When Update 5 drops......

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

kongkim wrote: »

Do not hope they just boost our level. i like to see the other areas and do the questing and till gain my levels on the way.

I'm not hoping they just blindly boost our level, I'd like clear acknowledgement that we're being credited for the work that we put in. For doing the activities that gave us XP before we ventured into the Veteran zones even though we gained no visible benefit.

I just want work to equal reward.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

I am more than a little disturbed that this thread and question has had 1,500 views and not 1 ZOS representative has chimed in to shine any light on the subject.

@ZOS_AmeliaR‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @‌ZOS_Anybody

No idea to whom else to reach out . Inquiring minds and all that.

Enodoc · October 2014

I'm not sure how long it has actually been doing this, as I've only been VR1 since after Update 4, but I have a data logger add-on that records XP/VP gain.
What you see upon hitting VR1 is something like the following:

Everything that previously granted XP still gives XP, it's just recorded invisibly.
Completing a quest recorded "6534 XP for quest"; "1520 veteran points for XP".
Quest XP and POI Completion XP were converted to VP.
POI Discovery XP was not converted to VP.
Killing Lvl <50 mobs only rewarded XP, no conversion to VP.
[Have not checked VR1+ mobs as I'm not in the right place to do that, but it's likely just another XP to VP conversion]

So things already record XP at Veteran Ranks, it's just accumulating in the background. My theory then is that this recorded XP is what will be pulled forwards when VP is changed to XP. They may need to scale it slightly so that it makes sense.

@ZOS_TristanK‌ is my understanding accurate?

Valymer · October 2014

I discovered a wayshrine yesterday at VR8 and my One Hand and Shield ranked up. I also had a skill rank up when opening a treasure chest.

This tells me that as @Enodoc says we are indeed getting EXP for everything just as we did pre-Vet, we just can't normally see it without some kind of third-party tool.

The question is whether or not Zenimax has been tracking all of this invisible, accumulated EXP for each character once they hit VR1.

Assuming that they have, the next question is how exactly (if at all) that earned EXP will convert into Champion System points for our characters. If it will all convert, then we can just level as usual and not worry about it because we can be sure that we will be rewarded in terms of CS points once that update goes live. But if it will not convert into CS points, the best course of action would be to stop doing any PvE at all until the Champion System comes out, because you can only do certain things (like discoveries) once and you wouldn't want to waste that EXP.

If Zenimax will cap the amount of hidden EXP that can be converted to CS points, then there is absolutely no way to predict the best thing to do until the update because we have no idea what that cap will be, nor where exactly our characters sit on the earned hidden exp scale.

GreyBrow · October 2014

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You have earned XP's from Day 1.

Every discovery, every chest opened, every enemy slain (within 5 levels) have granted XP's. They simply cease to be visible after Vet 1.

Equally, they have indicated they have been keeping track of XP's earned even after level cap.

So, yes, you will get credit, in whatever converted form they decide for all you have done along the way.

I'm hoping this is the case. I hate doing something for nothing. Not enough reward for the amount of work I put in is why my wife and I took a break from the game in May.

Either road, I and the rest of us would very much like a definitive answer from the Powers that Be.

There is one other benefit that will be implemented with the change, as well. (Make that two, you'll get grandfathered Attribute and Skill Points per Vet Rank too)

The amount of XP's required to go up a Vet level will become a flat rate.

Same XP's to go from VR1 to VR2 as to go from VR13 to VR14. Something in the neighborhood of 1.4 million, I think?

From the PTS forum regarding 1.5:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Veteran Rank Improvements
We have been tracking Experience gains past maximum Veteran Rank on accounts in preparation for the Champion System. Veteran Ranks are now earned by Experience Points instead of Veteran Points. From this moment on, Veteran Points shall be banished from the land of Tamriel. When a Veteran Rank is earned, you will be rewarded with an Attribute Point and a Skill Point.

Reduced the amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina rewarded on a Veteran Rank gain by 35% to compensate for the new Attribute Points rewarded.

It takes 1,432,550 Experience Points to gain a Veteran Rank. We expect this to greatly reduce the amount of time it takes to gain a Veteran Rank.

Enodoc · October 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The amount of XP's required to go up a Vet level will become a flat rate.

Same XP's to go from VR1 to VR2 as to go from VR13 to VR14. Something in the neighborhood of 1.4 million, I think?

