New Champion Point System creating an even larger player gap

jeevin · July 2014

From what I can gather a player will continually level up with gained xp and thus unlocking new passives with champion points. I know you will still gain a modest amount of xp even when your not playing but I doubt it will compare to a player who devotes a lot of time to the game.

I thought the biggest issue everyone has with Veteran Ranks is the cruel shock you get when you hit VR1 and go up against a VR12 and get your face stomped in. I don't see how this Champion Point System will be any different. In fact, from the way it reads, the gap between players could effectively get worse over time.

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

Nova Sky · July 2014

*shrug* Honestly, only time will tell.

MercyKilling · July 2014

It's just more content I'll likley never do, kinda like all the "improvements" and additions to PvP.

CoUsT · July 2014

jeevin wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

So casuals want to be as good as people who invest a lot time in game? It's not working this way. It's the same with everything in world - want to be good in playing on piano? Fine! Invest some time to learn! Want to be good in making programs? Fine, invest some time to learn how to make them!

You know, maybe it's new trend. Everyone want everything right now, without investing anything - time, knowledge or your skills.

In my opinion, champion system is great, it will give ESO more... hm, freedom in creating builds. Making your own specialization will be much funnier!

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · July 2014

I think the OPs assumption is wrong, actually what happens is that you are pleasantly surprised at V1 at how easy it suddenly is to face a V12 compared to how it was a lvl 49!

You see the system for adjusting your stats in Cyrodiil completely change at V1 and you become a LOT strong than what you were shortly before.

Zabus · July 2014

Honestly if you put in 20 hours into the game you deserve to be superior to someone who only plays 2 hours or so. (random numbers)

Let's put it this way, two people earn the same amount of money for each hour they work. If I put in overtime, I continue to get paid, and if I stop working well I don't continue to make any money. The person who did overtime gets a raise (i.e gained more xp) the person who did not do extra work should not expect a reward.

The same concept should apply here. but instead everyone wants to be spoon fed. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same reward without putting in the same amount of effort.

I simply cannot stand the mindset of being held by your hand...

Lyrro · July 2014

Honestly, the whole champion thing sounds to me like a well dressed means of raising the level cap without sounding like you're trying to raise the level cap.

Sindala · July 2014

They did say there will be 'Rested bonus' being added to XP for just this reason. So a casual player will gain XP quicker than one that plays 24/7.
Also Champion points are Account wide so your lower chars are given a huge bonus once they hit VR1 if you already have a high VR level char.

NadiusMaximus · July 2014

They will just make pvp a tiered system
1 to 50
Vet 1 to 12
Champion lvls
Next
Next

Phantax · July 2014

So according to the first part of your comment people who put a lot more time into the game don't deserve to have their characters/stats advanced more than a very casual player?

crislevin · July 2014

Depends on how they implement it, this is a legit concern.

Imagine an older player with 100 crit, 3000 armor, 10,000 health.

Now, they may add a cap on these things.

But the whole idea behind this is still asking people to grind grind grind. They really need to do away with this whole thing.

Paske · July 2014

Someone that plays more then me will have better gear / stats / stuff then me.

That is normal and expected. Dont really see an issue.

And no, I don't believe anyone will reach "God Mode" with time one shoting newer players.

The assumption is childish at best.

Eatitapple · July 2014

crislevin wrote: »

Depends on how they implement it, this is a legit concern.

Imagine an older player with 100 crit, 3000 armor, 10,000 health.

Now, they may add a cap on these things.

But the whole idea behind this is still asking people to grind grind grind. They really need to do away with this whole thing.

There is a cap its called overcharge.

I don't get though how you'ed expect people that put more time in the game not to be a lot stronger then people that only play a little.

frankuguzzb16_ESO · July 2014

i think it's a great improvement.
noobs and casuals don't need to be strong as hardcore, and they simply won't even notice the problem. Instead, hardcore players NEED reasons to continue playing the same character...and this progression is way better than current VRs.

crislevin · July 2014

Eatitapple wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

Depends on how they implement it, this is a legit concern.

Imagine an older player with 100 crit, 3000 armor, 10,000 health.

Now, they may add a cap on these things.

But the whole idea behind this is still asking people to grind grind grind. They really need to do away with this whole thing.

There is a cap its called overcharge.

I don't get though how you'ed expect people that put more time in the game not to be a lot stronger then people that only play a little.

I never said that, all we are discussing, is how large the gap should be, if yout want to discuss if older players should be stronger, open your own thread and I bet nobody will disagree.

