players' basic spell damage and give staves some spell damage. Also lower staves' weapon damage as well.

astro74 · November 2014

Play how you want but now we kill all builds that are not classic.. if you use a stick you should wear a pyamas.. If you wanna play with sharp objects reroll...

PBpsy · November 2014

astro74 wrote: »

Play how you want but now we kill all builds that are not classic.. if you use a stick you should wear a pyamas.. If you wanna play with sharp objects reroll...

Actually it has been the exact opposite since 1.4. Use glitchy stamina builds or gtfo.
-Nerf Spell power caps -check

-Nerf Spell penetration from LA -check

-Want to have decent spell crit ? And by decent we mean 20% less than what you can get with Weapon crit. Get a damn spinning ball around your head and lose 2 skill slots at all time.
- Want decent passive magicka management? Use a crap skill that can get you easily killed or some skill that lowers your damage.
-
-Want to have decent dps with decent utility or heals? FU we nerf Resto then nerf the nerf to the nerf to the resto with a buff that doesn't really make sense since you get less than what you did beffore.

-Want to get competitive DPS as a magikca build ? - Use crushing shock no matter the class, get Flawless Dawn breaker and stack weapon power.Lose a huge part of your ultimate generation and utility.Just for a little while we will ZOS this up in 1.6..

-Want to have a decent execute as a NB. Use weapon crit pots or use spell power pots or .....What in oblivion will they do with this skill is one of the great mysteries of 1.6. Either way one type of player will get ZOSed hard.

-Want to use Sap Essence or Crit Surge to get any actual benefit as a magicka build? Only until 1.6. Of course these skills don't even make sense since ZOS has already publicly gave up in promoting any type of hybrid builds a while back.

But ...but ...but ..Stamina isn't competitive ....derp ...
-Actually only your crappy stamina build since people were getting >1kdps with stamina since 1.3 and approaching 1.5K since 1.4. Of course playing stamina is still crappy since ESO has one of the crappiest melee mechanics and animations I have seen recently. Even if it did 3k dps I wouldn't want to use something as ridiculously looking as Flurry. What the hell is that? Milking goats sideways or something?

-Want to get a mute whines from stamina players everywhere? Nope you can't.

Murmeltier · November 2014

First, thank you for this Information, it looks very interesting.

It was very confusing that some Skills have cost Magicka but used a Stamina% Chance of whatever.

The Changes are the right Way, because they want to work a lot of on all Skills in the Future. It was to complicated, with these Changes they have a clear Structure and they can better work on all the Skills in the Future.

As a pure Templerhealer, i use mostly Classskills and they work over Spelldamage, but i need the Restorationstaff too, for Trials etc. So i need to split my Numbers into Weapondamage if i want to raise the Heals from the Restorationstaff. So for me as a Healer, these Changes are good and logical.

As for the Mages it is the same, now you can max out Magicka and Spelldamage and raise all the Classskills and Staffskills. No Weapondamage, to get a good Impulsedamage for example, is needed anymore more.

These are very good Changes. The only Problem is the Skill Surge, it raises Weapondamage and no Spelldamage.

That means, for sure, that some Hybrid Builds that use Weapondamage for Example and the Restorationstaff, now cant healing as good as before now. But for the long Way it is better to do that, you can create Hybridbuilds like in the Past but they dont have the best of both Worlds anymore.

As a Player i say yes to these Changes and as a Healer i say *Yay*! (My Mage is happy too

).

Magdalina · November 2014

yodased wrote: »

Ok guys this is putting the horse 40 feet in front of the cart and getting upset it isn't moving.

As it currently is, yes if they keep critical surge with weapon damage then you will not be able to get the same DPS you can get now, but that isn't to say that critical surge doesn't get changed to reflect the new systems.

They aren't THAT incompetent

Well, actually....

Yes. Yes they are, and they keep proving it time and again.

I'll be very delightfully surprised if they actually change Crit Surge to reflect the changes, because atm that's about the ONLY sorc class skill every(or at least 90%) sorc use for dps-ing/healing(and we already can't tank). If they don't change it, sorcs are gonna become like entirely useless as dps and lose their only advantage as a healer. At the same time, if they change it to pure spell dmg, that's gonna hurt the few sorcs that actually use melee weapons for dps'ing...not sure what they should do, but tbh not so eager to find out. I have zero faith left that they don't screw it all up again.

astro74 · November 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

astro74 wrote: »

Play how you want but now we kill all builds that are not classic.. if you use a stick you should wear a pyamas.. If you wanna play with sharp objects reroll...

