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When Update 5 drops......
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WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
P2PBetaTesters
#Tamriel_BETA_Team
#BETA_TESTER4LYF
DominionMasterRace
#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
0 -
BCBasher✭✭✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
I play 50+ hours a week, is that excessive? Do I deserve all the banked xp I'm acrueing on my vr14 grinding craglorn to get away from the frustration of the cyrodil disconnects and freeze? I think I do, I'm investing time in my character development even though there is no available progression right now.0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
I play 50+ hours a week, is that excessive? Do I deserve all the banked xp I'm acrueing on my vr14 grinding craglorn to get away from the frustration of the cyrodil disconnects and freeze? I think I do, I'm investing time in my character development even though there is no available progression right now.
You honestly need someone to say 50 hours a week is excessive? You'll be capped, assuming your productive during those logged hours.2 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
Well considering I have no characters currently at the level cap I think you're making assumptions and going a step further by attempting personal insults.
I don't think I play excessively at all, I'm a disabled veteran finishing up a degree.
So put a pin in that "You play too much" attitude.
Look at it this way, if this system and it's implementation were planned at launch rather than an afterthought as it appears to be, then we would be mentally ready to accept that some of our efforts would fall by the wayside.
Got it. Roger. Tracking.
As it stands, the Champion system is essentially a soft-relaunch of the game.
I don't think it's wrong to want to be rewarded for our efforts, even if it's not immediately.
Nobody wants to put in the effort without getting the reward. And I don't care who you are, if you're not being rewarded for your efforts, you're not going to be happy.
Regardless of whether you LIVE on the game, or if you play when you get home from work and the kids go to bed.
It's not a "how much you play" issue. It's a "work vs reward" issue.
It's not a "false" sense of entitlement to believe, your amount of effort should garner SOME sort of reward.
Have I beat this horse enough to get my point across?
Edited by WraithAzraiel on October 23, 2014 5:12PMShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
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Dont Shoot✭✭people take their games way too seriously. Analyzing the numbers down to the programming. you know what I think a lot of the problems are. People expect ESO to somehow fill an empty void inside themselves. The hole playing WoW way too much for 10 years puts in people. ESO can't fill that hole. You wasted 10 years of your life. Go take a walk next time you're mad to tears over your skills getting nerfed. good godEdited by Dont Shoot on October 23, 2014 5:27PM1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
Well considering I have no characters currently at the level cap I think you're making assumptions and going a step further by attempting personal insults.
I don't think I play excessively at all, I'm a disabled veteran finishing up a degree.
So put a pin in that "You play too much" attitude.
Look at it this way, if this system and it's implementation were planned at launch rather than an afterthought as it appears to be, then we would be mentally ready to accept that some of our efforts would fall by the wayside.
Got it. Roger. Tracking.
As it stands, the Champion system is essentially a soft-relaunch of the game.
I don't think it's wrong to want to be rewarded for our efforts, even if it's not immediately.
Nobody wants to put in the effort without getting the reward. And I don't care who you are, if you're not being rewarded for your efforts, you're not going to be happy.
Regardless of whether you LIVE on the game, or if you play when you get home from work and the kids go to bed.
It's not a "how much you play" issue. It's a "work vs reward" issue.
It's not a "false" sense of entitlement to believe, your amount of effort should garner SOME sort of reward.
Have I beat this horse enough to get my point across?
I'm not in anyway insulting you. If you are disabled, then it's fair enough you play more. But they can't balance the game around people that play far in excess of what others do.
I know it's not your choice, but there are some who do choose to play excessively, like that gent that does 50 hours a week (he may be trolling, if he doesn't see that as excessive).
Your individual circumstances should not come into it, unless your asking for preferential treatment, due to being disabled. Just to be clear, that's not something that could be quantified by the devs. If they put s disabled tick box, you can be damn sure all the jobless dossers would tick it too.
I'll be honest and say that I thought you were the person I initially quoted (GreyBrow). I'm not sure why you are so pro "all xp should be awarded" then.
We know there will be a cap (I'm probably nearer to that than I would like to think). There's no point arguing that all xp should be awarded.
Anyone who plays excessively (regardless of their circumstances) is likely to be over that cap. That's just common sense. The key is in the word excessive, significantly more than the norm.
