Animation Canceling, Attack Weaving, is it cheating?

Sylvyr

Yes

I think it's *** that its "OK" if you don't use a macro, but if you do to avoid getting carpal tunnel from all the mad clicking, it's somehow cheating. Total ROFLMAO. Also as a side note, why is it ok to have one clicks that do multiple things like Wykkyd's outfitter that swaps all your gear? OMG exploit!

Animation cancelling and weaving making your toon look like he/she is having a spasm - really? This is as intended? If so, very lame. And if not intended, very lame cop out and cover up to say it is. And to say you can't macro it to save your hand the pain from "not exploiting" the system that is perfectly OK is rediculous.
-

jelliedsoup

I don't care. Stuff dies, and I look pro.

Sav72 wrote: »

Yes..
I think its BS...

It never stops to amaze me, what people will do to win...at a game..

I find it amazing that some people go onto another alliance's team to spy, plant fcs etc. Who cares enough to do that? Oh yeah, some people.

AssaultLemming

No

Here's the problem. What does a fix actually look like?

Either you can no longer cancel a light attack, so you are forced to wait out the animation, a problem if you have something more important come up such as a need to cast cc annulment or negate and which probably results in you feeling like combat is unresponsive. (Similar to how unresponsive weapon swap feels, I know I already smash my keyboard a fair bit while screaming Change Weapons ffs)

Or, you can cancel out of a light attack but you do no damage, or reduced damage. This is a problem because it makes it difficult to know when you can safely use your skill without nerfing your dps, and it would give macro users even more of an advantage because they would all have perfectly timed skills.

So I am in the camp that thinks this needs a tweak, but it's hard to know what that looks like. Time to stop focusing on the problem and think about solutions though...

butterfly442

Yes

Varicite wrote: »

Uh, ZOS already flat out said that it isn't cheating.

There doesn't seem to be much point to this poll, or the other threads concerning it.

ZOS has already taken an official stance, and considering they are looking at changing Haste (NB skill) in the future so that it's more valuable w/ the existence of animation cancelling, it doesn't look like it's going away.

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

Because of internal cooldowns on abilities / skills / basic attacks, it's not as though animation cancelling will ever increase your dps by a substantial amount. It's already kept in check by these cooldowns.

I feel like people who are against this don't actually understand how the game works. : /

butterfly442 wrote: »

So, gaining more attacks, a lot more attacks, than are intended is the right thing to do.

Like this guy. Clearly has no idea how the mechanics work. Pretty much the norm around here, I guess.

So you quote me and say I have no idea how mechanics work.

I tested it. I see EVERYONE using it in pvp.

Gaining 70% more attacks by using animation canceling is me obviously not knowing how something works.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Varicite

No

butterfly442 wrote: »

Gaining 70% more attacks by using animation canceling is me obviously not knowing how something works.

This right here tells me you either:

A ) Didn't test it at all
B ) Are lying
C ) Are exaggerating
D ) Don't know how to test things
E ) All of the above

But keep going. Tell me, oh guru, exactly how animation cancelling is giving you "70% more attacks" even though all attacks are limited by an internal cooldown?

Obviously your game must use different mechanics than the rest of us, since math clearly says that you are wrong.

/shrug

Maybe this will help you to understand how things actually work, outside of your imaginary testing. Video is slightly outdated, as Bash has since been nerfed and isn't really worth working into a light attack weave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC6KBO_UMpY&feature=youtu.be

You see, while you can get off 2 attacks in rapid succession, you can't actually start a next "weave" until the cooldown for your light attack has finished (1.3 seconds w/out haste).

Because of this 1.3 second cooldown, you are not actually gaining much more over time, and you are most certainly NEVER getting "70% more attacks" from weaving.

I find it strange that people are so quick to anger when they are simply.. wrong.

zbtiqua

No

I don't consider it cheating, but I don't like the idea that cancelling the animation could increase your DPS. If it could be made so that weaving was a natural intended part of combat, and that cancelling an animation would CANCEL the attack, then I think that would be better, IMHO.

tordr86b16_ESO

No

Jroc wrote: »

It's not cheating but it is an exploit. It seems pretty clear that the game wasn't intended to be played that way. That being said I don't see it as being as bad and some have eluded.

