Shunravi wrote: »

And an actual sparing match

http://youtu.be/bmP1MgfEUmY

Take note of how the attack/defense counterplay works, also how fast they are moving those things. An attack immediately turns into a parry, a block, in a series of attacks and counter attacks. Also the match is over in one good contact strike... So... Yay realism!

Talking about realism, those may just be the flimsiest lightest weight 2h swords I've ever seen. While I realise that's probably neccessary to avoid actually hurting your opponent, it throws significant doubt on the "realism" argument of how fast they can move them.

a.k.a. lol.

GnatB wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

And an actual sparing match

http://youtu.be/bmP1MgfEUmY

Take note of how the attack/defense counterplay works, also how fast they are moving those things. An attack immediately turns into a parry, a block, in a series of attacks and counter attacks. Also the match is over in one good contact strike... So... Yay realism!

Talking about realism, those may just be the flimsiest lightest weight 2h swords I've ever seen. While I realise that's probably neccessary to avoid actually hurting your opponent, it throws significant doubt on the "realism" argument of how fast they can move them.

a.k.a. lol.

i googled "medieval two handed swords" and this is what i came up with in the pictures

all the swords are really thin, the reason behind this was extremely simple; it already took half a lifetime + to master sword techniques if the sword were to be as thick and large as say... the Bosmer sword in game, then no man/woman would actually be able to wield it w/o first being a professional weight lifter.

sword play is all about jabs, blocks and parries, the big, slow swings were actually pole-arm type weapons, usually with a hammer/mace/flail or sickle/blade at the end. and they were usually wielded by abnormally large fellows.

now, all of what we are thinking of here are the European styled swords.. i ask you, what of the most powerful 2h sword in the world: the Katana? the blade was long, sleek, slender and extremely lightweight, in fact the most prized katanas were able to actually BEND.

having this information now, we can see that "animation cancelling IRL" is a norm.

maybe all of you who are so against things that are pretty run of the mill in most video games should go and do some research before coming onto the forums and showing us how ignorant you are.

because knowing is half the battle

Its fascinating that even though zos says it not cheating, this many people are so full of themselves they think their opinion can change a fact. Its not cheating, because they said it is not, its their game and they make the ruling. If you think otherwise stop forming opinions out your ass and become informed.

Aeratus wrote: »

maybe all of you who are so against things that are pretty run of the mill in most video games should go and do some research before coming onto the forums and showing us how ignorant you are.

Here's an example of animation canceling dating all the way to 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qdyhRmSFmc

hahaha awesome, tyvm bro great stuff

GnatB wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

And an actual sparing match

http://youtu.be/bmP1MgfEUmY

Take note of how the attack/defense counterplay works, also how fast they are moving those things. An attack immediately turns into a parry, a block, in a series of attacks and counter attacks. Also the match is over in one good contact strike... So... Yay realism!

Talking about realism, those may just be the flimsiest lightest weight 2h swords I've ever seen. While I realise that's probably neccessary to avoid actually hurting your opponent, it throws significant doubt on the "realism" argument of how fast they can move them.

a.k.a. lol.

i googled "medieval two handed swords" and this is what i came up with in the pictures

all the swords are really thin, the reason behind this was extremely simple; it already took half a lifetime + to master sword techniques if the sword were to be as thick and large as say... the Bosmer sword in game, then no man/woman would actually be able to wield it w/o first being a professional weight lifter.

sword play is all about jabs, blocks and parries, the big, slow swings were actually pole-arm type weapons, usually with a hammer/mace/flail or sickle/blade at the end. and they were usually wielded by abnormally large fellows.

now, all of what we are thinking of here are the European styled swords.. i ask you, what of the most powerful 2h sword in the world: the Katana? the blade was long, sleek, slender and extremely lightweight, in fact the most prized katanas were able to actually BEND.

having this information now, we can see that "animation cancelling IRL" is a norm.

maybe all of you who are so against things that are pretty run of the mill in most video games should go and do some research before coming onto the forums and showing us how ignorant you are.

because knowing is half the battle

I actually *own* some medieval style two handed swords. They're surprisngly hard to manuever unless you ARE quite strong. You are *not* going to be wielding them the way it's shown in those videos at those speeds. I also own some katanas. And you're right, they're far lighter. You probably could wield those that way.