The cap will be absolute as well. It cant use escrow, or there's no cap. Anything over the cap must be lost or they are not actually capping.Edited by Guppet on October 23, 2014 6:14PM1 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭But regardless, this topic has gotten off track.
It's not about how many Champion points we'll get when they're launched, it's not about who plays too much who plays too little who plays juuuuuuust enough, it's not about whether or not there will be a cap and what will said cap be.
It's not.
This thread is about whether or not we will be getting rewarded with progression towards our next level with the activities we went beyond necessity (necessity being none of these activities rewarded us with Veteran Points toward our next Veteran Level, regardless of if they were "magically" being tracked in the background since the dawn of the game, that's irrelevant in this instance) to accomplish once Update 5 goes live.
Those of us NOT V14, who have been getting all the points of interest and clearing every map of objectives and activities that once gave XP before 50 but did not award VP post-50 should be rewarded for their diligence to completion now that the currency has changed back to a medium for which those activities would be rewarded.
That is my point, that was my question. This has nothing to do with the implementation of the Champion system and how it will affect us.
This only has to do what how they will be addressing the XP disparity once Update 5 launches.
Will we have to go back and rediscover all these Points of Interest and Caves and Delves and wayshrines in order to be credited with XP toward our next Veteran Rank?
Will be given it retroactively based on a system that reads our achievements and adequately deals out the correct amount of XP for the number of objectives completed?
Or did we all just waste our time discovering these places and our only reward is the fact that we're thorough and we maybe unlock a new dye?Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
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#BETA_TESTER4LYF
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#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT1 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
Well considering I have no characters currently at the level cap I think you're making assumptions and going a step further by attempting personal insults.
I don't think I play excessively at all, I'm a disabled veteran finishing up a degree.
So put a pin in that "You play too much" attitude.
Look at it this way, if this system and it's implementation were planned at launch rather than an afterthought as it appears to be, then we would be mentally ready to accept that some of our efforts would fall by the wayside.
Got it. Roger. Tracking.
As it stands, the Champion system is essentially a soft-relaunch of the game.
I don't think it's wrong to want to be rewarded for our efforts, even if it's not immediately.
Nobody wants to put in the effort without getting the reward. And I don't care who you are, if you're not being rewarded for your efforts, you're not going to be happy.
Regardless of whether you LIVE on the game, or if you play when you get home from work and the kids go to bed.
It's not a "how much you play" issue. It's a "work vs reward" issue.
It's not a "false" sense of entitlement to believe, your amount of effort should garner SOME sort of reward.
Have I beat this horse enough to get my point across?
I'm not in anyway insulting you. If you are disabled, then it's fair enough you play more. But they can't balance the game around people that play far in excess of what others do.
I know it's not your choice, but there are some who do choose to play excessively, like that gent that does 50 hours a week (he may be trolling, if he doesn't see that as excessive).
Your individual circumstances should not come into it, unless your asking for preferential treatment, due to being disabled. Just to be clear, that's not something that could be quantified by the devs. If they put s disabled tick box, you can be damn sure all the jobless dossers would tick it too.
I'll be honest and say that I thought you were the person I initially quoted (GreyBrow). I'm not sure why you are so pro "all xp should be awarded" then.
We know there will be a cap (I'm probably nearer to that than I would like to think). There's no point arguing that all xp should be awarded.
Anyone who plays excessively (regardless of their circumstances) is likely to be over that cap. That's just common sense. The key is in the word excessive, significantly more than the norm.
The cap will be absolute as well. It cant use escrow, or there's no cap. Anything over the cap must be lost or they are not actually capping.
I'm not asking for preferential treatment at all. All I'm asking for is adequate effort = adequate reward.
That's not an unreasonable request.
MMO's are based, no, built on this system. This game already addressed it once when they tweaked Veteran ranks and zones the first time. There was a few people that actually unsubscribed because they felt the Veteran zones were more work than it was worth.
Work should = reward. That being said of course there needs to be a limit. But these limits should be clearly indicated and marked. Something that has not been expanded upon by ZOS at this point.
So all our arguing all our posturing all our discussion is nothing but speculation.
I played the Veteran card to try and shame you for what I perceived as you being a bit lofty in your judgement of others and how they spend their $15. It was in retaliation for my perception of a judgmental remark on your part. Not to say, "Hey I'm special, give me things." No, I'm nothing if not part of this giant-ass team/family/community of gamers that find enjoyment in this game. I just don't like doing something for nothing.
