Every major update reminds me why relying on 3rd party add-ons for basic features...

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

...sucks.

Two of 'em crash right away. Now get to log out, then go spend 20 minutes updating them all. Assuming they have updates yet.

Joy.

This kind of crap is what I always think of when some doofus chimes in with: "Duh, what are you complaining about--there's an add-on for that" when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

theyancey · August 2014

You could add on an add on updater that takes care of that automatically. You could test your add ons on PTS and relay any problems to the person who made it. You could make your own. Or you could just whine.

Tavore1138 · August 2014

Not sure what is missing that you *need* addons for, I have yet to use any.

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

Circuitous · August 2014

I can only hope that addon API changes don't occur so frequently in the future.

EinionYrth · August 2014

Circuitous wrote: »

I can only hope that addon API changes don't occur so frequently in the future.

This. If they'd just leave the API alone all would be well.

daneyulebub17_ESO · August 2014

theyancey wrote: »

You could add on an add on updater that takes care of that automatically. You could test your add ons on PTS and relay any problems to the person who made it. You could make your own. Or you could just whine.

Well, the 1st of your points is a spotty solution at best--the updaters are fairly beta-ish, require upkeep and updating themselves, and you still have to deal with broken updates and bugs--which are legion after a major game update.

The 2nd misses my point 100%, but thanks for suggesting I take the time to beta test addons on the PTS when the whole point of my post is I don't want to mess with this crap.

For the 3rd, see the preceding.

As to your 4th point--I wasn't whining--I was reiterating a basic flaw with a game that relies so much on 3rd party volunteer scripters to fill in its gaps.

KhajitFurTrader · August 2014

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

There you have it:

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

For the MMO crowd, ESO's not MMO-like enough; i.e. they've been conditioned to expect a certain UI look and feature set, and find it hard to take a step back and question their expectations. Tell them that ESO's all about being an immersive, story-driven world where the journey is the destination, and they start growling at you.

On the other hand, the die-hard TES fans, and to some extend the folks that've only known Skyrim, find the rule limitations that a persistent, multi-player online world has to bring with it hard to accept.

So, it boils down to the basic optimist/pessimist lookout at things. Some see ESO as win-win, i.e. it strifes to be the best of both worlds, while others take the opposite stance. None is more right than the other. It's simply a matter of personal preference and acceptance.

Anastasia · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You could add on an add on updater that takes care of that automatically. You could test your add ons on PTS and relay any problems to the person who made it. You could make your own. Or you could just whine.

Well, the 1st of your points is a spotty solution at best--the updaters are fairly beta-ish, require upkeep and updating themselves, and you still have to deal with broken updates and bugs--which are legion after a major game update.

The 2nd misses my point 100%, but thanks for suggesting I take the time to beta test addons on the PTS when the whole point of my post is I don't want to mess with this crap.

For the 3rd, see the preceding.

As to your 4th point--I wasn't whining--I was reiterating a basic flaw with a game that relies so much on 3rd party volunteer scripters to fill in its gaps.

Yeep - agreed daneyulebub17! ZOS saved production funds by capitalizing on all the single-player gamers coming here who love mods. By 'allowing more freedom of choice and creativity for outside modders'...heh, what is stock is very, very limited.

I, like you believe a few more basic informational text data inputs could have been included in this UI without it becoming 'too cluttered'. Now as is the norm in other MMO's if one uses mods, you have to ferret out WHO is a dependable, invested modder that is going to deliberately, and regularly update his stuff for our MMO. On-going hassle otherwise. o-0

andrantos · August 2014

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

Auric_ESO · August 2014

andrantos wrote: »

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

That's really a nonsensical statement. They could have the best API in the world but be coming out with new features and functions and have had to rename a few functions to keep it compatible. Doesn't make it less of the best API in the world.

onlinegamer1 · August 2014

Auric_ESO wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

That's really a nonsensical statement. They could have the best API in the world but be coming out with new features and functions and have had to rename a few functions to keep it compatible. Doesn't make it less of the best API in the world.

Actually, it would.

