New Group and Solo Instance Scaling NEEDS to be OPTIONAL!

Divinius

As most of you already know, Update 5 will introduce a new level scaling feature to the instanced dungeons -- both the group ones (The Banished Cells, Spindleclutch, Fungal Grotto, etc.) and the solo ones (used for the Main quest and Fighter's/Mages Guild missions) -- where the enemies and loot in the instance will now scale up to the level of the player. There have been several threads on this subject already, and I've posted my opinion in a few of them. But I didn't see a poll yet, so I thought I'd create one. (I would have put this in the PTS forum, but they don't allow polls there.)

First, let me say that I actually think the instance level scaling is a nice addition. I will actually enjoy not having to worry about accidentally overleveling an instance and then not being able to find a group, or having my solo instances be a faceroll where I get no loot.

But forcing this scaling on players seems like a very bad decision to me. There are many younger, casual, and differently-abled players out there that find the instanced quests (especially the solo ones) much too difficult to be able to manage at their intended level, and have to outlevel these quests (sometimes greatly) to be able to complete them. These people are willing to accept that they will not get any experience or loot from the enemies they kill, but are willing to give that up just to be able to complete the quest.

Forcing this new scaling on everyone (and not making it optional) will essentially alienate these players, likely causing them to ultimately quit the game in frustration over not being able to complete core game features like the main quest line.

That said, while I am obviously very biased on this subject, I attempted to make my poll options as unbiased as I could. If you feel that they are still biased, please let me know. And please, whichever way you vote, comment below explaining why.

Ashtaris

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I do believe that ZOS should make Dungeon Scaling an option and for the exact same reasons you pointed out. I know my wife was very close to quiting the game during the Lyris Doppelganger phase of the main storyline. It was so frustrating for her that it actually brought her to tears. The only reason she didn't quit is because I encouraged her to keep trying, and then she overleveled enough to finally be able to get through that part of the game. If she wasn't able to overlevel the quest, I would now be playing the game solo. Not everyone comes from a WoW game playing background and it takes time to gather the experience and understand the builds to be able to get through some of the tougher parts of the game. Give the casual players a chance.

FishBreath

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

Doesn't the scaling only happen once when you visit an area? If you aren't able to complete it you can come back later over-leveled.

Gythral

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Reagents: if the dungeons scale then where do players get some of these reagents, if later cities are added to the 'no looting' zones?

As with everything, more options rather than less on how you play are always going to be better.

nerevarine1138

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

Gythral wrote: »

Reagents: if the dungeons scale then where do players get some of these reagents, if later cities are added to the 'no looting' zones?

As with everything, more options rather than less on how you play are always going to be better.

Well, there are plenty of containers in the wilderness, but for the most part, people tend to level crafting as they level their character. Plus, this is only an issue for provisioning.

Moonscythe

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I am always pro-options. There are aspects of any game I truly suck at and would get very frustrated if my suckiness meant I couldn't progress in the main or a faction story line. I don't care about loot but as for experience it should work kind of like critters, i.e. more than 5 levels over gets no experience. I should get some experience though for managing to complete a solo instance.

Divinius

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

FishBreath wrote: »

Doesn't the scaling only happen once when you visit an area? If you aren't able to complete it you can come back later over-leveled.

So you are saying that if you get a quest at, say, level 10, and actually go into the instance while you are still level 10, don't complete it, and come back to it later when you are level 20, that the instance will NOT scale and still be level 10?

While I have not specifically tested this theory, I'd be very surprised if it worked that way. From everything I've seen, the instances scale to your level (or the level of the group leader in the group instances) on-the-fly each time they are entered (and hence, created). I've seen no indication that there's a mechanic in place to "lock" on instance's level to the level at which you entered it the first time.

I'd also be very interested to hear the reasoning used by the people who feel that the scaling should not be optional. None of the people who voted that way has explained their reasoning.

smacx250

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

FishBreath wrote: »

Doesn't the scaling only happen once when you visit an area? If you aren't able to complete it you can come back later over-leveled.