Actually it has been the exact opposite since 1.4. Use glitchy stamina builds or gtfo.
-Nerf Spell power caps -check

-Nerf Spell penetration from LA -check

-Want to have decent spell crit ? And by decent we mean 20% less than what you can get with Weapon crit. Get a damn spinning ball around your head and lose 2 skill slots at all time.
- Want decent passive magicka management? Use a crap skill that can get you easily killed or some skill that lowers your damage.
-
-Want to have decent dps with decent utility or heals? FU we nerf Resto then nerf the nerf to the nerf to the resto with a buff that doesn't really make sense since you get less than what you did beffore.

-Want to get competitive DPS as a magikca build ? - Use crushing shock no matter the class, get Flawless Dawn breaker and stack weapon power.Lose a huge part of your ultimate generation and utility.Just for a little while we will ZOS this up in 1.6..

-Want to have a decent execute as a NB. Use weapon crit pots or use spell power pots or .....What in oblivion will they do with this skill is one of the great mysteries of 1.6. Either way one type of player will get ZOSed hard.

-Want to use Sap Essence or Crit Surge to get any actual benefit as a magicka build? Only until 1.6. Of course these skills don't even make sense since ZOS has already publicly gave up in promoting any type of hybrid builds a while back.

But ...but ...but ..Stamina isn't competitive ....derp ...
-Actually only your crappy stamina build since people were getting >1kdps with stamina since 1.3 and approaching 1.5K since 1.4. Of course playing stamina is still crappy since ESO has one of the crappiest melee mechanics and animations I have seen recently. Even if it did 3k dps I wouldn't want to use something as ridiculously looking as Flurry. What the hell is that? Milking goats sideways or something?

-Want to get a mute whines from stamina players everywhere? Nope you can't.

I didnt follow the entire conversation I was reacting to if they change crit surge to spell dmg instead of weapon dmg.. I thought the weapon dmg was pretty cool since it allowed for sorc to buff something that isnt usually a sorc skill... you could do a battlemage with 2h sword and use surge to give you some dmg boost..

Now if they change to spell dmg instead you are stuck with casting..

killedbyping · November 2014

Gyudan wrote: »

With update 6, destro staff and resto staff abilities will scale based on spell damage instead of weapon damage. While this change makes sense, it will heavily impact the way sorcerer dps and healers work.

Right now, most sorcerers rely on critical surge to increase their weapon damage and the effectiveness of their destro/resto staff abilities. I've been waiting for a buff on sorcerers for a while now and this switch to spell damage is yet another nerf. Yay! Thanks ZoS!

Critical Surge
This is the one advantage that sorcerers currently have: their staff abilities can be easily boosted by overcharging weapon damage.

Apart from staff skills, the only 2 class abilities that would benefit from investing in spell damage are:
- Crystal Fragments: only useful to cast when the 35% procs. Stun is now useless for most of the PVE content.
- Endless Fury/Mage's Wrath: an execute move, only useful on targets under 20% health.

All other abilities are quite useless. Mines have been nerfed, velocious curse is too slow, all cc abilities are useless on most of the PVE content (list of immune monsters increased with update 5). Who even uses pets in advanced PVE content?

A few facts
- Sorcerers are currently less effective than other classes at dealing damage (bested by DK/NB) and healing (bested by Templar/DK). Of course good sorcerers can beat an average DK, but the best DKs pull way more dps than the best sorcs and the same goes for average ones.
- Sorcerers have no direct damage abilities and no damage over time (DoT) abilities.
- Sorcerers have no abilities that can heal other players.

DPS discussion here

For a good example of how sorcerers work, watch the "Let's play" segment of ESO Live#5, the camera is filming a VR14 sorcerer inside Blackheart Haven.