From the PTS forum regarding 1.5:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Veteran Rank Improvements
We have been tracking Experience gains past maximum Veteran Rank on accounts in preparation for the Champion System. Veteran Ranks are now earned by Experience Points instead of Veteran Points. From this moment on, Veteran Points shall be banished from the land of Tamriel. When a Veteran Rank is earned, you will be rewarded with an Attribute Point and a Skill Point.

Reduced the amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina rewarded on a Veteran Rank gain by 35% to compensate for the new Attribute Points rewarded.

It takes 1,432,550 Experience Points to gain a Veteran Rank. We expect this to greatly reduce the amount of time it takes to gain a Veteran Rank.

Makes sense. XPs vary by level, and at Veteran Rank, everything is Level 50. You may have gotten more VPs with a higher VR, but the invisible XP that was converted to those VPs was still the same.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Valymer wrote: »

I discovered a wayshrine yesterday at VR8 and my One Hand and Shield ranked up. I also had a skill rank up when opening a treasure chest.

This tells me that as @Enodoc says we are indeed getting EXP for everything that we did pre-Vet, we just can't normally see it without some kind of third-party tool.

The question is whether or not Zenimax has been tracking all of this invisible, accumulated EXP for each character once they hit VR1.

Assuming that they have, the next question is how exactly (if at all) that earned EXP will convert into Champion System points for our characters. If it will all convert, then we can just level as usual and not worry about it because we can be sure that we will be rewarded in terms of CS points once that update goes live. But if it will not convert into CS points, the best course of action would be to stop doing any PvE at all until the Champion System comes out, because you can only do certain things (like discoveries) once and you wouldn't want to waste that EXP.

If Zenimax will cap the amount of hidden EXP that can be converted to CS points, then there is absolutely no way to predict the best thing to do until the update because we have no idea what that cap will be, nor where exactly our characters sit on the earned hidden exp scale.

Oh I'd be absolutely livid if, once it came time for the Champion system, all the work we did being completionists and explorers was just kicked to the curb.

Pretty sure there'd be a mass exodus of players who've been here since launch.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Here's what I really don't get.

This thread's got 2 pages worth of valid questions and almost 2,000 views. Yet no official word even giving us a "You'll find out! #MysteryScoobyDo!" or "Your concerns are valid, we're looking into how to best answer your question."

Yet somebody goes and posts a question that can easily be answered by the individual spending JUST AS MUCH time as it spend typing their post, googling the damned answer and yet BOOM, they instantly get attention from someone with a ZOS_ in their name.

At first, I figured "Hey it's a good question, maybe they gotta find the guy/gal that's responsible for all this and rattle their cage, maybe that person's busy making awesome stuff for us to play with.

NOW I feel like the guy yelling about a possible problem in a nuclear plant and being actively ignored by the safety department.

ZOS, at least let us know this concern is on your radar and being brought up the correct individuals.

MornaBaine · October 2014

Although I'm nowhere NEAR being at a point where this will affect me (my main is only VR3) I, too, am interested in the answer. Champion system is going to change so many things and this is a pretty vital question.

Guppet · October 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

They said there will be a cap and the vast majority of people won't be effected. You will be effected, rightly so. You can't expect to have 7.5 times the bonus's of other players. Now I understand that you may struggle against them unless you are vastly more powerful, but tough luck. If you don't like the cap, play less than a normal person works for, or jog on!

Also achievement points have no direct correlation to xp gained.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Guppet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

They said there will be a cap and the vast majority of people won't be effected. You will be effected, rightly so. You can't expect to have 7.5 times the bonus's of other players. Now I understand that you may struggle against them unless you are vastly more powerful, but tough luck. If you don't like the cap, play less than a normal person works for, or jog on!

Also achievement points have no direct correlation to xp gained.

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Also, as it stands, achievement points have no direct correlation to anything. Aside from getting dyes and titles, achievement points are useless. You can't even look at someone and tell how many achievement points they have.

BUT, you do get achievement points for completing tasks whose objectives and requirements once gave XP. IE: <insert zone name here> Pathfinder! or <insert name here> Explorer

So I guess if you want to nitpick, that could be considered a correlation.

Beesting · October 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

Dude, chill out, fear is the path to the dark side

Big_Mike · October 2014

I personally think the whole point of going from VR system, to a Experience base system, is just to make the transition into the champion system easier. Like if they tried to jump straight into the Champion system I think the calculations would be super complex and could cause a lot of issues all at once. Them breaking it into two steps probably is to minimize the damage, and make for a smoother transition.