The way the patch notes description reads, the level is set upon "entering the instance", and a new "instance" is created each time you revisit an instanced area. If you leveled while in the instance, the scaling wouldn't be changed.

Solo scaling is determined by your level upon entering the instance, and remains there for the session.

eliisra

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

If scaling is optional, a lot of players (dare I say a majority) wont be available for dungeon groups on level. They will solo at level cap instead, to get the achievement, skill points and story the easy way.

That's the argument for not allowing optional scaling I guess. Will be harder to find groups, for those that actually wants to do more challenging stuff on level.

I want it to be optional though. I already done all dungeons loads of times on my main. Just want to rush through lowbie content on my alts at VR10-14 and get my skill points, so I can go PvP or pick flowers lol.

Divinius

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

eliisra wrote: »

If scaling is optional, a lot of players (dare I say a majority) wont be available for dungeon groups on level. They will solo at level cap instead, to get the achievement, skill points and story the easy way.

That's the argument for not allowing optional scaling I guess. Will be harder to find groups, for those that actually wants to do more challenging stuff on level.

I think I understand your concern, but I don't feel like that would make the situation any worse than it currently is (in the live game now) where the scaling doesn't exist yet. The same number of people would wait to over-level the instance if the scaling was optional as they do currently. And if they forced the scaling, I still don't see how that would help, since players of varying levels still couldn't group together without either having higher-level players face-roll the content (if the group leader was lower-level), or lower level players being useless (if the group leader was higher-level).

There is still an advantage (other than maintaining the challenge) to doing the quests at their intended level (or using the scaling once implemented): exp and loot.

And even all that aside, that still wouldn't explain the necessity to force the scaling on the solo instances.

While I totally get why the level scaling would be a major advantage to have as an option, I still don't understand any reason why it would need to be forced.

AshySamurai

IMO if ZOS eliminate all solo dungs (fg and mg), so someone will able to help, then even forced scaling won't be a problem.
But even if not - I don't care. Forced scaling - more fun. It's like a test if you're ready to move on.

driosketch

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I took a level 40 character through the first fighter's guild quest. With all the skill points to spend, scaled Dosha fell as quickly as she did when you are 10 levels over her. Limiting myself to just critical charge and two handed strike to drag the fight out, but still with the passives, I notice Dosha's fight is far far easier than back in the Beta days. The bonus was that the quest reward was scaled to my level, which actually makes me want to hold off on the solo quests.

That being said, even though I know they've made a number of the battles easier, I would still be in favor of having some sort of difficulty slider.

Guppet

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

If you make it group able, you remove any element of skill check from the game. All the hard encounters have already been nerfed to make them doable by those of below average skill. Im sure the op would have written a letter to his local politician about pre nerf Dosha.

Im sorry but if you allow this, the players that cant complete them now, will finally get past them and then make it to end game and complain that they cant do current endgame content and expect that to be nerfed for them also.

If people cant complete things that have already been made easy, maybe they need to be honest with themselves and admit they suck.

Im pro casual rights, but people need to be willing to try and improve. If you cant do something 95% of people can do, then you need to re-asses how you approach it, maybe look up what to do, ask for advice. Just don't ask to have someone else do it for you, which is what allowing grouping does.

MorHawk

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

eliisra wrote: »

If scaling is optional, a lot of players (dare I say a majority) wont be available for dungeon groups on level. They will solo at level cap instead, to get the achievement, skill points and story the easy way.

That's the argument for not allowing optional scaling I guess. Will be harder to find groups, for those that actually wants to do more challenging stuff on level.

Agreed. I suspect this change was only implemented because of things like Dolmens being ROFLstomped by level capped grinders.

Divinius wrote: »

I think I understand your concern, but I don't feel like that would make the situation any worse than it currently is (in the live game now) where the scaling doesn't exist yet. The same number of people would wait to over-level the instance if the scaling was optional as they do currently.

Yes, and as mentioned above, the way it is currently is bad. You ever tried using the LFG function? I've often spent 20 minutes trying to get a group together.