DKs right now:

Sorcerers right now:

DKs after update 6:

Sorcerers after update 6:

Source: admin post

ZOS_JoeBlackburn wrote: »

Hey Guys,

Qhival's post is super informative, and hopefully we can help clear up a little more of the critical strike info for you. Currently critical strikes are based on the defense that an ability checks when it goes off.

So when you use an ability like Uppercut, it checks against the target's Armor when it does damage. This means it has a Critical Strike chance based off of your Weapon Critical stat.

If you are using an ability like Crystal Shards that checks against the target's Spell Resistance when it does damage, it will base its Critical Strike chance off of your Spell Critical stat.

For Update 6 we are making a huge effort to make sure that everything that costs Magicka scales in damage based off your Max Magicka and Spell Damage, and uses Spell Critical as its Critical Strike Chance. Similarly, all abilities that cost Stamina will scale in damage based off your Max Stamina and Weapon Damage, and use Weapon Critical as their Critical Strike Chance.

We know that currently it’s a little confusing to determine what stats modify your abilities when you put them on your bar, and we are working to make sure it will be very obvious in the future.

Questions for ZoS:
- What will you change for sorcerers to balance the switch to spell damage for staff scaling in update 6?
- Should I just grab two daggers or a 2-handed sword and switch to a weapon I never wanted my sorcerer to use? Is this the only way I can deal damage similar to the other classes?
- Will sorcerers ever get a skill healing party members?
- What is the point of getting a staff to legendary quality if weapon damage doesn't matter? Just the trait increase?

I love the game but this imbalance keeps getting worse.

You drunk ?

Tankqull · November 2014

its intresting.
the ui lead designer must be horrible (to be frankly he allready prooved it with the current ui) as it is easier to rework the way skills work redo the entire weapon spell balance than adding the information of what effects a skill and what not into the skill tool tips ...

TagaParti · November 2014

please make DKs fly, those are huge wings as you can see. please ZoS!

PBpsy · November 2014

TagaParti wrote: »

please make DKs fly, those are huge wings as you can see. please ZoS!

You are kind of right.
The only thing that actually sucks about DKs is that Draconic Power isn't a shape shifting skill line.

astro74 · November 2014

TagaParti wrote: »

please make DKs fly, those are huge wings as you can see. please ZoS!

I see DKs fly from hills to keep walls..

I think in first expansion they plan to turn DKs into fully hatched dragons with flight and a firebreath that will whipe out the entire server.

Demira · November 2014

astro74 wrote: »

Sir, i tried to verbally express the facto that sorc is underperforming but im starting to doubt that they can read.. How you illustrated with pictures is pure brilliant. Only thing is instead of typning sorcerer or dk under the pictures i would suggest taking an ingame screenshot of a sorcerer and a dk and use arrows to connect them with Your pics... Always try to make a post so easy to understand that even a dev can read it.

I have been stating all along since beta (Since beta folks and I got criticized for voicing my concerns then!) that Sorcerers are currently less effective than other classes at dealing damage. And I am so happy to see other Sorcerers are FINALLY voicing my concerns that I have been seeing all this time!

Thank you, all my brothers and sisters, Sorcerers!

Also want to state that I do not want to use swords, mauls, daggers, bows etc on my Sorcerer!

Cherryblossom · November 2014

Hoodster92_ESO wrote: »

Expect what they say, and certain class abilities to completely change up before they release 1.6.

There are many things that would need to change to properly do what they want to do correctly, best thing people can do is get into the PTS and test things before they release anything.

That works, cos they listened to all the feedback on the last update!!!!

bertenburnyb16_ESO · November 2014

so what will be the use of weapon damage on staves...
I find it a dumb change, weapon abilities should scale of that weapons damage and your skills scale of spellpower, but well thats just me

TehMagnus · November 2014

Good for DKs

Attorneyatlawl · November 2014

astro74 wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

please make DKs fly, those are huge wings as you can see. please ZoS!

I see DKs fly from hills to keep walls..

I think in first expansion they plan to turn DKs into fully hatched dragons with flight and a firebreath that will whipe out the entire server.

Haha

.

Everyone, please focus on DK's... that's right... keep your eyes off the Templars in Cyrodiil...........