Good APIs never just CHANGE. They do something called "Deprecation". It means the "old" function still works the way it used to, but it has been replaced with a new function. Any calls to the old (deprecated) function will return a warning that it's deprecated, to let developers know they need to update their code. The old functions would normally be supported for some (not very long) period of time, before finally being removed.

So, ZoS practice of not deprecating existing functions and just changing the API means ZoS sucks and should be ridiculed for their utter noob-ness in the programming world.

EinionYrth · August 2014

Auric_ESO wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

That's really a nonsensical statement. They could have the best API in the world but be coming out with new features and functions and have had to rename a few functions to keep it compatible. Doesn't make it less of the best API in the world.

Rule number one of API design - Keep it backwards compatible
Rule 2 - see rule 1

onlinegamer1 · August 2014

EinionYrth wrote: »

Auric_ESO wrote: »

andrantos wrote: »

If the API is changing or breaking update to update such that it breaks mods update to update then it isn't much of an API is it.

That's really a nonsensical statement. They could have the best API in the world but be coming out with new features and functions and have had to rename a few functions to keep it compatible. Doesn't make it less of the best API in the world.

Rule number one of API design - Keep it backwards compatible
Rule 2 - see rule 1

Rule 3 - if you simply can't, Deprecate

Vuron · August 2014

@KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

There you have it:

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

For the MMO crowd, ESO's not MMO-like enough; i.e. they've been conditioned to expect a certain UI look and feature set, and find it hard to take a step back and question their expectations. Tell them that ESO's all about being an immersive, story-driven world where the journey is the destination, and they start growling at you.

On the other hand, the die-hard TES fans, and to some extend the folks that've only known Skyrim, find the rule limitations that a persistent, multi-player online world has to bring with it hard to accept.

So, it boils down to the basic optimist/pessimist lookout at things. Some see ESO as win-win, i.e. it strifes to be the best of both worlds, while others take the opposite stance. None is more right than the other. It's simply a matter of personal preference and acceptance.

This is interesting commentary, but doesn't really apply to the topic. Besides the fact that we're not just talking about the UI and "immersion", Skyrim was one of the most heavily modded games of all time, so you can't use the argument that TES players don't want mods.

Of course, many of the Skyrim mods were designed around being single player and can't be migrated to an MMO, but some of the more popular mods are based around mechanics that could, and should, have been part of the core ESO system.

A better inventory management system, guild store search functionality, and crafting tracking system are just a few examples of current mods that should have been included. We're in the 21st century and nobody should have to keep an external spreadsheet in order to track what traits have been researched across your account.

I don't believe that some of the people that have chosen to not use any mods are aware of what they are missing and how much more difficult and frustrating this game is without certain functionality.

We're not just talking about mods that some people complain about like the combat mods or other mods that "clutter up your screen with numbers".

TehMagnus · August 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

...sucks.

Two of 'em crash right away. Now get to log out, then go spend 20 minutes updating them all. Assuming they have updates yet.

Joy.

This kind of crap is what I always think of when some doofus chimes in with: "Duh, what are you complaining about--there's an add-on for that" when a basic, common-to-mmos-but-missing-in-ESO feature is brought up.

Most addons are updated quickly (4/5 of mine have allready been updated). Moreover managing & updating them with Minion takes 2 minutes and you don't even have to logout from the game, just reload UI.

Win.

Divinius · August 2014

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not sure what is missing that you *need* addons for, I have yet to use any.

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

Bolded part is why you don't understand.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as it's not meant as an insult at all, but you sound like my grandmother when we suggested that she get a microwave. She had never used one, and was adamantly against getting one because she couldn't understand why anyone would want or need one. When she finally did get one, she started using it all the time, and eventually admitted that she didn't know how she'd lived without it for years. When it broke one day, she had my grandfather go out and get a new one the same day because she couldn't live without it.

Best advice I can give you is to not ever start using addons. Once you have, you'll miss them horribly when you temporarily lose them every update. I can play without having every addon that I typically use, but trying to play without my "essential" addons like Advanced Filters, Crafting Material Level Display, Research Assistant, and Lootdrop is barely tolerable.