And with the switch back to XP from VP, things that I did even though I got nothing but Achievement points and maybe a dye, I'd like to see the XP granted as well.
The dynamic has changed, the currency with which we gain Veteran ranks has been changed. Where once an activity did not award progression toward the next level, now it will. So what for us that can't go back and repeat those activities?
Nor am I asking for them to balance a game around people who play a lot. No, I just don't want to see people getting screwed out of their efforts. To a degree.
If you live on this game and can't detach, seek help. Or wait for your family to stage an intervention.
Regardless, lets get back on course with the actual spirit of the topic as mentioned in my above post.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭I posted the same question a week ago, got no response then either. Maybe in the live chat it needs raising.0 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I'm detailing pinpoints an imbalance for people who have already discovered those objectives that have possible XP and level progression NOW reattached to them with the launch of Update 5.
At this point and time, I could care less about Champion points, they're in the distant future as far as I'm concerned right now.
They'll be there, there's a max we can all get, we'll get the max eventually. I'm talking about stuff that we won't be able to get back.
To my current understanding, you can't go back and rediscover a location, Mundus stone, wayshrine, cave or delve.
The disparity between the amount of activities that granted VP and those that granted XP is great.
To my understanding, you gain VP for killing critters, handing in quests, completing Dolmens(,unlocking chests?), clearing caves/delves(killing the named critter inside I could be wrong and the only VP you get is from the actual kill of the named boss critter) and killing World Bosses. And that's it, if I missed something please correct me.
Again, to my understanding, you gained XP for killing critters, handing in quests, completing Dolmens, killing World Bosses, discovering Points of Interest(Camps etc etc) discovering new towns/areas, unlocking wayshrines, discovering Mundus stones, discovering set bonus crafting stations and clearing caves/delves. and unlocking chests! can't forget that!
There's a possible of 6 activities that reward VP toward your progression to the next Veteran Rank as it stands currently.
Pre-50, there was 11 activities that rewarded XP toward your next level.
I hope this better illustrates my point.Edited by WraithAzraiel on October 23, 2014 7:42PMShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
P2PBetaTesters
#Tamriel_BETA_Team
#BETA_TESTER4LYF
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#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT0 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I posted the same question a week ago, got no response then either. Maybe in the live chat it needs raising.
Yep, I posted the question on the ESO Live with Paul Sage question thread. We'll see if they conveniently gloss over it or not.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
P2PBetaTesters
#Tamriel_BETA_Team
#BETA_TESTER4LYF
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#GOAHEADTHEYGOTCANDY
#SEEMSLEGIT0 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I do get the feeling the are not answering, because we wont like the answer. My VR8.5 will be VR8.5 and my 7.0 will be 7.0WraithAzraiel wrote: »
0 -
BCBasher✭✭✭WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?
He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.
To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.
This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.
He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.
Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.
What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.
Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.
For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.
Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%
Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.
What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.
If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.
My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.
By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.
After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.
I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?
What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?
I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.
You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.
I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.
There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.
You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote
You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.
There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.
They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).
They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.
Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.
All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.
No, not rage. Rightfully demand.
If they impose a weekly cap, say like other MMO's have done, on their "end game point system thingers" then someone who devoted that much time to playing should be at the weekly cap for a good long while. Without their time spent being for nothing.
Mind you, they're probably not going to do it this way, and it's going to *** people off. I just want ZOS to acknowledge it one way or the other.
Rightfully demand? lol and I thought it was the casuals with entitlement issues.
Answer these honestly. Do you think you play excessively? How much would you estimate you play a week? and do you think you should be above or below any cap?
I think you know the answers, your just afraid to admit it.
I play 50+ hours a week, is that excessive? Do I deserve all the banked xp I'm acrueing on my vr14 grinding craglorn to get away from the frustration of the cyrodil disconnects and freeze? I think I do, I'm investing time in my character development even though there is no available progression right now.
You honestly need someone to say 50 hours a week is excessive? You'll be capped, assuming your productive during those logged hours.
No I didn't need someone to I wanted to see if they would. I only need/want to work 30 hours a week and my man cave is in my living room so I can do family time homework supervision etc. While i'm playing so it works for me.
On topic I believe I've seen chests trigger a skill increase after vr14 so I'd assume the little xp gains like chests and exploration are being tracked.
