Animation Canceling, Attack Weaving, is it cheating?

butterfly442

Let us know how you feel.

Soulshine

No

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

butterfly442

Yes

This poll asks your OPINION.

Aeratus

No

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

heyguyslol

Yes

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

I find it really funny what ZOS say's is an exploit/cheating and what is not. Furthermore they are known for saying a specific mechanic in the game is legal and later have turned around and said no that is an exploit. This company is so contradicting that you really can't take anything they say seriously. So with that in mind if u can do it, then do it cuz chances are other players are going to use it against u if u dont.

The reason I voted "Yes" is because there are some players who have a better connection to the server than others and pulling off animation canceling requires very low latency. Under normal conditions I can pull it off but most of the time there is just to much lagg that no matter how good I am at it I can't pull it off but if I'm fighting another player who lives closer to the server and has a better connection can use this and have a big advantage over me. So basically it comes down to two things learning how to properly do animation canceling and having the right internet connection/latency to pull it off. If server connectivity was not an issue I would have voted "No". Hence this is why most mmo's have global cool downs on every action possible in an mmo like this.

I remember back in the old UO days we had the same issues. If you had a solid connection to your home server you had a huge advantage over others who had average or slow connections. Most game devs picked up on this problem and incorporated the global cool downs to level the playing field regardless of your internet speed/latency.

Gilvoth

I don't care. Stuff dies, and I look pro.

i have never used animation canceling. and i dont have any macro program iether.
i just click and play normal like everyone else. as it should be.

Sykotical

Yes

I know the devs have said it's not "cheating," but they really need to change it so you can't do more damage by animation canceling.

• Animation canceling of light attacks should be removed, and you should not be able to stop a light attack mid-swing.
• Animation canceling of heavy attacks should be removed, but you should be able to cancel a charging heavy attack before you swing (particularly useful for bow users in PVE.)
• Animation cancelling of skills should be removed, but you should be able to stop channeled skills to block.
• Any canceled actions should do 0 damage.

Soulshine

No

heyguyslol wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

I find it really funny what ZOS say's is an exploit/cheating and what is not. Furthermore they are known for saying a specific mechanic in the game is legal and later have turned around and said no that is an exploit. This company is so contradicting that you really can't take anything they say seriously. So with that in mind if u can do it, then do it cuz chances are other players are going to use it against u if u dont.

The reason I voted "Yes" is because there are some players who have a better connection to the server than others and pulling off animation canceling requires very low latency. Under normal conditions I can pull it off but most of the time there is just to much lagg that no matter how good I am at it I can't pull it off but if I'm fighting another player who lives closer to the server and has a better connection can use this and have a big advantage over me. So basically it comes down to two things learning how to properly do animation canceling and having the right internet connection/latency to pull it off.

Good grief. Please stop assuming anyone who supports using light attacks in combat is doing it to exploit them.

Light attacks are a simple means of resource management and a healthy part of a regular given rotation; if all you do is spam class or weapon skills ad nauseum you will not get very far very long. Light attacks are an effective tool and that is why they do not cost resources and are meant to be used, as ZoS has pointed out.

Rodario

It's not cheating but it should be removed. Yes, blocking should still abort animations but the effects shouldn't go through.

butterfly442

Yes

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

So, gaining more attacks, a lot more attacks, than are intended is the right thing to do.

Also, people who use any attack that does not animation cancel are actually hurting themselves.

In fact, it would be considered 'stupid' to actually use anything else.

So the game 'intentionally' has tons of skills that are useless because you are not legally killing things in seconds with uber pro weaving/canceling.

Quoting Zenimax is not the brightest thing to do. If you have been around since beta, you will know they are less than stellar with their decisions.

Example: Banning thousands of people for no reason and forcing them to prove they didn't do whatever it was they were banned for. No reason were given, so there was no way to defend against it. Brilliant marketing scam if you ask me.

heyguyslol

Yes

Soulshine wrote: »

heyguyslol wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

I find it really funny what ZOS say's is an exploit/cheating and what is not. Furthermore they are known for saying a specific mechanic in the game is legal and later have turned around and said no that is an exploit. This company is so contradicting that you really can't take anything they say seriously. So with that in mind if u can do it, then do it cuz chances are other players are going to use it against u if u dont.

