New Group and Solo Instance Scaling NEEDS to be OPTIONAL!

Divinius · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

tinythinker wrote: »

I don't see why it's one player's business why another player might want to over-level. If someone just wants a completion and a skill point, why does that matter? If someone has less skill than another player, who cares? If someone has reasons for wanting to solo grouped instances (difficulty finding groups at level because of issues like being on briefly at odd times, consistently bad luck with unreliable pick-up groups, not wanting to wait to do questing to stay "at level" for the instance, etc), what difference does it make?

This is the primary reason for my annoyance toward most of the people that would vote against making this new level-scaling an optional feature.

I totally understand why people get upset when some players cry about something being too hard and ask for a "nerf" to some content. If a game's devs nerf something, it affects everyone and takes away some challenge from all the players, not just the ones that were struggling. This is indeed unfair, and has the effect of annoying some players to appease others.

But that's not what this issue is about at all. No one is asking for a nerf to anything. ZOS is implementing a change that (if left with no option) will, unarguably, make things harder, by removing the ability overlevel an instance (sacrificing loot and exp for ease of completion).

But if they were to implement this change, and it was made optional, it would in absolutely no way affect other players' ability to enjoy the new feature. Yes, the new level scaling is good! It's a great feature! But just don't make it mandatory. The players that want to use the new feature will lose nothing if it is made optional, but the game itself stands to lose funding (due to canceled subscriptions from frustrated player) if it is NOT made optional.

So far, I've not seen any viable or valid argument against making this new feature optional from anyone. All I've seen are a bunch of players taking the typical attitude of "L2P, or GTFO my ESO!" And that is a real shame.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2014

tinythinker wrote: »

How to Enjoy the Game?

Regardless of how scaling is implemented or eventually adjusted (I'm not arguing for or against it here), threads like this raise questions about how people think the game should be played. In this case, whether there is a right or acceptable way to enjoy the game.

@tinythinker , that is the very reason people want this, but want it as an option. With the current proposal, the lowest character in the group, and the only character in the solo, will never be able to overlevel the content.

It will lead to necessity of overleveled groups (the other three individuals) and careful choice of leader and the other individuals being the primary means of passing a challenge. That is not conducive to achievement for the individuals that have difficulty with a particular mechanic now, it will only lessen it or make it even worse.

driosketch wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL‌ at least twice after launch and once more during beta from what I remember. I think there was one more that affected the health orbs recently. They're like giant slow moving opaque balls now.

@driosketch‌ , yeah, I remember them mentioning slowing down the feasts.

I think next nerf you walk into the instance, she transforms, and then immediately falls over dead.

tinythinker · October 2014

Divinius wrote: »

So far, I've not seen any viable or valid argument against making this new feature optional from anyone. All I've seen are a bunch of players taking the typical attitude of "L2P, or GTFO my ESO!" And that is a real shame.

I can think of a couple reasons beyond that, though whether people feel they are good or not is a different matter.

One was already mentioned -- that it might be confusing when trying to use something like the grouping tool. For solo content a toggle for scaling wouldn't have this issue, but for grouped content it could lead to confusion or conflict among players as well as within the code.

The other is the change to the Undaunted Guild. One of the stated reasons from ZOS for introducing scaling is to allow people to "go back and revisit their favorite dungeons". While some players have suggested this is being done to prepare for the Championship System (a reasonable speculation), the PTS patch notes follow in the same sentence introducing scaling by referring to the new Undaunted Pledges. I am wondering if ZOS was concerned about people completing the "easier" pledges with veteran characters and selling the loot.

AlexDougherty · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

tinythinker wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

So far, I've not seen any viable or valid argument against making this new feature optional from anyone. All I've seen are a bunch of players taking the typical attitude of "L2P, or GTFO my ESO!" And that is a real shame.

I can think of a couple reasons beyond that, though whether people feel they are good or not is a different matter.

One was already mentioned -- that it might be confusing when trying to use something like the grouping tool. For solo content a toggle for scaling wouldn't have this issue, but for grouped content it could lead to confusion or conflict among players as well as within the code.

The other is the change to the Undaunted Guild. One of the stated reasons from ZOS for introducing scaling is to allow people to "go back and revisit their favorite dungeons". While some players have suggested this is being done to prepare for the Championship System (a reasonable speculation), the PTS patch notes follow in the same sentence introducing scaling by referring to the new Undaunted Pledges. I am wondering if ZOS was concerned about people completing the "easier" pledges with veteran characters and selling the loot.