That said, yeah. Attacks in ESO are, in general, too slow and exagerrated. Which is probably the real issue. I'd also have to point out that, in the video, while the movement from attack to parry may be fluid, they do not (successfully) abort attacks to defend. Largely because, barring a dodge, there isn't much need. (and in that case, which looks like it happens once, the attacker is pretty much skewered.) The defender can't initiate an attack because he's defending. And (barring a dodge, which is quite rare) the defense will negate most of the attacks momentum.

Which I guess is part of the problem, all the attacks in ESO are "misses". Only real exception is blocked heavy attacks.

p.s. the swords in ESO are pretty much European styled, so katana discussion is pretty irrelevant.

Yes, indeed. I also *own* historical styled swords, and I agree, it takes a good deal of strength, experience, and endurance to be able to wield them in anything close to what you see in the videos (and I can. And as this is a tournament video between experienced people, so can they.). The swords they use in the sparing video do appear to be lighter than *some* the swords I own , but they are also of different dimensions. Some of my European swords weigh around the same weight as my Katana, one weighs less. (If you pay attention, you can see that they use different sizes and weights of swords. The ones that are bigger do swing a bit slower.)

The videos are more to describe the concept of a parry as a method of stopping an attack mid-swing to turn it into a block, as per the initial post I replied to. And as you point out, there isn't much need to actually fully abort an attack. But in actual fighting, you don't actually fully stop an attack (animation) like what animation canceling does in-game. Real fighting incorporates attacking and defending all at once, as the mere act of holding your weapon out is both aggressive and defensive. What happens from there is merely a matter of degree. In game you set priority for attacks, not counter-play as irl.

And the defender can indeed counter-attack. There are several instances in the video where the defender scores the point with a counter.

But, again, to what i understand as your main point; the animations are a bit... clunky. And as each attack in ESO is essentially regarded as separate from the others, there is no real flow to the battle like you would have with real fighting.

PS. I would also like to point out that many swords that you can acquire are actually heavier that what a sword would historically weigh. there is a certain bias on the part of both the manufacturer and the consumer in regards to this. people expect them to be heavy. I own a few replicas that are certainly over-weighted, and it would certainly be most difficult to maneuver them in this fashion. (They also have terrible balance.)

(EDIT for clarity, because I wrote a terrible description of the mechanics... and it still sucks)

It's funny how after reading through the thread I've come to the realization that most of the yes's and some of the no's have no clue how animation canceling works in this game. It's a priority system, it's for your benefit, do yourself a favor and learn it.

Shunravi wrote: »

They are not using the large reckless swings we see so often in videogames.

In ESO at least, it's so sad to see beautiful European style attacks in games like Age of Conan and Witcher and then derp derp derp derp deeeeerp animation swings in ESO.

I'd be using a 2 hander if they didn't look so awful and "meat head" like.

.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

They are not using the large reckless swings we see so often in videogames.

In ESO at least, it's so sad to see beautiful European style attacks in games like Age of Conan and Witcher and then derp derp derp derp deeeeerp animation swings in ESO.

I'd be using a 2 hander if they didn't look so awful and "meat head" like.

Ikr? The weapon I started the game with, and used to solo level to v12, was my 2h. I miss it. But the animation style... It's rather disappointing.

I think my biggest problem is how the swings are left so open. They are completely uncontrolled, and unskilled. Though, with the size of the weapons, I'm not sure if I can really blame my char...

It's only cheating if only a select few can do it. But if everyone can do it - no.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

a.k.a. lol.

It's perfectly accurate, a real sword will bend. If they didn't, they would snap at the first sign of real pressure.

They also don't weight a ton, they were made to cut, kill and do it fast. Even two handers.