0 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I do get the feeling the are not answering, because we wont like the answer. My VR8.5 will be VR8.5 and my 7.0 will be 7.0WraithAzraiel wrote: »
Probably, but it'd be better to get ahead of the potential problem by acknowledging it instead of trying to be all "OH WE HAD NO IDEA THAT WOULD HAPPEN, WE can't do anything about it now that Update 5 has launched. Sorry everybody!" /sadface.
They could also use the excuse that "we had no idea this question was even on the forums, we're so busy and the forums are large. You can't really expect us to pay attention to everything that gets posted can you?"
Which would be bullsh!t, considering other questions get answered by people with ZOS_ in their name right after it gets posted, which would indicate that at LEAST SOMEBODY keeps clicking the Recent Discussions button every few minutes, which is exactly what I do. And this topic has been a Recent Discussion many many many many times since it's inception.
It's getting to the point where they are either:
A) Actively ignoring it because they have an answer we won't like and don't want to deal with it
or
2) Actively ignoring it because no one knows the answer.
Hell, some threads have gotten Brian Wheeler to post on them and he's the PvP Lead. Surely someone can pass this to whoever the hell would have the answer or at least acknowledge that they sent this concern in the direction of people that know what the f#ck is going on.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
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WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Still nothing. Looks like I'll be watching the ESO live tomorrow to see if they bring up my question.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Well put. I'm not sure whether unlocking chests grants VP or not, but I don't think it does. There's one source of XP which you have missed; Scripted Events. These include Dark Fissures, Lightbringer, beggars, the Daedra Summoner, ambushes, and so on. I'm not sure whether they give VP or not.WraithAzraiel wrote: »To my understanding, you gain VP for killing critters, handing in quests, completing Dolmens(,unlocking chests?), clearing caves/delves(killing the named critter inside I could be wrong and the only VP you get is from the actual kill of the named boss critter) and killing World Bosses. And that's it, if I missed something please correct me.
Again, to my understanding, you gained XP for killing critters, handing in quests, completing Dolmens, killing World Bosses, discovering Points of Interest(Camps etc etc) discovering new towns/areas, unlocking wayshrines, discovering Mundus stones, discovering set bonus crafting stations and clearing caves/delves. and unlocking chests! can't forget that!
There's a possible of 6 activities that reward VP toward your progression to the next Veteran Rank as it stands currently.
Pre-50, there was 11 activities that rewarded XP toward your next level.
I hope this better illustrates my point.
There is however a bit of a misinterpretation there; discovering Points of Interest(Camps etc etc) discovering new towns/areas, unlocking wayshrines, discovering Mundus stones, and discovering set bonus crafting stations, are not 5 different things. They're all one thing: Discovery. As are completing dolmens, clearing caves, and killing World Bosses; they are all Completion.
XP is gained from 6 activities: Killing critters, Quests, Lockpicking, Discovery, Completion, and Scripted Events.
VP is gained from 4 activities: Killing critters, Quests, Completion, and possibly Scripted Events.
It's worth noting that the two persistent activities which do give XP and don't give VP (Discovery and Lockpicking) are the ones which provide the least XP anyway (each instance is ~400XP), so any incorporation of their XP if such a thing occurs is likely to not make a big dent in your VR progression. Discovering every single location in the game will give you about 1/3 of a Rank, and you already have 1/3 of all locations before reaching VR. So under the new system, incorporating discovery of these locations would put you about 20% further along VR progression of one Rank.Edited by Enodoc on October 24, 2014 9:10AMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Syntse✭✭✭✭✭@Enodoc didn't want to quote your whole last post so... opening chests do give VP.
The other things missed would be nice to hear some Zos response. Does exp towards level still continue to count after lvl 50 or is the xp gain towards lvl just frozen once hit 50 (meaning even though we do not see it since we get VP is the exp still there)?Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Oh, whoops. My bad@Enodoc didn't want to quote your whole last post so... opening chests do give VP.
XP is gained from 6 activities: Killing critters, Quests, Lockpicking, Discovery, Completion, and Scripted Events.
VP is gained from 5 activities: Killing critters, Quests, Lockpicking, Completion, and possibly Scripted Events.Edited by Enodoc on October 24, 2014 10:58AMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Enodoc didn't want to quote your whole last post so... opening chests do give VP.