Again nothing there against making it optional.

As for group content, it's very simple, you make it so the dungeon is in two phases, one phase for people who don't want it scaling, one phase for those who do want it scaling. If a group enters with people wanting both, well they will have to make their minds up, or they will be a different phase to their group and last about 3 seconds.

Divinius · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

tinythinker wrote: »

... it might be confusing when trying to use something like the grouping tool. For solo content a toggle for scaling wouldn't have this issue, but for grouped content it could lead to confusion or conflict among players as well as within the code.

Admittedly, that may be the one and only even remotely viable gripe. But as you say, it only applies to the group instances, and the solo instances seem to be the far bigger concern for the lack of the options. Perhaps the group instances are always scaled unless you try to enter them solo, and then you can choose? That would be fair enough compromise to me, since there would still be the work-around of finding a low-level player to be "group leader" and force a group instance to remain un-scaled.

tinythinker wrote: »

The other is the change to the Undaunted Guild. One of the stated reasons from ZOS for introducing scaling is to allow people to "go back and revisit their favorite dungeons". While some players have suggested this is being done to prepare for the Championship System (a reasonable speculation), the PTS patch notes follow in the same sentence introducing scaling by referring to the new Undaunted Pledges. I am wondering if ZOS was concerned about people completing the "easier" pledges with veteran characters and selling the loot.

All they would need to do here is force the pledges to only work in the level-scaled instances.

tinythinker · October 2014

Divinius wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

quote="tinythinker;1345087"]The other is the change to the Undaunted Guild. One of the stated reasons from ZOS for introducing scaling is to allow people to "go back and revisit their favorite dungeons". While some players have suggested this is being done to prepare for the Championship System (a reasonable speculation), the PTS patch notes follow in the same sentence introducing scaling by referring to the new Undaunted Pledges. I am wondering if ZOS was concerned about people completing the "easier" pledges with veteran characters and selling the loot.

All they would need to do here is force the pledges to only work in the level-scaled instances.

Sure. But again given what's happened in the past I can see that functionality being buggy. Again, I was trying to think of reasons for scaling that didn't involve criticizing the motives of those who want it to be optional, not making a case against scaling or an option to toggle scaling.

Nestor · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

tinythinker wrote: »

One was already mentioned -- that it might be confusing when trying to use something like the grouping tool. For solo content a toggle for scaling wouldn't have this issue, but for grouped content it could lead to confusion or conflict among players as well as within the code.

Just pointing out that your reason for not having an option is something that people hardly ever use to begin with.

tinythinker · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

One was already mentioned -- that it might be confusing when trying to use something like the grouping tool. For solo content a toggle for scaling wouldn't have this issue, but for grouped content it could lead to confusion or conflict among players as well as within the code.

Just pointing out that your reason for not having an option is something that people hardly ever use to begin with.

Update 5 has some significant changes to the grouping tool, so hopefully it will be more useful going forward. I've used it, but like anything it works best during the busiest times for a given day.

bugmom · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Differently abled person here. I am officially disabled and agree that forcing leveling on the solo dungeons is a bad idea. I understand that the game will not accommodate me for PvP and have reconciled myself to the fact that I probably will never be able to play those parts of the game. But for PvE, there are some of the bosses in the MQ especially that require some skills that my hands/fingers just cannot do. The only way I got through these was to out-level them. I love this game and want to continue playing. I am not asking that ZOS nerd the whole game to accommodate me but to build in some flexibility for those of us who need it.m

Divinius · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

bugmom wrote: »

Differently abled person here. I am officially disabled and agree that forcing leveling on the solo dungeons is a bad idea. I understand that the game will not accommodate me for PvP and have reconciled myself to the fact that I probably will never be able to play those parts of the game. But for PvE, there are some of the bosses in the MQ especially that require some skills that my hands/fingers just cannot do. The only way I got through these was to out-level them. I love this game and want to continue playing. I am not asking that ZOS nerf the whole game to accommodate me but to build in some flexibility for those of us who need it.

Thank you for commenting.

I'd also like to point out something regarding your sentence that I bolded: You aren't even asking them to "build-in" some flexibility. You (and I, and others like us) are simply asking for them to not take away the flexibility that we have had all along. That's an important clarification to make to those people that continue to claim we are asking ZOS to "nerf" something.