The reason I voted "Yes" is because there are some players who have a better connection to the server than others and pulling off animation canceling requires very low latency. Under normal conditions I can pull it off but most of the time there is just to much lagg that no matter how good I am at it I can't pull it off but if I'm fighting another player who lives closer to the server and has a better connection can use this and have a big advantage over me. So basically it comes down to two things learning how to properly do animation canceling and having the right internet connection/latency to pull it off.

Good grief. Please stop assuming anyone who supports using light attacks in combat is doing it to exploit them.

Light attacks are a simple means of resource management and a healthy part of a regular given rotation; if all you do is spam class or weapon skills ad nauseum you will not get very far very long. Light attacks are an effective tool and that is why they do not cost resources and are meant to be used, as ZoS has pointed out.

Sorry my post was directed at animation canceling not light attack weaving.

heyguyslol

Yes

butterfly442 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

So, gaining more attacks, a lot more attacks, than are intended is the right thing to do.

Also, people who use any attack that does not animation cancel are actually hurting themselves.

In fact, it would be considered 'stupid' to actually use anything else.

So the game 'intentionally' has tons of skills that are useless because you are not legally killing things in seconds with uber pro weaving/canceling.

Quoting Zenimax is not the brightest thing to do. If you have been around since beta, you will know they are less than stellar with their decisions.

Example: Banning thousands of people for no reason and forcing them to prove they didn't do whatever it was they were banned for. No reason were given, so there was no way to defend against it. Brilliant marketing scam if you ask me.

/agree

Ozriel

Anyone who has played Aion would find this topic quite humorous.. Basically if you could not animation cancel and/or jumpshot/animation cancel, you would not be very competitive in pvp, and in fact the forum has a few threads advising people how to do the action/s..

Gilvoth

I don't care. Stuff dies, and I look pro.

i dont even know how to do animation canceling, i just use the skills as intended by clicking on the skill number and try my best. i get lucky sometimes and win fights in pvp.
i hate it that people cheat and make it bad for others.

heyguyslol

Yes

We also have to remember that most mmo's have multiple servers at various locations throughout the US but with ESO using a single location & server (US Server) this makes optimizing your connection speed impossible. So any player/players that connect to the US server with less hops is generally going to have a much better connection thus allowing them to utilize things like animation canceling with less chance of failure as opposed to someone who lives many states away.

In all honesty I think the only reason Zos says animation canceling is legal is because they have no idea how to stop it even if they wanted to. I've seen this happen many times with other mechanics they could not fix but later found a way so they went back on their word and said yes this is an exploit and we are fixing it. Night Silence & Stalker nerf, cough cough...

You guys really need to stop taking Zos so seriously, this company is a joke to say the least and probably the worst in the industry I have experienced.

butterfly442

Yes

Soulshine wrote: »

heyguyslol wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

I find it really funny what ZOS say's is an exploit/cheating and what is not. Furthermore they are known for saying a specific mechanic in the game is legal and later have turned around and said no that is an exploit. This company is so contradicting that you really can't take anything they say seriously. So with that in mind if u can do it, then do it cuz chances are other players are going to use it against u if u dont.

The reason I voted "Yes" is because there are some players who have a better connection to the server than others and pulling off animation canceling requires very low latency. Under normal conditions I can pull it off but most of the time there is just to much lagg that no matter how good I am at it I can't pull it off but if I'm fighting another player who lives closer to the server and has a better connection can use this and have a big advantage over me. So basically it comes down to two things learning how to properly do animation canceling and having the right internet connection/latency to pull it off.

Good grief. Please stop assuming anyone who supports using light attacks in combat is doing it to exploit them.