Guppet · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

They said there will be a cap and the vast majority of people won't be effected. You will be effected, rightly so. You can't expect to have 7.5 times the bonus's of other players. Now I understand that you may struggle against them unless you are vastly more powerful, but tough luck. If you don't like the cap, play less than a normal person works for, or jog on!

Also achievement points have no direct correlation to xp gained.

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Also, as it stands, achievement points have no direct correlation to anything. Aside from getting dyes and titles, achievement points are useless. You can't even look at someone and tell how many achievement points they have.

BUT, you do get achievement points for completing tasks whose objectives and requirements once gave XP. IE: <insert zone name here> Pathfinder! or <insert name here> Explorer

So I guess if you want to nitpick, that could be considered a correlation.

Don't get me wrong, if you play more you get more. But they said there wil be a cap. The gentleman I'm referring to plays for more time each week than most full time jobs. His main alone is over 25 hours a week, not including any alts, he said 600 hours.

If they translate all of that without a cap, it's not in anyway a temporary bonus, since he will still be putting in that time. His advantage will only grow larger over time.

Any cap has to be for a reasonable investment of time, his gameplay time is far far in excess of what most should consider reasonable.

I would expect the cap to be hit by anyone that puts in over 20 hours a week, maybe even less. Anyone putting in that much time needs to realise that it is excessive.

They are already adding diminishing returns to the champion system, to stop excessive players from becoming too powerful, so they do already see that they need limiting.

If they allow people playing for the sort of timescales he has been, to be rewarded on the same reward pet hour scale as someone that plays a more reasonable ammount, they risk loosing income from the more reasonable players.

All players pay the same, but if you allow players to build up an unassailable advantage, your game becomes niche, with only players of that sort paying.

Pallmor · October 2014

Guppet wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

They said there will be a cap and the vast majority of people won't be effected. You will be effected, rightly so. You can't expect to have 7.5 times the bonus's of other players. Now I understand that you may struggle against them unless you are vastly more powerful, but tough luck. If you don't like the cap, play less than a normal person works for, or jog on!

Also achievement points have no direct correlation to xp gained.

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Also, as it stands, achievement points have no direct correlation to anything. Aside from getting dyes and titles, achievement points are useless. You can't even look at someone and tell how many achievement points they have.

BUT, you do get achievement points for completing tasks whose objectives and requirements once gave XP. IE: <insert zone name here> Pathfinder! or <insert name here> Explorer

So I guess if you want to nitpick, that could be considered a correlation.

Don't get me wrong, if you play more you get more. But they said there wil be a cap. The gentleman I'm referring to plays for more time each week than most full time jobs. His main alone is over 25 hours a week, not including any alts, he said 600 hours.

If they translate all of that without a cap, it's not in anyway a temporary bonus, since he will still be putting in that time. His advantage will only grow larger over time.

Any cap has to be for a reasonable investment of time, his gameplay time is far far in excess of what most should consider reasonable.

I would expect the cap to be hit by anyone that puts in over 20 hours a week, maybe even less. Anyone putting in that much time needs to realise that it is excessive.

They are already adding diminishing returns to the champion system, to stop excessive players from becoming too powerful, so they do already see that they need limiting.

If they allow people playing for the sort of timescales he has been, to be rewarded on the same reward pet hour scale as someone that plays a more reasonable ammount, they risk loosing income from the more reasonable players.

All players pay the same, but if you allow players to build up an unassailable advantage, your game becomes niche, with only players of that sort paying.

I agree, there has to be a limit. Otherwise a small handful of players will be Gods in PvP and everyone else will be cannon fodder.

TehMagnus · October 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

600 hours is nothing. Many people have more than 1K and don't care about this. As long as you get the same ratio as everybody else who cares? If you decided to "waste" 600 hours of your free time in a game, you can only blame yourself for your poor decisions.

I hope that the gain is indeed caped as ZOS suggested so that you end up being a mad boi.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

All I have to say is... I have a main that I've put 600 hours into (vr14) with 13,000 achievement points (ALL quests in the game completed), and an alt (vr14) with about 2000 achievement points (only main Caldwell quests and story quests).

If I end up getting the same amount of CP as someone who just grinded to VR14 on one character and only has 2000 achievement points...

I fully expect to get the full VR14 amount of CP on my alt, and at LEAST 6.5 times that much for my main.