Anastasia · August 2014

Divinius wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Not sure what is missing that you *need* addons for, I have yet to use any.

Not that I have problems with anyone using them, just not sure why it is such a bone of contention.

Bolded part is why you don't understand.

Please don't take this the wrong way, as it's not meant as an insult at all, but you sound like my grandmother when we suggested that she get a microwave. She had never used one, and was adamantly against getting one because she couldn't understand why anyone would want or need one. When she finally did get one, she started using it all the time, and eventually admitted that she didn't know how she'd lived without it for years. When it broke one day, she had my grandfather go out and get a new one the same day because she couldn't live without it.

Best advice I can give you is to not ever start using addons. Once you have, you'll miss them horribly when you temporarily lose them every update. I can play without having every addon that I typically use, but trying to play without my "essential" addons like Advanced Filters, Crafting Material Level Display, Research Assistant, and Lootdrop is barely tolerable.

Right, which makes one wonder about what little was offered in TESO's UI to begin with o-0.

mdosheab16_ESO · August 2014

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

eventide03b14a_ESO · August 2014

theyancey wrote: »

You could add on an add on updater that takes care of that automatically. You could test your add ons on PTS and relay any problems to the person who made it. You could make your own. Or you could just whine.

While I appreciate the community making these wonderful addons this game has a horrendous menu screen. While I enjoy the simplified look that the UI has in combat, when I go to my menus I expect to see detailed information and find what I need fast.

Character sheet is terrible. There should be a lot more information like individual resists for instance.
Inventory does not have the sorting it should. Advanced Filters is a great addon but it doesn't work with the store and I have no idea why I have to sort through a list of bound items that I can't even sell anyway just to find the things I want to sell.
The mail is the worst mail system I have ever seen. There are almost no basic options. Again, we shouldn't need an addon for basic mail functionality.
Where are the crafting stats? Why should I need to head to a crafting station to figure out what I can make with what trait? I know there are addons but they seriously didn't think that we would want to know this information?

I could go on like this but I think I've made my point. It's nice that we can add UI elements (when they work) but the community should not be responsible for fixing a lazy menu system.

Pausekey · August 2014

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Well I guess its your choice in the end, but while frustrating, having to redo add-ons isn't the end of the world. I run 25 add-ons at all times, on all characters. I use Minion to update them, saves me a ton of time. I had 2/3 of them up to date by the end of the patch release day. It took me about 10 min to completely redo my settings on my main, and the more difficult add-ons to setup save the settings across all characters. So I was done, 15 min for entire account and back to playing like nothing happened.

Lynx7386 · August 2014

Zos is outsourcing half of their game feature coding to people that will do it for free. Clever, but for those of us who refuse to use add-ons, it's a major issue.

Basic features should be included in the product.

eventide03b14a_ESO · August 2014

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Zos is outsourcing half of their game feature coding to people that will do it for free. Clever, but for those of us who refuse to use add-ons, it's a major issue.

Basic features should be included in the product.

Might be acceptable in a F2P game but we pay a sub for this.

Zebug · August 2014

If you use addons and DON'T use Minion....you're killing yourself for nothing. It's a super simple addon manager. The day of the patch, I updated all of my addons (like 6-7 of them) in less then 10 seconds....

epoling · August 2014

Any MMO I have played with add-ons have had this as an issue whenever there is a big patch. It's not like it is new to this specific game. I tried WoW again for a month last year and had to re-update the add-ons my son chose for me twice after initial installation. Other games that allow add-ons have had similar (if less frequent) issues. It is the nature of the beast. They change the functionality of the game and it causes issues with add-ons. Getting upset about it doesn't help.

And folks, they said from the start that they wanted this game to have a very minimalist UI. It's not broken, it just isn't what people who have played MMOs for a while have gotten used to. Add-ons are nice, but they aren't required. Yeah, I have some I like and use. I could play without them and adjust and be perfectly fine.