ZOS devs has already stated that it is not an exploit. repeating the same line is not going to make this anymore true than believing in santa claus.

GnatB

No

GnatB wrote: »

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

I have to disagree with this, actually. There are lots of action games where once you initiate an attack you're locked into finishing it, and can't just abort the attack to defend. I'd argue it tends to make the games more strategic. You have to look for an opening long enough to attack, you can't just initiate an attack whenever and abort it if you guessed wrong.

Varicite

No

GnatB wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

I have to disagree with this, actually. There are lots of action games where once you initiate an attack you're locked into finishing it, and can't just abort the attack to defend. I'd argue it tends to make the games more strategic. You have to look for an opening long enough to attack, you can't just initiate an attack whenever and abort it if you guessed wrong.

This is fair enough.

I've played games like this as well, but I personally find them to be a bit less dynamic because of being "stuck" in certain animations and being unable to either capitalize or defend during quickly changing situations.

xMovingTarget

No

NordJitsu wrote: »

@xMovingTarget‌

Re-read my post. The answer to your question is contained in the post you quoted.

I dont see it Nord

Tapio75

No

"The horse is rather dead" option is missing.

Skylandra

No

I don't believe its cheating, but I don't love it.

If you could complete the Trials without it (I guess you can for Hel Ra) I wouldn't even care, but in order to achieve the DPS needed for AA I don't see an alternative.

Sadly it makes a gulf between those who can and those who can't/wont use it that no mechanic can overcome. ZoS should not be releasing content forcing players to animation cancel to complete - I see AA as content that forces you to use it.

Mumyo

Yes

Some classes dont have usefull skills to skip so its unfair. Guess dks get the most of it... again...

ozmorgudduth

No

butterfly442 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

heyguyslol wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

I find it really funny what ZOS say's is an exploit/cheating and what is not. Furthermore they are known for saying a specific mechanic in the game is legal and later have turned around and said no that is an exploit. This company is so contradicting that you really can't take anything they say seriously. So with that in mind if u can do it, then do it cuz chances are other players are going to use it against u if u dont.

The reason I voted "Yes" is because there are some players who have a better connection to the server than others and pulling off animation canceling requires very low latency. Under normal conditions I can pull it off but most of the time there is just to much lagg that no matter how good I am at it I can't pull it off but if I'm fighting another player who lives closer to the server and has a better connection can use this and have a big advantage over me. So basically it comes down to two things learning how to properly do animation canceling and having the right internet connection/latency to pull it off.

Good grief. Please stop assuming anyone who supports using light attacks in combat is doing it to exploit them.

Light attacks are a simple means of resource management and a healthy part of a regular given rotation; if all you do is spam class or weapon skills ad nauseum you will not get very far very long. Light attacks are an effective tool and that is why they do not cost resources and are meant to be used, as ZoS has pointed out.

You are right. Light attacks are good.

Using light attacks to cancel the animation, but not the damage of skills, isn't how it is intended.

Otherwise, why use anything else?

You have no clue what you are talking about. Light stack is lower in the priority queue, you don't cancel ability animation with light attack. It's impossible to fix animation cancelling because of the mechanics behind it, get over it people. The game would be completely broken if these mechanics would not be there. The only way to fix it is coldowns on everything and it's not going to happen because it's not wow...

Rune_Relic

No

Varicite wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

I have to disagree with this, actually. There are lots of action games where once you initiate an attack you're locked into finishing it, and can't just abort the attack to defend. I'd argue it tends to make the games more strategic. You have to look for an opening long enough to attack, you can't just initiate an attack whenever and abort it if you guessed wrong.

This is fair enough.

I've played games like this as well, but I personally find them to be a bit less dynamic because of being "stuck" in certain animations and being unable to either capitalize or defend during quickly changing situations.

If we can consider realism (I know I know....don't hate me)
If you swing a 2 hand sword the momentum means you are committed to following through. Inertia if you will.

You cant just instantly stop midswing and turn it into a block.