Nestor · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Yes, making the Scaling Option changes nothing from the way that the game is now. It is not a Nerf.

Instead, this change takes the game away from some paying customers.

Dahveed · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I didn't even know about this TBH, but I think it will be a great addition. This is something I was actually just thinking about yesterday as I left one of the first main zones. I left a whole lot of content behind because it was getting too easy as I outleveled it.

I would love it if they could add this feature to a limited extent even in non-instanced zones. For example, if I am questing in an old, lower-level zone just to clean up unfinished quests, it would get boring to just faceroll everything because I outlevel it by 10. Once in a while it would be nice if they threw in an obstacle worthy of a higher level character... perhaps some of the phased final bosses could be scaled?

Might be hard to implement. But by and large I agree it's a good idea but should be optional.

tinythinker · October 2014

Dahveed wrote: »

I didn't even know about this TBH, but I think it will be a great addition. This is something I was actually just thinking about yesterday as I left one of the first main zones. I left a whole lot of content behind because it was getting too easy as I outleveled it.

I would love it if they could add this feature to a limited extent even in non-instanced zones. For example, if I am questing in an old, lower-level zone just to clean up unfinished quests, it would get boring to just faceroll everything because I outlevel it by 10. Once in a while it would be nice if they threw in an obstacle worthy of a higher level character... perhaps some of the phased final bosses could be scaled?

Might be hard to implement. But by and large I agree it's a good idea but should be optional.

It's harder for zone content when you are going back to earlier stages because of the people for whom, say, a VR10 encounter would be instant death. And if you make a "new" instance of older content once you graduate from a zone, you ca't go back to help other people. Not sure how many people want to go back for instanced, harder versions of the same boss battles to old questlines.

The broader notion of having higher level content in prior zones is an interesting idea, though.

Something I had pondered suggesting previously was adding in new solo instances within old zones from your home alliance that only unlock for veteran (level 50) players. These could continue/build on older stories or start a new one, like the veteran versions of group dungeons do, possibly bringing back old characters. Maybe 1 to 3 larger dungeon sized instances for each of the five major zones. And with scaling, they could fit whatever level you are currently at.

phreatophile · October 2014

I couldn't find a choice I could really get behind so I didn't vote.

As I understand it, the instance scales to the group leader. So there is a built in way to instance the dungeon to a higher or lower level than yourself is you so desire.

My question: right now, you get a skill point for finnishing the dungeon normally and another for veteran completion (correct me if I'm wrong) What happens if you didn't do any dungeons until you hit VR? Have you forfeited 16 skill points?

Guppet · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

I'm changing to make it optional, preferably with a difficulty slider. If I can make stuff harder for myself and be appropriately rewarded, they can give an option to make it easier, with rewards appropriate to its difficulty.

AlnilamE · October 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

I couldn't find a choice I could really get behind so I didn't vote.

As I understand it, the instance scales to the group leader. So there is a built in way to instance the dungeon to a higher or lower level than yourself is you so desire.

My question: right now, you get a skill point for finnishing the dungeon normally and another for veteran completion (correct me if I'm wrong) What happens if you didn't do any dungeons until you hit VR? Have you forfeited 16 skill points?

As for your first point, that applies to group dungeons, but since you are the only player in the Solo quests, that will always scale to your level.

Your second point: I think you can set the dungeon level from "normal" to "vet" and that will give you one story or the other, and you will still get your skill points.

GnatB · October 2014

I do not like the new level scaling at all, and feel that instances should not even have an option to scale them to your level.

Not sure what category it fits in, but I think having an option or something popup is "jolting".

For group instances, I'm fine with it always scaling to the level of the leader.

For solo instances, I'd argue:

That the level of the instance should be "locked in" when:
a. You first enter the instance
-or-
b. The associated quest first becomes available to you.

I'd prefer "b" as it'd be much more intuitive. If you routinely have to wait 'till you're 3 levels over or somesuch, you don't have to pop into the dungeon to lock it in before coming back 3 levels later. You just play as normal until your 3 levels above the level of the quest. It doesn't take any thinking about it.

My understanding is the whole point of the solo instance scaling is for the DB/TG etc. questlines. If they add them requiring lvl 50 characters to do, that'll feel sort of awkward, while if they add them as additional activities while doing the main line, that leaves people that have already hit 50 blowing through them. Either option solves that issue.

(P.S. I don't believe I have ever expected/used items gotten from solo instances in any game I've played, ('course, I almost always use crafted stuff), so the carrot of having the rewards level up with me is pretty much worthless.)