That is to say: if I don't end up getting 7.5 times the amount of CP being awarded to someone who bought the game yesterday and grinds out VR14 ok one character, I will be taking my measly $15 a month elsewhere. And I'm sure plenty of other people will follow suit.

Do not f*** us on this ZOS.

We can deal with shoddy programming, lag, bugs, imbalance and the litany of other problems, but I'm sure your player base will not stick around if they feel that you f*** them over after they've spent 600+ hours dealing with all your other problems just to have to bend over and get screwed out of 500 hours of their free time.

600 hours is nothing. Many people have more than 1K and don't care about this. As long as you get the same ratio as everybody else who cares? If you decided to "waste" 600 hours of your free time in a game, you can only blame yourself for your poor decisions.

I hope that the gain is indeed caped as ZOS suggested so that you end up being a mad boi.

If you're not going to bring anything constructive to the conversation, take yourself elsewhere, pal.

Go try to be a firestarter in someone else's thread.

ferzalrwb17_ESO · October 2014

ZOS won't give details because they've proven so incapable of coding simple stuff properly that they simply won't know themselves what will happen until they roll the die.

So there's no point them stating what they intend. It'll never happen that way. Like all their other code it'll be a reasonably random outcome and you get what you get. Your guess is as good as theirs.

And, yes, many people will likely get screwed and they'll never address it. Just get that into your head before this update and all the others after it and you won't be disappointed. Leave now if the prospect of getting shafted for all the extra time you spent exploring etc compared to grinders bothers you.

bellanca6561n · October 2014

That's what happens when threads like this go unanswered: they go negative, alas.

What concerns me more as the clock ticks down on my first six month subscription and I have the second one queued, is not how they calculate player levels but, rather, what players are supposed to do with them.

Never got to VR10. Started with friends on the NA server who left the game. Live in the EU but didn't want to start over. Thus I relied on quests for the bulk of my play.

But I couldn't do all the quests. Some, like that one to become the Mad Max Thunderdome arena champion, didn't fit my character. Others, like cutting the heart out of a black girl - they had to pick a black woman - and stick it in a bowl on an altar were.....disturbing.

But, this "play your way" game denies you levels, it denies you dyes, it denies you all sorts of things little or small unless you play the game EXACTLY the way they want you to so that they get the maximum value for the content they paid to create.

This is what I am hoping will change. I want to see more content of the sort that sold many of us on the game. I want to see more ways of playing that content. I want to see styles of content none of us have ever seen in an online game - a bit of innovation. Meaning I want to see more play styles supported other than I Kill, Therefore I Am.

GreyBrow · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.

What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.

Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.

For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.

Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%

Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.

What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.

If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.

My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.

By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.

After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.

Guppet · October 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.

What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.

Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.

For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.

Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%

Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.

What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.

If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.

My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.

By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.

After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.

I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?

What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?

I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.

You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.

I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.

There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.

You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote

Merlin13KAGL · October 2014

Almost Everyone's looking for an Official Answer to this question and getting miffed because ZoS doesn't jump on it?

Problem is, they don't need to. This question as has already been addressed and answered by ZoS elsewhere.

See the link above or half a dozen discussions about converting from Vet points back to XP's.

The number has continued to go up, again - in the background, since day one. I suspect the level cap is simply a check to see that you are above the max required points. Nothing is displayed beyond that - doesn't mean they don't continue to accumulate.

Do you not think they would want to monitor this in the background for their own purposes even if it had nothing to do with the Champion System? Trending where people go, what people do?

Do you not think there are massive heuristics running in the background so they can help determine where/how to develop next?

XP's are XP's. Whether earned via grinding or exploration, the more you have, the more points you'll have. The fact that they are earned in unequivalent ways at unequivalent rates will be no different with CP's as it is with XP's.

Limit someone's method to level or their rate and people will complain. It's unbalanced that way now - it will be unbalanced for the same reasons then.

Is it going to make everyone happy with the translation? Of course not - that's simply not possible.

lordspyder · October 2014

So I think I may be wrong about what's being asked here, but if you are asking if you will get back credited for the discovery XP that you missed when you were VR1-14, why doesn't someone with a VR1-13 character on the PTS go over there, fire it up and see what happens? You might not know exactly where you got the XP but you should get a fair idea...

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Guppet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.

What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.

Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.

For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.

Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%

Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.

What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.

If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.

My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.

By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.

After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.

I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?

What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?

I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.

You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.

I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.

There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.

You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote

You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.

There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Almost Everyone's looking for an Official Answer to this question and getting miffed because ZoS doesn't jump on it?