Magdalina · November 2014

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

so what will be the use of weapon damage on staves...
I find it a dumb change, weapon abilities should scale of that weapons damage and your skills scale of spellpower, but well thats just me

By that logic, however, weapons should also scale off weapon crit;)

Staves kinda do stand aside - they restore mag on heavy attack, not stam, and they use spellcrit. And most people using them will be pumping points into spellpower anyway because they're magicka builds and they'll be using class skills. So overall it's not such a bad change...except poor sorc. I really, really hope they have enough brains to properly tweak Crit Surge. Maybe make one morph buff wep power, the other spellpower or something.

GreyBrow · November 2014

The reading comprehension of most of the people posting here is sooooo low.

The issue is that sorcs are already LAST out of tank/dps/heals....

Anything a sorc can do, another class can do it better. This isn't debatable at this point in the game. And i've played a sorc since beta.

Rolled a DK 2 months ago and i've never been happier, but I still love my main sorc. They really need to redo the entire Fing class. Just get rid of the entire daedric tree, replace it with support abilities (heals/buffs), make lightning form a toggle that increases crit chance (same as flames of oblivion), and fing PLEASE make major changes to dark magic.

Dark deal is worthless, mines are COMPLETELY useless, and the two cc abilities don't work on any mobs that you would actually need a cc for. Crystal shards is extremely low dps, and negate is a JOKE in PvE. Give negate a straight 25% damage buff while standing in it, just like dk's banner

GreyBrow · November 2014

PBpsy wrote: »

astro74 wrote: »

Play how you want but now we kill all builds that are not classic.. if you use a stick you should wear a pyamas.. If you wanna play with sharp objects reroll...

Actually it has been the exact opposite since 1.4. Use glitchy stamina builds or gtfo.
-Nerf Spell power caps -check

-Nerf Spell penetration from LA -check

-Want to have decent spell crit ? And by decent we mean 20% less than what you can get with Weapon crit. Get a damn spinning ball around your head and lose 2 skill slots at all time.
- Want decent passive magicka management? Use a crap skill that can get you easily killed or some skill that lowers your damage.
-
-Want to have decent dps with decent utility or heals? FU we nerf Resto then nerf the nerf to the nerf to the resto with a buff that doesn't really make sense since you get less than what you did beffore.

-Want to get competitive DPS as a magikca build ? - Use crushing shock no matter the class, get Flawless Dawn breaker and stack weapon power.Lose a huge part of your ultimate generation and utility.Just for a little while we will ZOS this up in 1.6..

-Want to have a decent execute as a NB. Use weapon crit pots or use spell power pots or .....What in oblivion will they do with this skill is one of the great mysteries of 1.6. Either way one type of player will get ZOSed hard.

-Want to use Sap Essence or Crit Surge to get any actual benefit as a magicka build? Only until 1.6. Of course these skills don't even make sense since ZOS has already publicly gave up in promoting any type of hybrid builds a while back.

But ...but ...but ..Stamina isn't competitive ....derp ...
-Actually only your crappy stamina build since people were getting >1kdps with stamina since 1.3 and approaching 1.5K since 1.4. Of course playing stamina is still crappy since ESO has one of the crappiest melee mechanics and animations I have seen recently. Even if it did 3k dps I wouldn't want to use something as ridiculously looking as Flurry. What the hell is that? Milking goats sideways or something?

-Want to get a mute whines from stamina players everywhere? Nope you can't.

I love you.

GreyBrow · November 2014

Magdalina wrote: »

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

so what will be the use of weapon damage on staves...
I find it a dumb change, weapon abilities should scale of that weapons damage and your skills scale of spellpower, but well thats just me

By that logic, however, weapons should also scale off weapon crit;)

Staves kinda do stand aside - they restore mag on heavy attack, not stam, and they use spellcrit. And most people using them will be pumping points into spellpower anyway because they're magicka builds and they'll be using class skills. So overall it's not such a bad change...except poor sorc. I really, really hope they have enough brains to properly tweak Crit Surge. Maybe make one morph buff wep power, the other spellpower or something.

Even If they change it to buff spell power, sorcs will still be SOL, because our PvE DPS won't change if they change destro to spell power.

PvP however... I wouldn't mind flinging 2k non crit crystal shards around.

They will never do that. It will stay weapon damage because of all the crybaby pvpers who are ruining 90% of the game for everyone else