The other things missed would be nice to hear some Zos response. Does exp towards level still continue to count after lvl 50 or is the xp gain towards lvl just frozen once hit 50 (meaning even though we do not see it since we get VP is the exp still there)?
Pretty sure chests don't give any VP at all. I just opened 3 and gone none on a VR7.0 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's the official response all, posted on another thread right after the guild summit.ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.
We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.
How will the current system change when the Champion System gets introduced?
The Champion System will introduce new past lvl 50 progression for your account where previously there was only an increase in Veteran Ranks and Attributes. The Champion System allows you spend points in the constellations to earn powerful passives such as giving your bash a chance to snare targets, reduce the amount of damage you take from flames or leech health on critical strikes.
What happens to the Veteran Ranks we currently have VR1-12?
We want to remove the Veteran Ranks from the game and rely on the more active progression provided by the Champion System. However, when we release the Champion System we will continue to maintain Veteran Ranks. We have several options as to how we will remove Veteran Ranks but all of them require time and careful planning. In the meantime, we are making Veteran Ranks earned by XP and reducing the overall time it takes to get a Veteran Rank. We are also rewarding an Attribute Point and a Skill Point each time you reach a Veteran Rank.
What happens to the Skill Points from VR1-12? Are they carried over to the CS instead?
The Skill Points we reward will not be removed from you! You will continue to have the same amount of Skill Points you do now. The Champion System does not reward any Skill Points, only gaining Veteran Ranks does. When we take out Veteran Ranks we will make sure that anyone that didn't make it max Veteran Rank will still rewarded with those Skill Points.
Does everyone that is a Veteran Rank get lowered back to lvl50? Or are the Ranks staying, but only being changed to lvl 51, 52, etc instead?
Similar to an answer before, we just don’t know yet.
Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.
Edited by Cuyler on October 24, 2014 12:19PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here's the official response all, posted on another thread right after the guild summit.ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.
We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.
How will the current system change when the Champion System gets introduced?
The Champion System will introduce new past lvl 50 progression for your account where previously there was only an increase in Veteran Ranks and Attributes. The Champion System allows you spend points in the constellations to earn powerful passives such as giving your bash a chance to snare targets, reduce the amount of damage you take from flames or leech health on critical strikes.
What happens to the Veteran Ranks we currently have VR1-12?
We want to remove the Veteran Ranks from the game and rely on the more active progression provided by the Champion System. However, when we release the Champion System we will continue to maintain Veteran Ranks. We have several options as to how we will remove Veteran Ranks but all of them require time and careful planning. In the meantime, we are making Veteran Ranks earned by XP and reducing the overall time it takes to get a Veteran Rank. We are also rewarding an Attribute Point and a Skill Point each time you reach a Veteran Rank.
What happens to the Skill Points from VR1-12? Are they carried over to the CS instead?
The Skill Points we reward will not be removed from you! You will continue to have the same amount of Skill Points you do now. The Champion System does not reward any Skill Points, only gaining Veteran Ranks does. When we take out Veteran Ranks we will make sure that anyone that didn't make it max Veteran Rank will still rewarded with those Skill Points.
Does everyone that is a Veteran Rank get lowered back to lvl50? Or are the Ranks staying, but only being changed to lvl 51, 52, etc instead?
Similar to an answer before, we just don’t know yet.
Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.
@Cuyler thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the specific question "Are we back-credited Exploration XP for Discovery, since Discovery does not grant VP".
All we can take from that is things that advanced your way through Veteran Ranks - ie things that granted VP - will be back-credited to XP. Nothing about things that do not generate VP and therefore do not "advance your way through Veteran Ranks". Which leads to exactly what I inferred from that already - it appears that we will be back-credited for these, based on the fact that my data-logger appears to be recording invisible XP for Discovery.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp1 -
Syntse✭✭✭✭✭Pretty sure chests don't give any VP at all. I just opened 3 and gone none on a VR7.
This must have changed then. I remember when I went vet with my first char I was opening chests in pre-vet area and got VP for it.
Glad someone tested it to confirm it.Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]0 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's the official response all, posted on another thread right after the guild summit.ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.
We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.
How will the current system change when the Champion System gets introduced?
The Champion System will introduce new past lvl 50 progression for your account where previously there was only an increase in Veteran Ranks and Attributes. The Champion System allows you spend points in the constellations to earn powerful passives such as giving your bash a chance to snare targets, reduce the amount of damage you take from flames or leech health on critical strikes.
