Dark stalker + night silence nerf

Braddass · September 2014

yes

Some of you are acting like this is a NB nerf. It is not. If anything, it is a Vampire nerf.... and that is never a bad thing.

Seriously, I don't think it is a nerf so much as making it clear that it was meant to be a reduction in the stealth penalty, not a way to win the Kentucky derby (without a horse).

GreyPilgrim · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

Some of you are acting like this is a NB nerf. It is not. If anything, it is a Vampire nerf.... and that is never a bad thing.

Seriously, I don't think it is a nerf so much as making it clear that it was meant to be a reduction in the stealth penalty, not a way to win the Kentucky derby (without a horse).

The point is that it disproportionately affects NB's, as we're the class that has the most use for a stealth speed buff.

Yes, every vampire COULD use the Nights silence set to get this major speed burst, and I suspect some use it for travel and trying to catch up with scroll runs, especially since there are macros that allow you to instantly change your whole gear set.

But players taking advantage of macros is a different issue than whether a set is unbalanced. right now, this nerf mostly affects NB's who were finally finding an avenue to turn stealth into an actual advantage for their class, which is what it should be.

So nerfing vampire by nerfing bat swarm? yes please, even as a vamp I know dang well that bat swarm is OP. Or perhaps not nerfing vamp, but providing some alternative to vamp option like 'vigilant of Stendarr' or something, that vamps can't have and that provide nifty bonuses to counter it.

There are a lot of ways to fix the vamp problem, and the NB problems need fixing, and taking away this speed boost makes NB problems WORSE, not better. Until they actually fix NB they could keep this in place.

Samadhi · September 2014

Braddass wrote: »

...
Seriously, I don't think it is a nerf so much as making it clear that it was meant to be a reduction in the stealth penalty, ...

If they change the set bonus to reduce the Sneak speed penalty, instead of increasing Sneak speed, it will be a nerf.

Currently a human character receives an increase of 36% to their speed while Sneaking by wearing this set.

If this bonus is changed to 60% reduction of Sneak speed penalty, instead of its current 60% increase to sneak speed, then the bonus a human character receives from this set will drop to 24% instead of the current 36%.

For human characters, wearing the set already does not make them as fast as a vampire is with just the Dark Stalker passive and no other bonuses.
Changing this set to reduce Sneak speed penalty will further penalize human players with an additional 12% reduction from the current bonus on Live.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · September 2014

no

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

It's great that they didn't bother to actually test the passives and just assumed that you could sneak faster than a horse.

But hey, why actually test the validity of things when you can just listen to the loudest people on the forums.

Ummm, I'm not sure about with just Dark Stalker and the armor sets, but when they are combined with Concealed Weapon you can totally sneak faster than a horse at Gallop. Now, maybe not a horse that has been got its full speed developed, but I outrun a lot of horses with this combo.

And my point is, whoopdeedoo. I eat up stam potions like mad, I still get ganked because everyone can sneak and yer moving so fast that you run smack into gank squads before you can react (though, I do get ganked LESS often, to be sure) and I'm using a 2 trait armor set to get it, so I'm sacrificing to achieve that.

It's not overpowered, and it's not any more 'immersion breaking' than horses that magically appear and dissappear as soon as you call them or dismount.

So yes, I can run faster than a horse, but who cares really other than people who can't stand to see someone who has something they don't?

yea and if a horse has no points in it, I can sprint faster than it to. And sneak faster than it with just dark stalker and concealed weapon (I think)

You know, if they had the decency to fix cloak while they were doing this, or give anything back for nerfing something that had no value outside of being fun, maybe I wouldn't want to strangle a kitten over it. But this is how ZOS rolls.

They don't bother fixing werewolf, for example, but that bug where you can devour multiple times that has no benefit since being in that form is useless, fix that the lazy way with a long internal cooldown.

It's absolute ***.

ShadowscaleSithis · September 2014

no

WTF Finally get to VR1 and they take this away from my NB. Skills don't work and now buffs, hmm let's stay as a NB

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · September 2014

yes

Ha. Expected balance change long overdue.