So yes....being unable to cancel and attack isn't unreasonable to me.
Provided ...animation time = cooldown time.
Then I know exactly when I can start the next action.
Animation cancelling is meaningless in such a context.

You could argue it will add more feel to combat.
Chaining one attack after another...rather than the disjointed scene cut we get now.
Some attacks should be fast...some powerful ones should be slow....upto you how you sequence them and how much commitement/risk you want to take.

xMovingTarget

No

Mumyo wrote: »

Some classes dont have usefull skills to skip so its unfair. Guess dks get the most of it... again...

not really. i can weave with every class efficiently. We play the same game?

Two-Dogs

Yes

Exploit of poorly implemented animation?
Yup.

Is it 'cheating'?
As ZoS has endorsed its use, no.

Did ZoS's designers intend its use?
No. Of course not. You don't harp on about immersion and spend money investing in UI choices that are intended to support immersion and then deliberately plan the animations for your combat system in a way that allows Jimmy the Hero spasm out like an epileptic squirrel chewing on power cables.

Should we put all this tussing and a fussing aside, grab our pitchforks and burn those that use it?
...of course. Fire is always the solution.

Reiterpallasch

No

There are two kinds of people when it comes to animation cancelling: Those who do it, and liars who say they don't.

Nobody actually sits there and waits for a light/heavy attack animation to complete before hitting their next skill. Nobody. At all. Ever.

Gorthax

Yes

Apparently whoever posted this poll didnt read the guild summit....it is cheating. they said it(devs). It is why the new combat mechanics will REMOVE AC/LW. Dead horse, lets move

ozmorgudduth

No

Gorthax wrote: »

Apparently whoever posted this poll didnt read the guild summit....it is cheating. they said it(devs). It is why the new combat mechanics will REMOVE AC/LW. Dead horse, lets move

It is considered cheating by ZOS only when you macro it, otherwise it's just something what happens naturally. I was doing it not even knowing what's it called. When you play long enough your style improves and evolves naturraly and you discover ways to be more and more efficient. What's AC/LW?

Shunravi

No

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

I don't even really understand why people are against it. It's really nothing but a priority system that has to exist in some manner for dynamic combat to occur.

I have to disagree with this, actually. There are lots of action games where once you initiate an attack you're locked into finishing it, and can't just abort the attack to defend. I'd argue it tends to make the games more strategic. You have to look for an opening long enough to attack, you can't just initiate an attack whenever and abort it if you guessed wrong.

This is fair enough.

I've played games like this as well, but I personally find them to be a bit less dynamic because of being "stuck" in certain animations and being unable to either capitalize or defend during quickly changing situations.

If we can consider realism (I know I know....don't hate me)
If you swing a 2 hand sword the momentum means you are committed to following through. Inertia if you will.

You cant just instantly stop midswing and turn it into a block.

So yes....being unable to cancel and attack isn't unreasonable to me.
Provided ...animation time = cooldown time.
Then I know exactly when I can start the next action.
Animation cancelling is meaningless in such a context.

You could argue it will add more feel to combat.
Chaining one attack after another...rather than the disjointed scene cut we get now.
Some attacks should be fast...some powerful ones should be slow....upto you how you sequence them and how much commitement/risk you want to take.

Well... If you really want to talk realism
Yes, yes you can turn a swing into a block. And quite easily too.

Here is a video of irl longsword techniques from practitioners of HEMA (historical European martial arts)
http://youtu.be/ln94E9AGYTc

And an actual sparing match

http://youtu.be/bmP1MgfEUmY

Take note of how the attack/defense counterplay works, also how fast they are moving those things. An attack immediately turns into a parry, a block, in a series of attacks and counter attacks. Also the match is over in one good contact strike... So... Yay realism!

They are not using the large reckless swings we see so often in videogames.

http://youtu.be/h4WQCU7d17c

You will note, that while those large swings certainly were threatening, the spear guy simply had to wait for an opening to counterattack. Which is exactly why you dont fight this way.

