onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Auric_ESO wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

That's really a nonsensical statement. They could have the best API in the world but be coming out with new features and functions and have had to rename a few functions to keep it compatible. Doesn't make it less of the best API in the world.

Actually, it would.

Good APIs never just CHANGE. They do something called "Deprecation". It means the "old" function still works the way it used to, but it has been replaced with a new function. Any calls to the old (deprecated) function will return a warning that it's deprecated, to let developers know they need to update their code. The old functions would normally be supported for some (not very long) period of time, before finally being removed.

So, ZoS practice of not deprecating existing functions and just changing the API means ZoS sucks and should be ridiculed for their utter noob-ness in the programming world.

MorHawk wrote: »

sotonin wrote: »

Ever try to search on the guild store by name? Oh wait you can't. Good luck finding a specific item in the sea of **** that's out there, and paging through page after page to find it.

THIS IS BASIC FUNCTIONALITY in basically ANY interface, not just games.

I'll stop right there because that alone is enough to *** me off.

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

Having to plod through your inventory because the sorted categories are half-done is not "immersive." Having to sit and click weapons and pieces of armor to wear them because there are no set slots is not "story-driven."

Agreed with these points. How is the omission of these features facilitating anyone's immersion or minimalism? I completely agree with those who argue that these should have been part of the vanilla UI rather than having to be modded in, but how anyone can defend the interface as it stands is beyond me.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

"CapuchinSeven wrote: »

OH please, there is very little to ESO that breaks the mold. It's a great game and if they could just get it fixed and keep it fixed (to the extent that it doesn't feel like they are breaking it every patch) it will be even better, but if you think having a crap UI with zero way to just simply search for the item you're looking to buy is "breaking the mold" then you must have had a very strange mold.

There certainly are ways to search for what you're looking to buy, or did you not notice the selections on the left?

And yes, this is "breaking the mold" of a trade system that instantly and miraculously gives you access to merchandise all over the world, and then e-mails it to you conveniently! Even modern technology can't duplicate this amazing feat!

Searching for items to buy should be hard. You're in a medieval setting. Really, you should have to hawk your wares manually in zone chat, and nothing else.

KariTR wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

Gillysan wrote: »

I vote that if an addon shows it's useful and popular by the community, that ESO give the authors a free year subscription.

How about if an addon shows it's useful and popular by the community then it is added into the core functionality of the game?

Because some of us like the minimalist core as it is and you already have the option to add to it via addons.

At the moment there are no losers here. Stop being so selfish by trying to remove choice from players because occasionally your 'must have' addons stop working for you.

Oh my gosh and @Cyberdown, you think a Skyshard map should be a basic addition? How horribly out of sync you are with the design of this game. No [bleep] way should something like that ever be added by default.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Selfish is insisting that options shouldn't be allowed or integrated, not those of us asking for OPTIONAL features and fixes that you can use or not use.

Bottom line is eso has been severely lacking in the UI department to put it nicely, the api is poor and crippled now, and they have done little to improve it. In fact they have actively worked to worsen it over the past year+.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

"Argument from Ignorance" means an argument where the lack of evidence to the contrary of a proposition is used as evidence in its favor.

Yes, the lack or absence of evidence against a position being used as evidence to support a position is an argument from ignorance, but not every argument from ignorance is as such. Any argument established with a lack or absence of evidence (or more simply reliable knowledge) to support it is literally an argument from ignorance. Every lobster is a shell fish but not all shell fish are lobsters.

Wrong. "argument from ignorance" is using the lack of evidence for a position to assert the opposite is true, and ONLY that.

An argument made with a lack of information may still be correct.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

I have used addons in several games in the past, and found them totally worthless at best and counterproductive at worst.

Subjective, overtly biased, and irrelevant to ESO's core UI functionality.

Your claim was that I don't have experience with add-ons. I pointed out that I did. My experience with them is obviously subjective; so is everyone else's. This is a non-argument, as is "overly biased". "Biased" does not mean "someone having an opinion you don't like." Again, a non-argument, and a distraction technique aimed at dismissing things you don't like to hear. You don't get to decide that things are ""overly biased"; you are not the arbitrator of bias.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

I don't need to try Loot Drop to know that I don't want any of that.

Dismissive and overtly biased.

Selective quoting is selective, and by making this reply you are being dismissive, not me. I explained why I don't need to actually try it to know I don't want it - the description of its effects is sufficient.

Again, you don't get to call things "overly biased". This is not an argument, this is trying to appoint yourself to determine what viewpoints are permitted and what aren't. You render yourself irrelevant by doing so, as you demonstrate you can't focus on the issue and need to engage in distraction techniques.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

My previous experience with add-ons in WoW informed me that they were either annoying, destructive to the community, or both (GearScore being the worst example).

Irrelevant to ESO's core UI functionality and overtly biased.

Not irrelevant at all - including them in the core UI would be equally destructive or more. Again, you can simply be dismissed out of hand because you want to claim people are "overly biased." You don't get to decide that, and tacitly admit you have no argument.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

I was amoung the PTS testers fighting the good fight for a fair and balanced API.

No you weren't. You don't need an API at all.

I shouldn't need addons to have a more minimal easier to use UI. That should just be the core UI. I don't want to use addons, but if I want a UI that isn't factually missing features from basic search functions, to inventory filters, to just letting me know what I just looted, then I need use them if I want to be on ESO.

None of these are "basic features" nor things that you need. In fact, you shouldn't even be auto-looting. It is not "factually missing features" because they are not "features"; they are things you personally want. You don't get to call them "basic features" because they are not universally basic to everyone - they're basic to you.