You cannot have players been able to outrun a damn light horse. While stealth also.

Is absurd and stupid to boot. And anyone who complains about the "nerf", has abused it for their own gains, so is normal for them to QQ about it since they have interests.

And I see more of those crying are Vampires, "we are too weak".
Let me laugh. "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA".

When the Hunter and Bolts hit at 50% rate, then I might understand your predicament of your own doing (get the cure).

Until then, there is still road for more "balance" to your broken sub-class and the powerful synergies that come with it.

Janduin · September 2014

no

No no no no. You cannot cherry-pick what bonuses stack or do not stack. Gear and ability effects either stack, or they do not. If you feel certain combos are giving unintended results, then rebalance those effects- across the board. This is a failure of game design at its core. And a poorly thought out correction that is basically unfair.

Braddass · September 2014

yes

Janduin wrote: »

a poorly thought out correction that is basically unfair.

It is fair for you to be able to win the Kentucky Derby ... with no horse ... while stealthed?

eNumbra · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

It is fair for you to be able to win the Kentucky Derby ... with no horse ... while stealthed?

Is it fair that players can block attacks from behind with a shield held out in front of them?

Janduin · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

Janduin wrote: »

a poorly thought out correction that is basically unfair.

It is fair for you to be able to win the Kentucky Derby ... with no horse ... while stealthed?

No that's not how it works. But yes you are a supernatural being. Still, if ZOS feels something is too much, then rebalance the abilities and do better job in design. Like said, either things stack or they do not. To isolate one combo makes no sense and is not the way to handle it.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2014

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I just don't understand why this is being singled out as the one passive that can't stack with a set passive in this game.

Because of the temper tantrums. Pretty much every nerf has been because of them and instead of using a scalpel, they decide to use a sledgehammer.

I am pretty sure its because a game mechanic that allows people to SNEAK around faster than a mounted horse is pretty stupid. Name ONE other mmo/rpg where a rogue/ranger/assassin (w/e you want to call it) sneaks around at lightning speed? I've been playing them for a long, long time and cannot name one. Must be a reason for that....

What other games allow every single class in the game to have unlimited stealth and buff stealth speed regardless of class? Name another that lets you become a vampire to gain extra stealth speed. Or another that has set bonuses that grant other stealth speed. Or another that lets you endlessly bolt around faster than mounted horses while damaging, unstealthing and stunning everything in your path.

Or even another where horses can sprint and have a stamina bar but can continue to sprint after the stamina is gone. Or one that allows you to hold block and block a huge amount of damage from 360 degrees. Or one that allows you to attack while holding block.

If you are going to start comparing this to other games there is a lot of stuff that is not similar to other games.

We are not talking about "other stuff". We are talking about stealth. And for as long as games have been games, stealth players do not stealth at the ridiculously high rates of movement that ESO has been allowing them too. This is traditional DnD stuff here we are talking about. You know...its the whole reason why rogue/ranger/assasins (w/e you want to call them) have *** AoE and amazing single target burst.

There are sets of rules that just go along with this genre. If you dont understand that then I am not sure what to say except, "deal with it".

uhh, so first, this isn't traditional DnD

"Deal with it."

Honestly, it's ridiculous that you can 'crouch' in the middle of a field in broad daylight and stealth at all, if this were a table top game the GM would laugh his a** off. It obviously has to be regarded as a form of magic (though since everyone can do it, it's a stretch) and the realism of magical stealth is a ridiculous notion.

Second, in my experience, the 'single target burst' of NB isn't that amazing, and you have to actually manage to get behind someone to get it, which is where mobility comes in.

Third, in this game, anybody with a destro staff can have amazing AoE's, so I don't even know what point yer after there.

This game in no way, shape, or form conforms to the 'rules' of this genre, if there is such a thing.

Maybe you should deal with that.

Just a note: Every single class is a magical class. Templar wields aedric sunfire and restoration spells. Dragon Knights wield akaviri dragon magic. Nightblades wield illusion, destruction, and restoration magic with a definite nocturnal-y flair. Sorcerors wield lightning and daedric-researched magic. Every class is a mage. The weapons we use is a personal choice. Face it, our characters are demigods that spilled out of the sky because Molag Bal messed with nirn in this era.