And here's dual wield;
http://youtu.be/mPZBWq4zans

Arizona_Willie

I don't do PVP, but if you are getting owned by other PVP'ers ... don't they have a finite number of points to throw spells and abilities with? If they use some sort of animation cancelling ( don't know how to do that myself and haven't seen it as far as I know ) won't they run out of magika and stamina points very fast?

Couldn't you just hold a Block until they run out of points and avoid some / much of the damage they throw at you and then proceed to take them apart when they are helpless?

I realize this is probably a stoopid question ... but it will entertain all those guru's who will jump all over me

I'm still trying to figure out what the QQ and CC's I've seen in posts mean

Varicite

No

Arizona_Willie wrote: »

I don't do PVP, but if you are getting owned by other PVP'ers ... don't they have a finite number of points to throw spells and abilities with? If they use some sort of animation cancelling ( don't know how to do that myself and haven't seen it as far as I know ) won't they run out of magika and stamina points very fast?

Couldn't you just hold a Block until they run out of points and avoid some / much of the damage they throw at you and then proceed to take them apart when they are helpless?

I realize this is probably a stoopid question ... but it will entertain all those guru's who will jump all over me

I'm still trying to figure out what the QQ and CC's I've seen in posts mean

I posted a youtube video above of the mechanics of animation cancelling, if you really want to know how it works.

As for your question about PvP, the answer is yes; using animation cancelling will run you out of resources slightly faster.

Even more of a detriment in PvP is the fact that if you are weaving your attacks, you aren't blocking full time, so you're leaving yourself open to be CC'd.

It's really just not that useful in PvP, except if you have your opponent CC'd or you are 100% certain that they lack the resources to CC you while you're going for the kill.

PS) It's not a stupid question at all, silly. The only way to learn things is to ask. : P

Thechemicals

No

ive been clipping since ninja gaiden and revenge of shinobi....the sega genesis and 8bit nintendo games.

Shunravi

No

Arizona_Willie wrote: »

I don't do PVP, but if you are getting owned by other PVP'ers ... don't they have a finite number of points to throw spells and abilities with? If they use some sort of animation cancelling ( don't know how to do that myself and haven't seen it as far as I know ) won't they run out of magika and stamina points very fast?

Couldn't you just hold a Block until they run out of points and avoid some / much of the damage they throw at you and then proceed to take them apart when they are helpless?

I realize this is probably a stoopid question ... but it will entertain all those guru's who will jump all over me

I'm still trying to figure out what the QQ and CC's I've seen in posts mean

It's not a stupid question at all

In fact, I would say it's a very good question. As @Varicite‌ said, the only way to learn things is to ask.

Keeping estimates of an opponent's resources is a key factor in determining your counterplay options. If the opponent is weaving, then he is both burning his resources quickly and not blocking. If he does not have imoveable up, then it's a perfect time to cc. If he does, outlast the damage and wait for an opening. (Very general tactic, but a decent baseline.)

Azarul

Yes

I voted yes just because ZoS said it is with a macro. Can anyone tell for sure if one is using a macro or not? Can the devs if they look into it? I don't know the answer to these questions, but if the answer is no, no one can tell, then yes I say it is cheating.

purple-magicb16_ESO

No

No. If eso combat is fast and furious and places high demands on the players then the game has to support this both in theory (allowing players to do things like this) and in execution (ie on the technical side). Nothing worse than losing a battle due to lag or simply not being able to respond in time to defend due to restrictions the game places on you. These things have nothing to do with your skill as a player and are essentially beyond your control.

AlexDougherty

No

Soulshine wrote: »

Apparently discussion on this in the other thread is insufficient? It has been stated by ZoS it is not cheating, unless you are deliberately using a macro to make it happen. Not hard to grasp it seems to me.

The role of animation canceling:

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

^^This.
If the devs say it's part of the design, then it's part of the design.

onlinegamer1

No

I have a favor to ask...

Can everyone who answered "Yes" please queue for PvP? I could really use the free APs.

Thanks in advance!

AshySamurai

Yes

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

I have a favor to ask...

Can everyone who answered "Yes" please queue for PvP? I could really use the free APs.

Thanks in advance!

With 2H weapon. Try to use it without AC.