Problem is, they don't need to. This question as has already been addressed and answered by ZoS elsewhere.

See the link above or half a dozen discussions about converting from Vet points back to XP's.

The number has continued to go up, again - in the background, since day one. I suspect the level cap is simply a check to see that you are above the max required points. Nothing is displayed beyond that - doesn't mean they don't continue to accumulate.

Do you not think they would want to monitor this in the background for their own purposes even if it had nothing to do with the Champion System? Trending where people go, what people do?

Do you not think there are massive heuristics running in the background so they can help determine where/how to develop next?

XP's are XP's. Whether earned via grinding or exploration, the more you have, the more points you'll have. The fact that they are earned in unequivalent ways at unequivalent rates will be no different with CP's as it is with XP's.

Limit someone's method to level or their rate and people will complain. It's unbalanced that way now - it will be unbalanced for the same reasons then.

Is it going to make everyone happy with the translation? Of course not - that's simply not possible.

Oh without a doubt that's (hopefully) whats going on in the background.

My question, however, is not just whether we will be getting credit for what we do (obviously if they're hoping to keep subscribers they will give us the credit we deserve once the Champion system is fully available) but also when we'll be receiving that credit.

If the question is so easily answered, why hasn't one of them taken the moment to put our minds at ease?

The fact that they haven't is the most disturbing point of this whole thread.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

lordspyder wrote: »

So I think I may be wrong about what's being asked here, but if you are asking if you will get back credited for the discovery XP that you missed when you were VR1-14, why doesn't someone with a VR1-13 character on the PTS go over there, fire it up and see what happens? You might not know exactly where you got the XP but you should get a fair idea...

I tried it, the character was the same level as the day they copied it. No change. Which does not bode well.

Guppet · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

GreyBrow wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Why shouldn't he have 7.5x more(TO START WITH) than some knucklehead that ground out to V14 as fast as possible and skipped a bunch of content?

He's been playing longer than that individual AND he's been PAYING longer than that individual.

To my understanding, there is a max in the Champion system that can be attained by everybody and, inevitably, some people will reach that max before others.

This individual is a PRIME example of one of those people.

He's not asking to have a permanent advantage over new players, he just wants to be justly rewarded for the time he put in.

Thank you for seeing reason... Far too many people on this forum fail to listen to reason.

What you said is exactly right... I'm not asking for ANY advantage. Doing 250
Dolmens and doing EVERY quest and every dungeon (several times), etc. etc., to get all those achievements meant that I was earning XP for every mob I killed. So yes, achievements ~ XP. I have done none of the fishing. (Never will). And 600 hours is nothing compared to some of my guildies and friends.

Getting 7x the champion points, as I understand it, would NOT in fact make me 7x more powerful, as the passive increases are logarithmic... Which is to say inversely exponential.

For those of you who don't understand calculus and how limits work, what this means is that although I would start with 7x your CP, I would not get 7x the benefit. And as time went on, even if we earned CP at the same rate, our stats would approach the same value if we both spent CP identically.

Consider this potential example for a Magicka Passive:
Rank 1: increase max magicka by 5%
Rank 2: " " by 7.5%
Rank 3: " " by 8.75%
Rank 4: " " by 9.375%
Rank 5: " " by 9.6875%

Since, by my understanding, the champion point system will require 1 point in each of the Mage, warrior, and thief trees before you are able to put a 2nd point into the Mage, what this means is that EVEN IF I were to receive 9x the amount of CP at launch of the champion system, I would be only marginally more powerful than you.

What you clearly don't understand is that the champion point system is slated to introduce something like 2100 hours of additional character development. If you're whining about the difference between my 600 hours and your 100 hours, you're gonna have a really hard time 1 year down the road when there's a guy with all 2100 champion points.

If you're whining about someone who put 600 hours into a game not deserving 6 times the credit of someone who put in 100 hours, why don't you go get a job out in the real world at Burger King and then try complaining to your boss that the guy who worked 500 hours more than you has a car that's worth 6x more than yours. Seriously kid.

My main concern (and probably a lot of other loyal paying customers) is that they only recently started tracking post level cap XP. I did A LOT when VR10 was max rank, and also did A LOT when VR12 was max rank... And knowing zeni, they're so bad at planning and so ill prepared that they've only begun tracking post VR14 experience... When in reality, the post VR14 gameplay leaves very little experience to be had if you've played since launch.