Nestor · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

GnatB wrote: »

Not sure what category it fits in, but I think having an option or something popup is "jolting".

Your right, it would be jolting. However this does not need to be done for each dungeon, this can be set as a character global, much like the Veteran or Normal Dungeon Setting is now in the Group Window. Just add a third option that says "Don't Scale" or the inverse, "Scale Solo". Then you set it once, and play the game until you set it again.

DigitalHype · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

This change will be frustrating for existing players, who have a particular play style that favors out-leveling, and returning later. This tactic is common for group dungeons.

It can be difficult for player to find a capable group of completing a group dungeon, at its zone level. Especially if one is faced with real life time constraints. By the time you get a full (semi-balanced) PUG together, there is an almost inevitable problem (someone disco / afk / no responding, etc.

I commonly return to a zone, after out-leveling significantly, and complete the group dungeons in small 2 (or 3) person groups. Being able to do this provides the flexibility needed to complete these, get the achievement, skyshards, lore-books, etc.

The ability to out-level and complete the dungeon, with reduced number of group members, is compensating for the terribly lacking LFG system the game provides.

GnatB · October 2014

I do not like the new level scaling at all, and feel that instances should not even have an option to scale them to your level.

Nestor wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Not sure what category it fits in, but I think having an option or something popup is "jolting".

Your right, it would be jolting. However this does not need to be done for each dungeon, this can be set as a character global, much like the Veteran or Normal Dungeon Setting is now in the Group Window.

I think you'd be surprised by the number of people that never look at the options. Unless it defaults to don't scale, it needs to be more... natural.

Hamfast · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I found the answer to this poll very easy...

Choice is always better.

Still_Mind · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

All solo content is already very easy. There should be at least *some* difficulty bar (which scaling will allow to be kept) to encourage the player to think a little on improving their strategy, or setup.

Overlevelling quests is a bad crutch.

Nestor · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

GnatB wrote: »

I think you'd be surprised by the number of people that never look at the options. Unless it defaults to don't scale, it needs to be more... natural.

Yes, but when the first mob picks them up by the scruff of the neck and throws them out the door, they will figure it out.

Or, make the current normal the default, then give they can choose the option to make it scaled.

Divinius · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I don't understand the major concern over the difficulty of choosing whether you want the scaled version or not. Once you hit Vet rank, you already have a choice of whether to do the Veteran version of an instance, or the regular version (for the ones that have Vet versions).

While I haven't played around with it much, I recall that you just have to choose the "Dungeon Mode" you want in the group window. Why couldn't the "scaled or not" option just be in there with the "Vet or regular" option?

The mechanic for choosing is already in the game! No "jolting" choice pop-ups are necessary at all.

Cuyler · October 2014

I do not like the new level scaling at all, and feel that instances should not even have an option to scale them to your level.

Sooo I can't read today...I really should have voted for the Optional choice as that is what I wanted but alas...

Diablo III had it right in what they called "monster power" in which the player could choose the difficulty of Npcs on a scale of 1-10. This way if you wanted more of a challenge but didn't want to fight exactly at your level you could choose to do that.

It also allowed one to slowly scale up difficulty to feel the change in each level of play.

Personally I believe being forced to fight exactly at your level all of the time is completely dumbfounding...

I myself sometimes enjoy an easier time clearing a lower dungeon just to feel OP (even if i'm not)...and on the other hand I enjoy fighting monsters above my level for the challenge.

Difficulty should be place on a sliding scale the player can adjust to their liking with xp and loot scaling appropriately.

Valen_Byte · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Ashtaris wrote: »

I do believe that ZOS should make Dungeon Scaling an option and for the exact same reasons you pointed out. I know my wife was very close to quiting the game during the Lyris Doppelganger phase of the main storyline. It was so frustrating for her that it actually brought her to tears. The only reason she didn't quit is because I encouraged her to keep trying, and then she overleveled enough to finally be able to get through that part of the game. If she wasn't able to overlevel the quest, I would now be playing the game solo. Not everyone comes from a WoW game playing background and it takes time to gather the experience and understand the builds to be able to get through some of the tougher parts of the game. Give the casual players a chance.