At this point, no add-on I really like is unusable. A minute with minion and they are all up to date. Most have been for a few days now. If they aren't getting updated that isn't Zenimax's fault. They gave advanced notice of the changes this time. Chances are the person who made your favorite add-on is on vacation or hopped games to whatever the next big thing is. If the latter is the case it wouldn't be supported anyway as the game gets better and more features added. ZOS can't make somebody support an add-on just because you like it and they don't have to add UI features that don't fit with their vision. Would a status bar (like the one ini Wykkid Framework) be nice? Yes. Would some of the other things be nice? Yes. But we can't all start clamoring for our favorite UI features to be added to the stock interface or it will be a mess. Plus it won't be implemented in the way some people want and just be another reason for complaints.

Skyrim may be the most modded game out there, but how many of those are actually UI mods? The vast majority of mods for that game don't touch the interface, and a lot of the ones that do are to make it more minimalist than it already is. Of the remaining UI mods the majority are cosmetic (map backgrounds, cursor changes, font changes, etc.).

Nox_Aeterna · August 2014

Probably one the greastes parts of ESO was never made by zen , download and use minion OP really helps.

Even if addons do get out of date most of the major ones receive updates.

Thanks to the great modders who make this game actually enjoyable , no really , without some of my addons im 100% sure i would have unsubbed by now.

nerevarine1138 · August 2014

1. Addons aren't essential for the game. I don't care if you miss having everything laid out for you in a UI that covers half the screen. They aren't essential. Never will be.
2. Addons break in every MMO after a major update. ESO just gets major updates more often than most MMOs. If you're going to play with addons, get used to this.
3. Even if the first two things weren't true, it's still not ZO's problem. Addons are maintained by third-party developers. It's their job to fix addons if an update breaks them.

Anastasia · August 2014

epoling wrote: »

Any MMO I have played with add-ons have had this as an issue whenever there is a big patch. It's not like it is new to this specific game. I tried WoW again for a month last year and had to re-update the add-ons my son chose for me twice after initial installation. Other games that allow add-ons have had similar (if less frequent) issues. It is the nature of the beast. They change the functionality of the game and it causes issues with add-ons. Getting upset about it doesn't help.

And folks, they said from the start that they wanted this game to have a very minimalist UI. It's not broken, it just isn't what people who have played MMOs for a while have gotten used to. Add-ons are nice, but they aren't required. Yeah, I have some I like and use. I could play without them and adjust and be perfectly fine.

At this point, no add-on I really like is unusable. A minute with minion and they are all up to date. Most have been for a few days now. If they aren't getting updated that isn't Zenimax's fault. They gave advanced notice of the changes this time. Chances are the person who made your favorite add-on is on vacation or hopped games to whatever the next big thing is. If the latter is the case it wouldn't be supported anyway as the game gets better and more features added. ZOS can't make somebody support an add-on just because you like it and they don't have to add UI features that don't fit with their vision. Would a status bar (like the one ini Wykkid Framework) be nice? Yes. Would some of the other things be nice? Yes. But we can't all start clamoring for our favorite UI features to be added to the stock interface or it will be a mess. Plus it won't be implemented in the way some people want and just be another reason for complaints.

Skyrim may be the most modded game out there, but how many of those are actually UI mods? The vast majority of mods for that game don't touch the interface, and a lot of the ones that do are to make it more minimalist than it already is. Of the remaining UI mods the majority are cosmetic (map backgrounds, cursor changes, font changes, etc.).

Right, agreed. And those of us who are veteran PC MMO vets who were drawn in to this MMO actually expect information to be accessible/user friendly/available. A lot, I mean a LOT of mods for single player games have less to do with information and more to do with visual *add-ins*...and so far, I'm not thinkin' those kinds of mods are being allowed in TESO *winks.

My knowing before launch that the TESO visuals on the UI would be minimalist did not provide me with the assessment that if my preferred gamestyle needs a certain type of information for me to be comfortable, to have fun etc. that I would not have it at all here unless I used mods.

First day of pre-launch I was boggled that I still didn't have access to/ a tab with basic text info on my attacks or inc damage. Just really basic text info. Thats not to mention info available say about crafting when one is away from a crafting table (*obviously another "time sink").