Light attacks are a simple means of resource management and a healthy part of a regular given rotation; if all you do is spam class or weapon skills ad nauseum you will not get very far very long. Light attacks are an effective tool and that is why they do not cost resources and are meant to be used, as ZoS has pointed out.

You are right. Light attacks are good.

Using light attacks to cancel the animation, but not the damage of skills, isn't how it is intended.

Otherwise, why use anything else?

butterfly442

Yes

Ozriel wrote: »

Anyone who has played Aion would find this topic quite humorous.. Basically if you could not animation cancel and/or jumpshot/animation cancel, you would not be very competitive in pvp, and in fact the forum has a few threads advising people how to do the action/s..

Haha Aion. They virtually have done away with animation canceling. Just not hacking.

As for jump shotting... you mean when you could jump and mash all your attacks and when you landed you basically lagged a bit as ALL your skills went off at once and killed whatever you shot at save some castle guardians. Yeah, such a cool 'feature'.

Is that what you want here?

ferzalrwb17_ESO

Yes

Of course it is to a degree. It's exploiting a flawed mechanic. But you can't blame anyone, at all, for abusing it manually.

It can not be classed, officially, as cheating because it's a basic, flawed mechanic and you can even do it accidentally. It is NOT working as intended and ZOS want to do something about it but they've been... unable.. to do so to this point.

There's absolutely no way to stop it being exploited by macros (and you know, you just know, that many, many people are doing this). As it's been pointed out it's also more easily exploited by the lowest latency connections. Therefore it gives significant advantage to low-latency and/or macro users.

So it's not a blatant cheat but it's a "soft" exploit, by the dictionary definition of the word, of a flawed mechanic to gain an advantage over those that don't, won't or can't (latency) exploit it.

There is an element of skill doing this manually, by the way, but you can't trust that anyone is. I hate it myself but, admittedly, exploit it more and more as time goes by. I would prefer they just fix it so that everyone is on even ground.

butterfly442

Yes

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Of course it is to a degree. It's exploiting a flawed mechanic. But you can't blame anyone, at all, for abusing it manually.

It can not be classed, officially, as cheating because it's a basic, flawed mechanic and you can even do it accidentally.

If a mechanic is flawed it is a bug. If you totally abuse this bug, its cheating.

Yes, I can blame them for cheating.

But the blame rests on the sorry slumped shoulders of Zenimax. Rather have Blizzard at this point running the game. Think about that.

Soloeus

No

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Search=animation+cancelling

Lots of threads and polls on this already.

heyguyslol

Yes

butterfly442 wrote: »

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Of course it is to a degree. It's exploiting a flawed mechanic. But you can't blame anyone, at all, for abusing it manually.

It can not be classed, officially, as cheating because it's a basic, flawed mechanic and you can even do it accidentally.

If a mechanic is flawed it is a bug. If you totally abuse this bug, its cheating.

Yes, I can blame them for cheating.

But the blame rests on the sorry slumped shoulders of Zenimax. Rather have Blizzard at this point running the game. Think about that.

As much as I can't stand Blizzard I have to agree at least they have competent developers even tho they make very poor design choices.

Aeratus

No

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It can not be classed, officially, as cheating because it's a basic, flawed mechanic and you can even do it accidentally. It is NOT working as intended and ZOS want to do something about it but they've been... unable.. to do so to this point.

ZOS confirmed that it is working as intended. Did you even read the quote from the earlier post? It said that "the way that attacks currently interact is intended."

Furthermore, everyone who has voted "yes" on this poll has used animation cancelling at one point. If you've ever mashed buttons or even attempted to use a skill after a normal attack, then you've done animation cancelling. So go label yourselves as cheaters then, lol.

Sykotical

Yes

Soloeus wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Search=animation+cancelling

Lots of threads and polls on this already.

And we need the devs to know that it is still a problem. Animation canceling is the 'quick scope' of ESO i.e. both are exploits that give advantage over those who don't advocate the use of unnatural methods against other players and somehow the devs have come to support the wrong idea. This cheap *** needs to go.

heyguyslol

Yes

Aeratus wrote: »

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It can not be classed, officially, as cheating because it's a basic, flawed mechanic and you can even do it accidentally. It is NOT working as intended and ZOS want to do something about it but they've been... unable.. to do so to this point.