Istyar · July 2014

Why the HELL a VR1 must be able to kill easily a VR12?
I can't understand people who think this way...

Ojustaboo · July 2014

to quote Paul Sage (eso creative director)

Our goal is to have a cadence system where if your out not doing anything special, it will be about an hour you will have to put in and you'll get one of these points.

and

For example, say we're in season 8, season 8 gear will be a little more powerful than season 7 gear but season 7 gear will be much more readily available. The reason we are looking at this type of system is because we feel there will be less player separation. We will have something called a champion rating which will look at your gear as well as all the points you've spent in the champion system which will give you an idea of whether you can take on certain content or not.

We want to make sure we don't have a lot of player separation so thats why we are going to make the itemisation have less requirements for equipping the items but still finding those items will be more rare, yes there is a solution to crafting for all those people asking about crafting

Interviewer: Do you think having the champion rating could create a divide in the community where someone says I want to do that trial wile you but they would say "Well whats your champion rating?"

Paul: Lets hit that head on, I do think it will to some extent which is exactly why the champion rating will be based more on the gear than say the points you put into the champion system and the reason that's important is because the gear only a season behind is readily available to everyone causing less of a divide. We're actually trying to keep people together. It should be much easier to catch up than it is now.

deximasb14_ESO · July 2014

Your missing the point of this system you get points per vr lvl.the points have a cap so eventually everyone can have the same amount. And it helps us play how we want. I am excited for this system can't wait to play it

Nox_Aeterna · July 2014

Well , wait and see seems a fair idea.

It could go wrong that is true. Honestly , i prefer to current a lot more. If max lvl is vr12 , anyone can go and try to get it , even if it takes sometime.

Now if the max lvl is infinite , then people will really never be equal , doesnt matter how long.

ozmorgudduth · July 2014

CoUsT wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

So casuals want to be as good as people who invest a lot time in game? It's not working this way. It's the same with everything in world - want to be good in playing on piano? Fine! Invest some time to learn! Want to be good in making programs? Fine, invest some time to learn how to make them!

You know, maybe it's new trend. Everyone want everything right now, without investing anything - time, knowledge or your skills.

In my opinion, champion system is great, it will give ESO more... hm, freedom in creating builds. Making your own specialization will be much funnier!

Totaly agree.

BTW, how a bonus to exp gain can create even bigger gap, if you don't play that often you get exp bonus to close that gap, it's exactly the opposite.

And I'm only VR7 since yesterday and I'm a casual. Been playing since early access and I'm looking forward to champion system. That tower actually will work with my build very well

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2014

Yes people who keep playing longer will be better. Isn't that the point of mmos? People who put in more time are better statistically. Pretty common idea in mmo land .

Guppet · July 2014

xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »

Honestly if you put in 20 hours into the game you deserve to be superior to someone who only plays 2 hours or so. (random numbers)

Let's put it this way, two people earn the same amount of money for each hour they work. If I put in overtime, I continue to get paid, and if I stop working well I don't continue to make any money. The person who did overtime gets a raise (i.e gained more xp) the person who did not do extra work should not expect a reward.

The same concept should apply here. but instead everyone wants to be spoon fed. I don't understand why people think they deserve the same reward without putting in the same amount of effort.

I simply cannot stand the mindset of being held by your hand...

Yep I agree spend ten times the time playing, get ten times the reward.

Thing is, your conveniently missing the other part if that. Play for 10 times as much time, pay ten times as much to do it! Somehow I guess you don't want that part of representational play times to be applied.

It would be fair if you play for ten hours a week, you sub stays as $15. You play for fourty hours, your sub should be $60.

If you can't accept or counter that with a decent business reason, you can't really champion a system that benefits those with no real life responsibilities over those that do have them.

It's not going to be long until the media starts putting pressure on game devs to be socially responsible and stop rewarding unhealthy amounts of game time.

Ohioastro · July 2014

There is a potential problem here that's real. What tends to happen in MMOs is that people want their characters to improve, and at the same time they want challenge. As a result, character progresss end up as sort of an illusion: their numbers are bigger and they're facing others (player or not) with bigger numbers.

The issue is that this creates an absolute wall for new players and for alternative characters. I played EQ1, and their "alternate advancement" system ballooned to many thousands of points over a decade. This wasn't a big deal if you just played one character...but it would take many, many hundreds of hours to bring a new character up to speed. And you simply couldn't do anything interesting without those thousands of points.