Iorail · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

Janduin wrote: »

a poorly thought out correction that is basically unfair.

It is fair for you to be able to win the Kentucky Derby ... with no horse ... while stealthed?

It is fair that you can block 360 degrees while still casting spells with 2 x 2 shield?

It is fair that you can stack other bonuses to no end and spam AoE skills forever?

It is fair that you can use 3 different sets and still get the best magicka recovery while pwn'ing everyone and theirs mothers?

If one synergy stacking is change, specially one as trivial as a sneak speed bonus, do you think it will be fair when they start doing the same to all the other combos out there? I think it is very fair, so let's start a whinney thread on how unfair it is that a (insert class here) can stack on health/magicka recovery to be almost immortal while blocking 360 degrees and casting spells all at the same time. How about we cry about that instead. That way all you people finally realize the can of worms you all opened.

MornaBaine · September 2014

no

Drazhar14 wrote: »

The way I see it, the Night's Silence set is made for players who aren't vamps, but want competitive sneak speeds. Also, sneaking as fast as a horse can run should not be possible.

Bah! You want to run as fast as a vamp? Then play a vamp. And take your "dies to fire in an instant and has to give up every other cool possibility in the game in order to get enough fire mitigation to at least slow down their inevitable death" like a man! LOL

Soloeus · September 2014

yes

Now they need to make sure all other speed buffs are properly accounted when determining how bonuses stack/overlap and potency.

shadowz081 · September 2014

no

As a nightblade vamp with concealed wep and night silence, I can say that I can't outrun a horse fully specced, or close to in speed. The only time that we can outrun them is when we pop retreating maneuvers and pop a speed potion, and even than it is only for 10 sec with a 30sec potion cool down and NB can't keep retreating maneuver up forever as well.

For the realism argument...You play a game where magic exist and gives the middle finger to the laws of physics and you want realism...Go study engineering or science and you will get all the realism you want.

iliatha · September 2014

no

nerf would be okay if all the other skills would work fine. Its just anti-gank pro zerg ***.

ShadowscaleSithis · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

Janduin wrote: »

a poorly thought out correction that is basically unfair.

It is fair for you to be able to win the Kentucky Derby ... with no horse ... while stealthed?

Yes it is fair that a Vampire can out run a horse. Do you even Lore bro?

Any Movie/book that has lore about vampires that I have read always has them as able to move silently(stealth) and fast(speed). Why wouldn't you get that in a game? Oh that's right baby players crying because they can't have the speed also.

rekina · September 2014

yes

I use these combo with CW and I think it's fair enough. Stealth being faster as horse doesn't make any sense.

Tootall2186 · September 2014

no

rekina wrote: »

I use these combo with CW and I think it's fair enough. Stealth being faster as horse doesn't make any sense.

Seriously where do you people even get this?!? No wonder they sell so many newspapers and magazines with good headlines...

You CANNOT out run a full speed specced horse!!!

Spectrasoul · September 2014

no

As has been said multiple times already: It's unfair because whilst not directly intended as a nerf to Nightblades, it negatively effects one single class a lot more than the other three. You can argue about being a Med armor stealth wearing templar all day but the simple fact is that one class will be much harder hit.

My view is that if they didn't intend for it to work this way they should have properly tested it before release and fixed it. If it was intended then just come out and say it.

Yes (apart from concealed weapon) everyone regardless of class can have access to the speed buff. The point being that in reality, only one class actually utilises it.

Edit: Still don't understand all the crying about vampires, two words: FIGHTER'S GUILD. Use the skills available to you before moaning. Everything has pros and cons.

Braddass · September 2014

yes

I am a NB ... this is not a NB nerf. It is a Vampire nerf. I consider Vamps their own, cheesily overpowered class.

For anyone who believes the cons of being a Vamp balance out the pros ... I have some oceanfront property in Arkansas you might be interested in.

If Vamps were balanced, there wouldn't be so many Emperor Vamps.