What happens to the Veteran Ranks we currently have VR1-12?
We want to remove the Veteran Ranks from the game and rely on the more active progression provided by the Champion System. However, when we release the Champion System we will continue to maintain Veteran Ranks. We have several options as to how we will remove Veteran Ranks but all of them require time and careful planning. In the meantime, we are making Veteran Ranks earned by XP and reducing the overall time it takes to get a Veteran Rank. We are also rewarding an Attribute Point and a Skill Point each time you reach a Veteran Rank.
What happens to the Skill Points from VR1-12? Are they carried over to the CS instead?
The Skill Points we reward will not be removed from you! You will continue to have the same amount of Skill Points you do now. The Champion System does not reward any Skill Points, only gaining Veteran Ranks does. When we take out Veteran Ranks we will make sure that anyone that didn't make it max Veteran Rank will still rewarded with those Skill Points.
Does everyone that is a Veteran Rank get lowered back to lvl50? Or are the Ranks staying, but only being changed to lvl 51, 52, etc instead?
Similar to an answer before, we just don’t know yet.
Should players that are VR1+ still work towards VR12 or should they just wait until the new changes.
Continue to play! We are tracking your XP as you advance your way through Veteran Ranks and even past VR14. When the Champion System comes out we will reward you points right away based on the amount of XP you have earned up to a cap. In general, most people won’t reach the cap and we do not know what that cap is yet. We're still working out that value and making sure to take a look at the XP you all are earning.
@Cuyler thanks for that, but it still doesn't answer the specific question "Are we back-credited Exploration XP for Discovery, since Discovery does not grant VP".
All we can take from that is things that advanced your way through Veteran Ranks - ie things that granted VP - will be back-credited to XP. Nothing about things that do not generate VP and therefore do not "advance your way through Veteran Ranks". Which leads to exactly what I inferred from that already - it appears that we will be back-credited for these, based on the fact that my data-logger appears to be recording invisible XP for Discovery.
Hmm. I see. The title of this thread could have been more appropriately named to reflect discussion of the CS not simply "update 5". May of gained more attention. I was hoping to clear up some misinformation on the thread that stated "they are only tracking XP past VR14" which was incorrect.
First off, CPs will only be awarded on XP gained past lvl50 so don't expect to get CPs for the wayshrines, POIs, etc. you discovered prior to lvl50.
My understanding is that they've had and have the ability to track all points earned from the beginning, either XP or VP. If you think about it, they have to, or else every time you logged in your character would start at lvl1.
So it's not that unimaginable that they can look at the XP you had at lvl50 and the XP you have now, subtract the difference and transpose that to CPs.
I'm not the professional here but maybe @ZOS_MariaAliprando could shed some more info on the question when she gets a break from CS development?Are we back-credited Exploration XP for Discovery, since Discovery does not grant VP?Edited by Cuyler on October 24, 2014 1:53PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]0 -
WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Hmm. I see. The title of this thread could have been more appropriately named to reflect discussion of the CS not simply "update 5".
How could it have been titled more appropriately?
When I created this thread, I wasn't worried about the Champion System. It was never about the Champion System.
My question doesn't pertain to Champion points and how they're gained. That's been answered.
This thread was never meant to bring up the Champion System at all. It's too far in the future to worry about. This is a matter that's right around the corner.
My question has to do with the switch from VP to XP and the repercussions of it for those not V14 but finished with Caldwell's Silver and Gold.
My question is, since those of us who are not V14 but still Vsomething CANNOT go back and complete the Discovery activities that will award XP toward the next Vrank because we've already Discovered them, will we be credited for their Discovery or SoL?Edited by WraithAzraiel on October 24, 2014 6:27PMShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
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WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭According to @ZOS_GinaBruno our Veteran rank will not move when Update 5 goes live.
Soooo I guess all of us that missed out on getting XP credit toward our next Veteran Rank by participating in activities that did NOT award VP are just SoL.Shendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
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WraithAzraiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭EssentiallyShendell De'Gull - V14 Vampire Nightblade
Captain of the Black Howling
"There's no such thing as overkill..."
"No problem on the face of the Earth exists what can't be fixed with the proper application of enough duct tape and 550 cord."
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