ZOS confirmed that it is working as intended. Did you even read the quote from the earlier post? It said that "the way that attacks currently interact is intended."

lol, I guess u didnt get the memo but when zos say's something that is in question is working as intended this really means that this is something that no matter how anyone looks at it they have no idea how to fix or stop it so therefore it's working as intended. I think ive gotten past the rage part about my feelings towards zos, now I just like reading all the bs from them just to get a good laugh. Just when I thought I hit rock bottom with Blizzard Entertainment, Zos comes around and takes it's place.

Nicko_Lps

Honestly i have no idea if it should be removed or not cant pick yes or no.

As about me my playing style is always hold block and never leaving it. So anim cancel not my style in most places, i rarely use it. But i do know that block holders are hated in this game more that people do anim canceling

Ruebs

No

Everyone can do it, so.... Who give's a [snip]?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Sunrock

No

Do the OP even know what the word cheating means? FFS how stupid is this thread?

Rodario

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

My theory is ZOS really did not intend for animation cancelling to work this way, but they have no idea how to fix it without breaking something else or causing forther imbalaces, so now they're just rolling with it.

Circuitous

No

Rodario wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

My theory is ZOS really did not intend for animation cancelling to work this way, but they have no idea how to fix it without breaking something else or causing forther imbalaces, so now they're just rolling with it.

This theory is ridiculous. The game has animations that you can't cancel, and animations that you can cancel. The difference between them is a matter of programming, and the decisions involved were intentional. If they wanted to make every skill completely uncancelable, they could do so easily.

Rodario

Circuitous wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

My theory is ZOS really did not intend for animation cancelling to work this way, but they have no idea how to fix it without breaking something else or causing forther imbalaces, so now they're just rolling with it.

This theory is ridiculous. The game has animations that you can't cancel, and animations that you can cancel. The difference between them is a matter of programming, and the decisions involved were intentional. If they wanted to make every skill completely uncancelable, they could do so easily.

When I say "to work this way", what I mean is not the fact you can cancel animations, but that the effect goes through anyway and allows for much higher dps than fighting "normally". I read Jessica's post on the subject and she didn't just say "not exactly intended". It was more along the lines of "this surprised us".

Circuitous

No

Rodario wrote: »

Circuitous wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

No, it's not. End of story.

But since OP apparently isn't familiar with the history behind this issue, here it is:

First, Jessica Folsom wrote months ago that it is "not an exploit," in response to a comment about using animation cancelling to maximize dps.

What confused people was that she also wrote something along the lines of it being "not exactly intended." In context, it was clear to many people that what was "not intended" was the importance of animation cancelling in order to maximize dps, rather than saying that the mechanic itself wasn't intended, but people disagreed on this point.

But to erase all doubt, it's been reported from the guild summit that the mechanic of animation cancelling is "intended"

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

So clearly, a legitimate feature of the game, based on "attack priority" (to use the terminology quoted above.

My theory is ZOS really did not intend for animation cancelling to work this way, but they have no idea how to fix it without breaking something else or causing forther imbalaces, so now they're just rolling with it.

This theory is ridiculous. The game has animations that you can't cancel, and animations that you can cancel. The difference between them is a matter of programming, and the decisions involved were intentional. If they wanted to make every skill completely uncancelable, they could do so easily.

When I say "to work this way", what I mean is not the fact you can cancel animations, but that the effect goes through anyway and allows for much higher dps than fighting "normally". I read Jessica's post on the subject and she didn't just say "not exactly intended". It was more along the lines of "this surprised us".

The effect goes through anyway because the skills are given a cast time of 0/Instant. It's no surprise that they hit instantly when the animation is taken out of the equation. (And of course you can't cancel skills that do have a cast time until that cast time is complete.)

They could give everything a short cast time and voila, but they don't.