If you had to "lug" the thing around just to swing it, you'd end up dead.

Sure, they bend (some) but real 2h swords don't flop around like a fencing foil even when they aren't hitting things.

Oh, and yes. Fighting games. At least on most modern ones, there's a handful of "cancellable" moves. The vast majority of them can't be. And at least in all the fighting games I've played within the last decade, a cancelled move gets cancelled before it actually would hit, and doesn't actually do any damage. So not exactly comparable to what's going on here.

GnatB wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

a.k.a. lol.

It's perfectly accurate, a real sword will bend. If they didn't, they would snap at the first sign of real pressure.

They also don't weight a ton, they were made to cut, kill and do it fast. Even two handers.

If you had to "lug" the thing around just to swing it, you'd end up dead.

Sure, they bend (some) but real 2h swords don't flop around like a fencing foil even when they aren't hitting things.

It makes no difference in reference to the original point made that techniques with these swords would be different with a "real sword", I didn't really address that properly with my point so I'll clarify.

These swords are more flexible because it reduces the effectiveness of the thrust and cut, but that's it and in some cases some swords are very flexible while others very rigid (such as a real rapier which were very very stiff and not at all flexible as you often see them represented and again for fencing they are made flexible to remove the effectiveness of the thrust). Point being, most swords weight around 2.5 lbs, and the flex of the blade won't change that so any argument that those videos are invalid isn't correct at all.

People tend to forget there are variations of:

• As intended vs unintended outcome/use - translated by defenders as "Creative Gameplay"
  (Robbing a bank before it was listed as illegal was also considered 'Creative Financing.')
• Unintended / "exploit" / allowed - tolerated action / we haven't fixed it yet
• Overall effect on the player base - which directly translates into Sub $ (or lack thereof) - so Politics are involved here, too.
  Basically, does it hurt us (ESO) more if we fix it, ban it, or tolerate it.
• Cost in time, $, and priority to 'fix' what's 'not broken'
• The justification that someone important/official says "It's ok," or at least doesn't say "It's not ok." makes it so.
• To be fair to those using it still, anything not working as intended or being used as anticipated should ultimately be corrected in code, and then there is no grey area to dispute.
  

Because you can do it (whatever it is) doesn't make it right.
Because they haven't corrected/changed the functionality doesn't make it not wrong.

If you're over the age of 12 with an IQ in the double digits, at least, you know the difference without anyone needing to tell you.

Working as intended, yes.

Being used as intended... See above.

Cooldowns, if intended to be there, should be there. If they're not intended to be cooldowns (instant cast, fine, but animation introduced delay before next normal fire) then there should not have to be anything to cancel.

Jacked up as it is, I can see it both ways.

Whether it's supposed to be there or not, they should have the code reflect the gameplay allowances they intend.

Basically this:

Rune_Relic wrote: »

the animation and attack rate should be matched anyway.
So if ZOS do it right animation cancelling shouldnt be possible anyway.
They are in the process of fixing this judging from the summit notes.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

a.k.a. lol.

It's perfectly accurate, a real sword will bend. If they didn't, they would snap at the first sign of real pressure.

They also don't weight a ton, they were made to cut, kill and do it fast. Even two handers.

If you had to "lug" the thing around just to swing it, you'd end up dead.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

I have to disagree with this, actually. There are lots of action games where once you initiate an attack you're locked into finishing it, and can't just abort the attack to defend. I'd argue it tends to make the games more strategic. You have to look for an opening long enough to attack, you can't just initiate an attack whenever and abort it if you guessed wrong.

This is fair enough.

I've played games like this as well, but I personally find them to be a bit less dynamic because of being "stuck" in certain animations and being unable to either capitalize or defend during quickly changing situations.

If we can consider realism (I know I know....don't hate me)
If you swing a 2 hand sword the momentum means you are committed to following through. Inertia if you will.

You cant just instantly stop midswing and turn it into a block.

So yes....being unable to cancel and attack isn't unreasonable to me.
Provided ...animation time = cooldown time.
Then I know exactly when I can start the next action.
Animation cancelling is meaningless in such a context.