Cue for being in combat? Absent unless you open a menu.

Not needed, as it removes the element of surprise.

Notification that your horse needs to be fed? No cue.

I missed where real animals come with an "I'm hungry" light. Not needed, especially since your horse will not die of hunger.

There's a menu literally dedicated to nothing but notifications and that's never been one of them.

Good. You don't need them. Stop trying to have the computer play the game for you. It's your job to manage your character.

Enchant on your weapons running low? No cue. You have to open a menu and inspect your gear.

And this is a problem, or difficult because....? It take ONE BUTTON PRESS.

Want to change potions? Huge ugly wheel in the middle of the screen with an akward rotation selection, clearly designed with a controller in mind, not a mouse. The list goes on and on and on.

Buy a controller then, if it's hard. XBOX controllers work with PCs.

You want to defend that pile of dog *** ZOS has for a core UI that I all but begged them to expand? By all means. But you should familiarize yourself with what addons are actually doing in the game and not base your argument on subjective and biased opinion generated with references completely irrelevant to ESO's lacking core UI.

I'm already familiar with what they're doing, and none of it is good. All they do is foster the idea that the player should have all convenience, all the time, and never have to manage things or think for themselves.

It's hilarious that in one breath you whine about bias, then also want to talk about "steaming piles of ***," and act like defending the UI as is is somehow just obviously ridiculous and needs no counterargument. Your own bias is so overwhelming as to be comedic. You seem to think that simply disagreeing with you means I must be uninformed, or obviously I would agree with you! This is a childish and intellectually lazy position to take.

But you went WoW, so let's go WoW. WoW had core UI search features, WoW showed you what you just looted, WoW had an in combat cue, WoW didn't have a big ugly made for console potion menu in the middle of the effin screen. You want a metric for standard vs sub standard? WoW is the poster child for traditional MMO. That game was made a decade ago. If I bought a 2014 Ford Focus and it had less functionality than the 2004 model I've had for years I'd call it a pile of dog *** too...just an analogy, I mean no offense to the Ford Focus.

And those features, combined with the addons that players came up with and features like instant dungeon finder and the AH are why WoW has no community. While their UI isn't the sole culprit, it contributed. These features are terrible and shouldn't exist - and as for their UI, it was one of the WORST aspects of the game! It coined the concept of "playing the UI"; you almost never looked at the screen except to get "out of the bad".

Simply put. You're looking at addons that scream numbers in your face and assault your retinas and indiscriminately judging ones that simply allow for less UI interference. You think them equivalent because your only frames of reference didn't use addons to accomplish standard UI functionality. Those games had developers that gave a *** about their UI and made it feature complete by itself so people like me who don't want to bother with addons have everything they need to customize the UI. It's a cop out UI, don't kid yourself.

No, simply put you don't understand what's the right kind of UI and what's the wrong kind. The UI should not help you fight, give you warnings, or automate tasks for you. What it SHOULD do is give you the information you ask for when you ask for it, and not at any other time, and if you don't choose to do something, it should do nothing.

People like you shouldn't get what you want, because "what you want" inevitably imposes itself on the rest of us, with people whining that we stop to manually loot, or whatever. The developers did absolutely the right thing by stomping all over this sort of nonsense. If your enjoyment of the game is dependent on the UI, of all things, then you shouldn't have been involved in beta testing and shouldn't have your wants accommodated.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not sure what is missing that you *need* addons for, I have yet to use any.

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

Xeres14 wrote: »

How is this even still going on. Yeah the UI isn't that good. But ZO, with good foresight decided to make their UI modable. So you need addons to do X.

All this would be more valid if the UI was as is and couldn't mod it.

sotonin wrote: »

Honestly Zenimax needs to take note of all the addons people use and do some analysis. Find the top 10 addons people use and integrate official versions into the UI. This is what apple does with really popular iOS apps and it works.

epoling wrote: »

Any MMO I have played with add-ons have had this as an issue whenever there is a big patch. It's not like it is new to this specific game. I tried WoW again for a month last year and had to re-update the add-ons my son chose for me twice after initial installation. Other games that allow add-ons have had similar (if less frequent) issues. It is the nature of the beast. They change the functionality of the game and it causes issues with add-ons. Getting upset about it doesn't help.

And folks, they said from the start that they wanted this game to have a very minimalist UI. It's not broken, it just isn't what people who have played MMOs for a while have gotten used to. Add-ons are nice, but they aren't required. Yeah, I have some I like and use. I could play without them and adjust and be perfectly fine.

At this point, no add-on I really like is unusable. A minute with minion and they are all up to date. Most have been for a few days now. If they aren't getting updated that isn't Zenimax's fault. They gave advanced notice of the changes this time. Chances are the person who made your favorite add-on is on vacation or hopped games to whatever the next big thing is. If the latter is the case it wouldn't be supported anyway as the game gets better and more features added. ZOS can't make somebody support an add-on just because you like it and they don't have to add UI features that don't fit with their vision. Would a status bar (like the one ini Wykkid Framework) be nice? Yes. Would some of the other things be nice? Yes. But we can't all start clamoring for our favorite UI features to be added to the stock interface or it will be a mess. Plus it won't be implemented in the way some people want and just be another reason for complaints.

Skyrim may be the most modded game out there, but how many of those are actually UI mods? The vast majority of mods for that game don't touch the interface, and a lot of the ones that do are to make it more minimalist than it already is. Of the remaining UI mods the majority are cosmetic (map backgrounds, cursor changes, font changes, etc.).