Divinius wrote: »

And if they forced the scaling, I still don't see how that would help, since players of varying levels still couldn't group together without either having higher-level players face-roll the content (if the group leader was lower-level), or lower level players being useless (if the group leader was higher-level).

The problem of a mismatch between dungeon challenge and player skill will always exist though. It's impossible to always balance perfectly. Citing that problem as a reason not to scale and alleviate the lack of balance somewhat, is like justifying smoking because you could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Divinius

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I don't deny that being able to play the scaled version of an instance has some major advantages. Given the option, I'd even use the scaling myself. My concern stems from other reasons...

You want to gate elite group content behind a skill check, that's fine. But gating the entire Main Quest storyline, which is solo anyway?? That's how you lose subscribers.

AlexDougherty

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Actually I dislike scaling completely, but I feel that saying nobody should have a choice is wrong, some people like that stuff (were if you can't beat the boss, levelling up just makes it worse). Don't know why but they do.

Tonturri

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I don't mind the scaling - it'd be fun to just re-run BC when/(if >.>) I get to VR14 just for the fun of it. But, making it so that you -have- to have the dungeon scale up seems like a whole lot of effort just to take away an option we already have - that is, being able to go solo the dungeon if we want to take a closer look at the story and whatnot, maybe explore a little.

Arthur_Spoonfondle

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

Bad title to this thread. Level scaling does not NEED to be optional, you WANT it to be optional.

AlexDougherty

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Arthur_Spoonfondle wrote: »

Bad title to this thread. Level scaling does not NEED to be optional, you WANT it to be optional.

I disagree, for some of us scaling might be the straw that breaks the camels back, if the bosses scale with us , then if we can't defeat a boss, it's game over, because if we level up the boss levels up (this includes VR level and better gear).

Divinius

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

MorHawk wrote: »

The problem of a mismatch between dungeon challenge and player skill will always exist though. It's impossible to always balance perfectly. Citing that problem as a reason not to scale and alleviate the lack of balance somewhat, is like justifying smoking because you could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

This is a great example of what I see so much of in the threads discussing this issue. I am NOT citing it as a reason to not allow scaling. I am in favor of the scaling. I just feel it needs to be optional.

Please do not confuse "being against scaling" with "being against forced scaling." There is a HUGE difference.

Arthur_Spoonfondle wrote: »

Bad title to this thread. Level scaling does not NEED to be optional, you WANT it to be optional.

Given that it's a poll, the thread title should probably have a question mark next to it. Other than that, it's accurate.

Evergnar

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Should be optional for the exact reasons OP stated. Why Zeni continues to make these type of decisions is mind boggling. Without the option to choose it just replaces one roadblock with another.

Either way it won't effect my game play negatively but I can definitely see it effecting some players.

Guppet

I like the new level scaling, and feel that it should NOT be optional, so that everyone is required to complete these instances without over-leveling them.

Arthur_Spoonfondle wrote: »

Bad title to this thread. Level scaling does not NEED to be optional, you WANT it to be optional.

Agreed, its also a statement rather than a question, which is what polls should be started with.

It should be "Should group and solo instance level scaling be optional?"

Nestor

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I think the scaling should be optional, at least for the Main Story. I had to over level a character to get past some of those battles, and I accepted the lack of loot as a consequence of that. Other characters could do it near their level.

The main reason is, in the regular game, you can find someone to help you with a tough boss or a nasty regular dungeon. In the Main Story and FG/MG, you are forced to be solo, so no way to get help with those. I feel that this will stop some people from playing the game after Coldharbor as they need to complete the main story to get to Caldwell's quests. Sure, some people can and will skip the MQ, then all they have is Craglorn to grind with.

Wait, can you even get to Craglorn if you are not in the VR Instances that come during Caldwell's Quests?

LonePirate

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Nestor wrote: »

Wait, can you even get to Craglorn if you are not in the VR Instances that come during Caldwell's Quests?

I think you just need to be VR1 to enter the zone. I don't believe you need to complete the Main Quest before you can venture there. Please correct me if I am wrong.