By rights, if they had been tracking post level cap XP, when VR12 was introduced, I should have logged on to find my character instantly VR12, as should have many, many, other people.

After seeing this post actively ignored by the Devs (don't be fooled, they've definitely seen this thread), my eyes are being opened and I'm seeing VR12, VR14 and the champion system for the asinine device they really are: carrots on sticks, and we're the horses leading them to market.

I hear everything you say, but your missing the point. They said there will be a cap, do you actually believe that you will be under this cap, given your massive investment of time?

What do you think the cap should be? 40+ hours a week, 50+, 60+, what do you believe you should be rewarded for?

I know there is no direct correlation between hours a week and XP, but it gives an indication of investment.

You have 25 hours a week (approx.) just for your main. You say there are others in your guild with much higher played time. Just how much played time a week do you think is reasonable to expect to be uncapped when this system is implemented.

I get the feeling you would rather no cap at all and we know that wont be happening.

There have been various polls on here to find the average age and its coming out at about early to mid thirties. At that sort of age people should mostly have full time jobs, partners, kids, you know real responsibilities. They need to balance the game around people with those responsibilities and not people who can put in more hours than the rest of us work for.

You also used multiple paragraphs, explaining what we all should already understand about diminishing returns. Anyone that does not understand diminishing returns, will not be bothered to read what you wrote

You're right, they did say there would be a cap, but they never specified on what that cap would be.

There's obviously going to be a cap on the max about of progression the Champion System allows, that's clear. But will there also be a cap on how fast and how much you earn at a given time? I don't recall reading anything that would indicate this being the case.

They said the cap will be on the initial amount of champ points that you will be able to receive at the time of the conversion. I don't think there will be any cap on what you can earn after that (personally I think there should, but the devs have not mentioned it).

They said that the vast majority wont hit that cap. I think you play way more than the vast majority, so you will probably be affected by it. Those in your guild with vastly more hours even more so.

Honestly they need to come out and say what it will be, so people like yourself can know your probably at the cap, there's no point in you grinding anything till its out, so just play for fun. They will never do that though and it will anger people that are above the cap when it happens.

All we can do is look at how much we play and be realistic, on whether we think we play more than most other players. If we play much more than the average, we need to understand there is a good chance we will be capped and not rage that we demand 100% of all xp earned, like your first post suggested.

WraithAzraiel · October 2014

Then what the hell will happen to XP beyond the cap initially? If it just disappears, I'm going to be livid. If it's put into escrow and released incrementally, decidedly less so.

They better approach this in a way that doesn't screw their players for the time in which they put.

Guppet · October 2014

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Almost Everyone's looking for an Official Answer to this question and getting miffed because ZoS doesn't jump on it?

Problem is, they don't need to. This question as has already been addressed and answered by ZoS elsewhere.

See the link above or half a dozen discussions about converting from Vet points back to XP's.

The number has continued to go up, again - in the background, since day one. I suspect the level cap is simply a check to see that you are above the max required points. Nothing is displayed beyond that - doesn't mean they don't continue to accumulate.

Do you not think they would want to monitor this in the background for their own purposes even if it had nothing to do with the Champion System? Trending where people go, what people do?

Do you not think there are massive heuristics running in the background so they can help determine where/how to develop next?

XP's are XP's. Whether earned via grinding or exploration, the more you have, the more points you'll have. The fact that they are earned in unequivalent ways at unequivalent rates will be no different with CP's as it is with XP's.

Limit someone's method to level or their rate and people will complain. It's unbalanced that way now - it will be unbalanced for the same reasons then.

Is it going to make everyone happy with the translation? Of course not - that's simply not possible.

Oh without a doubt that's (hopefully) whats going on in the background.

My question, however, is not just whether we will be getting credit for what we do (obviously if they're hoping to keep subscribers they will give us the credit we deserve once the Champion system is fully available) but also when we'll be receiving that credit.

If the question is so easily answered, why hasn't one of them taken the moment to put our minds at ease?

The fact that they haven't is the most disturbing point of this whole thread.

Its going to be interesting when they change over, no doubt about it. Most on the PTS transferred over at max level, so they cant really check percentages, so its all going to be unknown.

If they truly do give you all the xp you have earnt from the start, then that's going to be like Christmas for many players.

The mapping is changing, so if they place you on that mapping where you actual earnt xp should place you, it could be much higher than where you currently stand for VR level, especially if you have spent ages grinding weapon skill on Coldharbour Zombies.

I cant transfer over as im EU, so a second class citizen