You could argue it will add more feel to combat.
Chaining one attack after another...rather than the disjointed scene cut we get now.
Some attacks should be fast...some powerful ones should be slow....upto you how you sequence them and how much commitement/risk you want to take.

Well... If you really want to talk realism
Yes, yes you can turn a swing into a block. And quite easily too.

Here is a video of irl longsword techniques from practitioners of HEMA (historical European martial arts)
http://youtu.be/ln94E9AGYTc

And an actual sparing match

http://youtu.be/bmP1MgfEUmY

Take note of how the attack/defense counterplay works, also how fast they are moving those things. An attack immediately turns into a parry, a block, in a series of attacks and counter attacks. Also the match is over in one good contact strike... So... Yay realism!

They are not using the large reckless swings we see so often in videogames.

http://youtu.be/h4WQCU7d17c

You will note, that while those large swings certainly were threatening, the spear guy simply had to wait for an opening to counterattack. Which is exactly why you dont fight this way.

And here's dual wield;
http://youtu.be/mPZBWq4zans

I gave you an awesome for that as its deserved it.
However, you cant work against the laws of physics and inertia.
1. Some stances attacks and parrys can not be chained because you rely on completely changing the inertia and vector of the mass (sword).
2. Those stances/attacks/parrys that actually do make use of the existing vector and inertia can be chained exceptionally well...as shown on some of the videos.

You are arguing point 2 which is fair and I concede.
I am arguing point 1....the video game angle as you stated above.
[you aren't going to spin around with a sword and then suddenly go the opposite direction without first slowing down...stopping...accelerating in the other direction]
ie some times you can use the inertia for advantage...sometimes you cant.

To me a weapons expert is a master of inertia and a dance to behold.
Speaking of videos lol....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4puUo4OYViE

Very good point.

1 is the reason I used longswords as an example, as you can see the swing highlighted more clearly. You don't want to make those moves that require such drastic changes in inertia, unless you can be sure that your target will absorb some of that energy. (The point of the third video.) Which brings us to 2.

As was stated in another reply, every hit in the game is a miss (animation wise). Except for a blocked heavy attack. Which is why we don't have actual counterplay like we have irl. And I imagine that this is why many find melee clunky.

Now, as to the point of changing the inertia. That is the reason a balanced sword I so important. And this can be easily seen in the difference in swing between a sword and an axe (which is always annoying when they make the animation similar). An axe has most of its mass at the end, the point of balance is near the head. On a sword, you want the mass to be centered around a middle point, near the hilt. The point of balance acts like a fulcrum for the inertia and the force you counter it with. The closer the balance is to where you are holding the weapon, the faster it is to maneuver and the less force it has on impact.

Along that same vein though, you don't block while using an axe by bringing the head back up, you use the haft and butt as they are more maneuverable.

But I think both our points can be summed up by this axefighting video. The axe has to be kept in constant motion because of how hard it's inertia is to change. http://youtu.be/Ghi6T74BlHA

Then again, with the size of two handers in this game, I'm not surprised that everything swings like an axe.

PS. As to canceling itself, I don't consider it cheating because everyone has the ability to do it. All it does is assign priority to attacks and sets them up to be more efficient in their execution. Also it prevents the fights from being as slow and boring as the sparing in the axe vid. (Which it would be if every attack was forced to follow through to completion.)

I like it, since it is one of the few options in the game to put my spare apm into something useful in an otherwise very slow game. I`m used to play very, very fast. I like to put my apm to good use.

Reiterpallasch wrote: »

There are two kinds of people when it comes to animation cancelling: Those who do it, and liars who say they don't.

Nobody actually sits there and waits for a light/heavy attack animation to complete before hitting their next skill. Nobody. At all. Ever.

You're kind of insulting, you know that?
I DO NOT cancel my animations. I didn't even know it existed till I read about it on the fourms.
I would not find it any fun at all to animation cancel, from what I hear of it.

(Either that or I am and just not realizing it )