Reinetor · September 2014

no

Remove all synergies. Just dull everything down.

I rerolled from a sorc... wasn't my playstyle... The speedy nightblade really felt great. Lots of situations I got away from that wouldn't have been the same without the set/bonuses.

To all the people calling for the nerf... applauding the nerf... when your class/setup is targeted next, don't expect anyone to come to your aid.

Ultimately, I hate that this game is making everything beige and boring. Once something comes up that shines, they dull it down.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · September 2014

no

That's it! I am going to find every single one of you that keeps ignoring the entire thread to claim that this will let you outrun a horse (a light horse no less ha!) and punch you right in the nose.

I don't think that will explain to you how wrong you are or how you need to do your research before shooting off your mouth. It will make me feel better since your ignorance is what is getting me nerfed at any rate.

Tootall2186 · September 2014

no

Braddass wrote: »

I am a NB ... this is not a NB nerf. It is a Vampire nerf. I consider Vamps their own, cheesily overpowered class.

For anyone who believes the cons of being a Vamp balance out the pros ... I have some oceanfront property in Arkansas you might be interested in.

If Vamps were balanced, there wouldn't be so many Emperor Vamps.

It's not vamp that's broken. It's bat swarm combined with the buffs of being emperor.

I'm a NB too, were all NB. It's a nerf. I'm not a NB, but it's still a nerf for no other reason that people complaining about something they have no clue about.

- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.
- you CANNOT outrun a horse that's specced for speed.

Did I say it enough to get your attention?? Stop just reading headlines or people bitching about something they're uninformed about. It's the uninformed informing the uninformed.

Nihili · September 2014

yes

Beldorrub17_ESO wrote: »

Voting no because I dislike the idea of gear and passives having exceptions. If we start breaking gear synergy how will new players or uninformed players know it doesn't work together. Should there be a review of all passives that stack with gear?

Looking at passives that stack with gear sets; should the DK Iron Skin (10% block mitigation) stack with the Ward of cyrodiil's 12% mitigation 5 piece? Breton spell cost reduction with seducer? Woodelf/Khajiit stealth damage bonus with Archers Mind's stealth bonus? Darkelf's flame talent and Silks of the sun Fire damage set?

I don't understand breaking passives and gear synergy instead of putting hard caps on movement speed. It creates complexity that isn't needed.

I wholly agree with this person ^. That said, I think it should be "nerfed" because I also feel it is ridiculous that a sneaking person can catch up to horses. It's stupid. I feel like they shouldn't have made the movement speeds not stack, but should rather just have decreased the Night's Silence movement speed bonus. Their current response is kind of weird. See above.

Kevinmon · September 2014

no

I will unsub if nights silence and dark stalker do not stack, after I spent all my money getting nights silence v12 to legendary.

Janduin · September 2014

no

Making ONE set bonus in the game no longer stack with ONE ability passive in the game is WRONG, regardless of the issue. Period. Find a better way.

P.s. As long as vampire NB remains the fastest moving stealth character possible, I'm ok with some balancing. If not, what's the point of the vamp passive? Just get rid of Vampire/werewolf altogether then, and fire your design team.

morvegil · September 2014

no

THIS NEEDS TO BE ALLOWED TO PASS. NERF BOLT ESCAPE AND BLAZING SHIELD.

Soloeus · September 2014

yes

Reinetor wrote: »

Remove all synergies. Just dull everything down.

I rerolled from a sorc... wasn't my playstyle... The speedy nightblade really felt great. Lots of situations I got away from that wouldn't have been the same without the set/bonuses.

To all the people calling for the nerf... applauding the nerf... when your class/setup is targeted next, don't expect anyone to come to your aid.

Ultimately, I hate that this game is making everything beige and boring. Once something comes up that shines, they dull it down.

half of them have already been targeted; they are spreading the love.

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2014

no

fredthementenrb18_ESO wrote: »

do you think the incomming nerf is fair?

I don't think it's really question of fair. I think it's just unnecessary. There are so many other complaints circulating about unbalanced PvP and they are going to focus on something that is trivial and gives no real advantage?