It is/was ZOS's decision to offer less information to their players; maybe it saved them money etc. Doesn't mean it is not frustrating or that the alternative of messing about with several (*my friend runs 27 different mods

)) is worth the effort for what I consider to be basic information needed to play my character effectively and have fun. Just seems cheap.

twev · August 2014

Pausekey wrote: »

mdosheab16_ESO wrote: »

Another patch that has broken all the addons was the final straw for me. I've cancelled my subscription for now and will see how things go over my remaining 90 days.

I loved ESO, and I still want to. But to call it a 'high maintenance' relationship is an understatement.

Well I guess its your choice in the end, but while frustrating, having to redo add-ons isn't the end of the world. I run 25 add-ons at all times, on all characters. I use Minion to update them, saves me a ton of time. I had 2/3 of them up to date by the end of the patch release day. It took me about 10 min to completely redo my settings on my main, and the more difficult add-ons to setup save the settings across all characters. So I was done, 15 min for entire account and back to playing like nothing happened.

What add-on do you use for Harvest Map, when Harvest Map doesn't work while the guild functionality is shut down, and the data gets overwritten and lost while they swap back and forth?
And the last conversation I had with the author, he said he was unsubbing and there are no replacements that cover that info.

What add-on do you use for ZrMiniMap, since the original author quit a while back, and there aren't any workable substitutions that reliably update of work similarly?

I have 19 other add-ons covering inventory management, research management, and much else that are still 'Out of Date' as of 3 minutes ago, and I have no clue whether those authors are still active or not.
Many of those add-ons either have no alternate, or they're just as out of date for some time now.

The original pool of add-on authors has been much reduced by authors giving up and leaving in frustration, and new authors don't seem to be joining in any numbers to replace the ones who left.

I know it's fashionable to point out that it's not Zeni's responsibility to coddle add-on authors, but to originally invite them in to augment game play, and tout a robust add-on environment and then chase them away with a stick is counterproductive to those of us who only stick around paying the sub and playing the game because the add-ons make the game live up to it's potential of fun for us.

As it stands now, I'm just coasting thru the balance of my 6 month sub, because I buy/sub/play one game at a time, and I'm waiting to see whether I have to move on or not.

Edited to add:
@epoling‌
"..... And folks, they said from the start that they wanted this game to have a very minimalist UI. It's not broken, it just isn't what people who have played MMOs for a while have gotten used to. Add-ons are nice, but they aren't required. Yeah, I have some I like and use. I could play without them and adjust and be perfectly fine....."

Minimalist is nice, for players who want it. Put in a button that lets you turn all that stuff off.

Add-ons that keep getting broken by an API that changes without notice in ways that normal API's don't normally change without notice is just counterproductive to the rich add-on environment they originally touted.
It's true, they may not be needed by 'you' and others, but the features they provide are preferred by many of us who use them, and there are a number of people who have stopped playing the game over this simple issue.
Some forum users like to denigrate us, but we are a source of income to ZENI and they don't seem to mind making us as unwelcome as they can.

jrgray93 · August 2014

There is no reason us people who want these UI features shouldn't be able to have them. Those who don't can just disable them. That's the beauty of an optional UI element. ESO is missing some very basic UI features that us MMO veterans need to fully enjoy the game how we want to.

I need numerical feedback on my damage and healing statistics. I don't want some vague health bar that provides me with no clue as to what is going on. But hey, if that's the experience you want, I see no reason why you can't just disable those numbers that I rely upon.

Relying on addons has been a major pain. I am very grateful for the people developing them, however.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · August 2014

They'll change some things around here and there in the API to make sure your addons break with each update.

Tatuaje · August 2014

"As to your 4th point--I wasn't whining--I was reiterating a basic flaw with a game that relies so much on 3rd party volunteer scripters to fill in its gaps."

Your mistake is the same as mine.... We thought TESO was going to be a MMO with tools, game play, etc as such. For what it is, not bad in concept. A full fledged and complete MMO, I think not. Had this been a PC release rather than a PC/console, I wonder how much different it might have been.