My wife was the exact same way. The only difference was that is was at Molag. This is her first MMO and she was playing with a Templar. It took her about two weeks of trying. She was in tears and about to give up. If that had happened I would have also quit. Scaling needs and I mean NEEDS to be optional for the casual gamer. Period.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2014

phreatophile wrote: »

I couldn't find a choice I could really get behind so I didn't vote.

As I understand it, the instance scales to the group leader. So there is a built in way to instance the dungeon to a higher or lower level than yourself is you so desire.

My question: right now, you get a skill point for finnishing the dungeon normally and another for veteran completion (correct me if I'm wrong) What happens if you didn't do any dungeons until you hit VR? Have you forfeited 16 skill points?

@phreatophile‌ , if this is you, go now, before 1.5 hits.

Complete the dungeon / event invite that goes with it, you get the skillpoint.

If you skipped them, you won't get XP's/VP's for the mobs or bosses, and you likely won't get drops, but 16 skillpoints is nothing to scoff at.

You can probably solo the first 3 tiers, after that, you'll want to bring a friend or two, even at Vet. (Blackshade in particular has a fairly nasty mechanic that will temporarily make your numbers less numerous...) And don't think that you can't die because you're beefier than they are, lotta mobs, bosses that still hit hard, and much to occupy you.

If you're not of a particular Alliance, there will be one that you probably won't get the skillpoint for because it doesn't trigger right. They won't let me tell you how to get it to trigger right, because they consider it a potential exploit.

(How to trigger a quest that's supposed to already trigger is an exploit, they won't answer.)

But do them, do them now, because when scaling hits, soloing them is over.

The problem with the first thing you mention comes into play if the leader is a greater than 5 Vet level spread between someone. They are also changing it so if you do enough damage/(presumably heals also). you won't get XP's, you probably won't get kill credit, and you may not get finish credit without the other two.

It will lead to massive overleveling to accomodate lower levels or tremendous difficulty if scaled much higher.

The Vet Group Dungeons are no joke the way they are now.

Nestor wrote: »

Yes, but when the first mob picks them up by the scruff of the neck and throws them out the door, they will figure it out.

Or, make the current normal the default, then give they can choose the option to make it scaled.

@Nestor , to summarize and emphasize:

PTS 'Normal Wayrest Sewers' (Normally a L30 Group Dungeon)

Scaled to VR7...

Solo entry to check for ugly factor.

2 croc's, 5 skeevers, much death (mine.)

Gix · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

Divinius wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

The more "options" you provide, the more complicated you make it for everyone... for no other reasons than just have it tailored to a very specific group.

So... screw anyone that up until now has found a way to enjoy the game, because you don't want to have to think for an extra half-a-second on what you need to click when entering an instance. Gotcha.

And pretty much everything else in your comment was a list of very good ideas that I actually agree with, but that unfortunately have nothing at all to do with the system they are currently scheduled to implement.

You fail to remember that Zenimax has stated that they're adjusting difficulty dynamically so that when content gets too hard for your group, it'll get progressively easier. It kind of makes sense, then, to scale the dungeon on initial spawn.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Gix , there are a few issues with this. First, there are limits to scaling down. The other aspect that goes along with this and what you are asking for involved contribution.

They're changing it so if you are more than 5 Vet levels below the next guy, you have to contribute so much damage or you get no XP's/Loot. So you're not automatically going to be able to help your scaled down friends as much as you think.

What you are referring to is another version of Battle Leveling. That's the other extreme, and would cause little reason to approach anything at level.

No, what I'm referring to is Final Fantasy 14's level scaling. It's quite possibly the only MMO in the market that manages to do scaling properly and it's an automated and very simple system.

I know that I won't be able to help my low level friends. That's why I believe the current iteration of their solution is still faulty. The right answer is to do what actually works and promotes the idea of playing with friends regardless of their level.

Also, might I point out that stating that "there's a limit to scaling down" is not an argument without an actual description of said limit.

Nestor · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Nestor , to summarize and emphasize:

PTS 'Normal Wayrest Sewers' (Normally a L30 Group Dungeon)

Scaled to VR7...

Solo entry to check for ugly factor.

2 croc's, 5 skeevers, much death (mine.)

And how is that fun? The trash mobs are supposed to be the easy part. Bosses I can understand being the challenge.

Divinius · October 2014

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Since update 5 is apparently going live on Monday, whatever is going to happen with this feature has likely already been decided. Maybe ZOS was smart and already made the scaling optional, but I highly doubt it. Guess I'll find out on Monday if I'll be cancelling both of our 6-month subs just before they renew...