MissBizz

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I was someone who had to out level the main quests before I could complete them. Yes, it very much so should be optional.

Ganacampo

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I wasn't even aware this also applies to solo dungeons.

Now this is bad, since it might stop some people from completing quest lines.

Nestor

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Yes, but how do you get to the person who transports you there? I have only seen him in the VR Instances. I think. Maybe he is outside of Elden Root for my AD VR Characters, none of them spend much time in the leveling zone instance of Grahtwood anymore. I don't think I have seen him with my DC character in the leveling zones, but I am not looking for him there.

ThisOnePosts

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

I do like the level scaling personally but I believe the option to choose would be much more well-received overall so that those who don't want to, don't have to and those like me who want to scale up the enemies to my level (or well, to VR12 since they won't go to VR14 just yet) can do so. Everyone wins in that scenario.

Drazhar14

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

There should be a toggle option to enable dungeon scaling. Like the OP said, some people need to over level in order to beat some instances. That is the whole point of leveling up - to be able to beat harder content. If the content scales with you as you level, what is the point of even leveling?!

Also, I enjoy playing low level group dungeons solo to challenge myself, and scaling will eliminate that possibility. Dungeon scaling should not be forced. Either make it toggle, or eliminate it from the next update. I'd rather it be optional, because being able to scale dungeons up for a challenge and to get loot/exp it nice.

Divinius

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Guppet wrote: »

Im pro casual rights, but people need to be willing to try and improve. If you cant do something 95% of people can do, then you need to re-asses how you approach it, maybe look up what to do, ask for advice. Just don't ask to have someone else do it for you, which is what allowing grouping does.

For some people,"improvement" is not an option. Take a look at all the people in the other threads complaining that a physical limitation makes it far harder for them to complete stuff. Are you saying that ZOS should just forfeit that 5% (and I suspect it's far more than you think) of their subscription fees so the rest of the players can... what... "feel more elite" or something?

Also, you are guilty of another misguided argument I've heard against making the scaling optional: Saying that "demanding that a game NOT be made harder" is equivalent to "demanding that a game be made easier." They are two different things -- asking ZOS to "nerf existing content" is completely different from asking them to "not alienate existing players by forcing existing content to be harder."

Nowhere am I asking that end-game content be nerfed. I'm already well aware of what my partner and I will not be able to do come endgame, and content that I know we won't be able to enjoy together. We can both accept that. What I'm adamantly against is making existing Main Storyline solo content harder than it currently is, which is exactly what they are doing.

Nestor wrote: »

The main reason is, in the regular game, you can find someone to help you with a tough boss or a nasty regular dungeon. In the Main Story and FG/MG, you are forced to be solo, so no way to get help with those. I feel that this will stop some people from playing the game after Coldharbor as they need to complete the main story to get to Caldwell's quests. Sure, some people can and will skip the MQ, then all they have is Craglorn to grind with.

Excellent point. Since Craglorn is all group content, and not something that I expect to be able to complete with just myself and one other person with minimal skill, I have since already accepted Craglorn as something I'm not going to be able to participate much in with my partner, and I knew that was going to happen before I ever even suggested that we play together. That leaves Cadwell's Silver and Gold as the only endgame content we will be able to enjoy together. But OH WAIT, we won't be able to do that either, because the main quest is gated with forced solo (and soon to be forced level-scaled) quests that will be very difficult for my partner to complete on her own. Thanks for that, ZOS.

Nestor

I like the new level scaling, but feel that it SHOULD be optional, so players can choose to have the instance scaled to their level or not.

Ganacampo wrote: »

I wasn't even aware this also applies to solo dungeons.

Now this is bad, since it might stop some people from completing quest lines.

Just to clarify, this is applied to the Solo Dungeons that you are forced to do Solo in the Main Quest, Fighters and Mages. The other dungeons that you can do solo or with others will not scale like this.

Ironic as one of the screens in the Death Recap suggest that you come back with a friend to help you win the battle......