This has nothing to do with "casual" vs "veteran"; it has to do with whether you want new people to be able to join the game or whether you want people to be able to try new characters out without committing to what tends to end up as hundreds of hours of tedious, mechanical, and lonely repetition to get to where all of the other players are. There is good reason to have a sane (and moderately low) cap on effective player power.

Logan9a · July 2014

jeevin wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

I feel the casual player believing they are entitled to keep up with the guy who has no life other than in the game is what is causing the 'dumbing down' of games.

Xsorus · July 2014

jeevin wrote: »

From what I can gather a player will continually level up with gained xp and thus unlocking new passives with champion points. I know you will still gain a modest amount of xp even when your not playing but I doubt it will compare to a player who devotes a lot of time to the game.

I thought the biggest issue everyone has with Veteran Ranks is the cruel shock you get when you hit VR1 and go up against a VR12 and get your face stomped in. I don't see how this Champion Point System will be any different. In fact, from the way it reads, the gap between players could effectively get worse over time.

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

Depends, Look at a system like DAOC realm ranks for example.

If a RR1 went against a RR11, most of the time the RR1 would lose, and they should....the RR11 has more experience and time invested in the character

However It didn't take long for an RR1 to get RR5 in that game, and RR5 vs RR11 was a lot more competitive.

Nox_Aeterna · July 2014

Logan9a wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

Does anyone else feel this new champion system will create an even larger gap between the players who play more vs the players who only have time to play casually?

I feel the casual player believing they are entitled to keep up with the guy who has no life other than in the game is what is causing the 'dumbing down' of games.

The issue with that , is the same with vr1 to vr12.

Casuals are also paying customers and tons of them dont care if try to toss this logic on them , they just log off and unsub after a while of being bashed.

Which is the real issue to zen , all players pay the same sub , making a small population of low lifes demi gods , usually annoys the casuals.

Still , we have not seen how this will actually work , so it might be just some really small irrelevant buffs.

Enkil · July 2014

To me, this new champion is like a more meaningful loyalty program.... Those of us that have been playing since the beginning (and who are actual veterans) will have some passive abilities that reflect it... If anything they add gets out of hand or needs a cap, tons of people will come [snip] and moan on the forums until it's balanced.

I really love how they are pulling in elements from previous titles like the Skyrim constellation system... I am def feeling this new champion system... can't wait!

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Vahrokh · July 2014

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Yes people who keep playing longer will be better. Isn't that the point of mmos? People who put in more time are better statistically. Pretty common idea in mmo land .

Common among the "plebs" and wrong.

What you and other say is only valid over statistics made on mediocre players.
Back at WoW times (I was a very hard core raider), I had friends who would start the game, be of awesome talent and get immediately recruited by us or even a better guild (some ended in Nihilum) who would quickly turn them into true paragons that have nothing to do with the average "I grinded 2 years THEREFORE I MUST be better".

Grinding is the quality of no quality men. They don't improve because they improve, but they marginally improve because by wasting a lot of time they farm (like any chimpanze could) some better stats. Their improvement is exogenous.
This becomes immediately evident in PvP where a skilled guy with bad gear will trump the 2 years grinder in epics with no problem.

Tabbycat · July 2014

I am not worried about this. I never understood the desire to have everything handed to you instantly. I enjoy working for things as long as that thing I am working towards is obtainable.

I've been playing since early access and my highest level character is now at 24. That's probably on the extreme end of casual. I'm sure there are others who've played as long as I have (I think I am at around 6 days played with this character) who may even have lower level characters.

Why does it take me so long to level? Well, I might be gathering materials to level up my crafting skills or to make some gold. I might be trying to fish up those rare fish for fishing achievements. I might be just running around exploring stuff.

It does not worry me about the Champion system. I'm not going to get locked out of content. It might take me longer to get there, but eventually I will be where everyone else is. I'll have just taken the scenic route to get there.

NewBlacksmurf · July 2014

The game is going to have such a gap that only elitist will play endgame.

revolving door model....SMH
It sounds like the Leadership is all focused and listening to a small group vs. reading the forums.

Sangeet · July 2014

Im currently vr9, and i dont want that the game createas the artifcial invested time gap between players. I would enjoy a softcap system where everyone does the same damge on the battlefield. Fps shooters work with this method since years. Modern shooters make equipment and skills via pvp enabled. Make for example a waraxe skilline only via pvp xp. Create an incentive for pvp. Not more boring solo xp grind. How cool would be additional siege equipment like siege towers or chariots as pvp skill line.