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Immersion: Are you playing the same game as me?
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SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »So far, I have realized from this thread that visual immersion is only one aspect of immersion in general. I like visual immersion. That's me. Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, it's just an opinion. The purpose of the thread was to get other opinions of immersion, which seems to have been more successful than I originally had anticipated. TBQH, I just wanted to show off that awesome screenshot. :P
Not really. You like story immersion. Visual immersion is something us first person guys do. You are playing with dolls.
When I was a kid, I called them "mans". Terminator, GI Joe, Batman, Ninja Turtles, and some others. Dolls aren't just for girls.
You tell me I play with dolls, but my question is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdVFLTbQuHE&feature=kp Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 2:48AM0 -
NakedSnake✭✭✭
Sure. Let me know what part I'm not understanding. 'Cause my knowing is coming from, I don't know, knowing my own thoughts and reinforced by what I posted.NakedSnake wrote: »@Allyah Clearly you still don't.
My response was obviously directed at the OP not you but I see what you did there.
You: We simply prefer to decrease the learning curve by correlating and substantiating what we observe while "playing it".
Me: Most of the time, it is just found more quickly by looking at numbers.
Keep trying. I'm pretty sure you'll at least come close to pulling yourself out of the hole you're digging. Or you could just concede that you jumped the gun on your response to me and save yourself the effort.
And yes, I responded to an un-directed response. I sure hope you could see what I did. You'd have to be pretty obtuse to not.
Your bewilderment is understandable as its a lot of words to read all at once but I think I see the problem now. You seem to be reading the posts in reverse. Here let me help you out.
You cant even quote yourself accurately but I assume you were talking about this as the quote you wrote was from this post and you have no responses matching your imagined statement succeeding it.You: We simply prefer to decrease the learning curve by correlating and substantiating what we observe while "playing it".
Me: Most of the time, it is just found more quickly by looking at numbers.
Do you understand how the posting works now? You make a false statement, I rebuttal, easy right. Keep trying you'll get there some day.NakedSnake wrote: »
What you don't seem to understand is that having more information is always more effective. People who like to have information displayed to them are not solely learning the game through numbers as you suggest but learn the game exactly the same way someone without numbers does. We simply prefer to decrease the learning curve by correlating and substantiating what we observe while "playing it".There's this new thing called understanding concepts. Know what your skill does and how it works with others and you won't need a number to use it properly.Edited by NakedSnake on July 16, 2014 3:01AM"Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"0 -
Humanistic✭✭✭✭There are a lot of ways to argue this - but if you want to get 110% technical about it - it takes the mind longer to READ than it does to RECOGNIZE.
There have been studies about this, and anyone is more than welcome to look them up and research the information.
For example: Two people are on the street, a car drives by, and both people recognize the object as a 'car' - the eyes see, the mind reacts. A second car drives by, but this time has "This is a car" written on the side. The first person reads the writing - the eyes see, the mind reacts, the mind processes the writing. The second person doesn't read the writing and instead looks at the object in question and sees a car - the eyes see, the mind reacts. In the few seconds it took the first person to read the writing and process the extra information, the second person has already identified the object for what it is.
The mind by default (doesn't matter who you are, and you can argue that science is wrong until you're blue in the face) takes longer to process words and numbers than it does objects. This is why I never use flying combat text for example- I don't need numbers to tell me that Biting Jabs hits hard, I just know because I've used it so much. I'm guessing that most of these people that use FTC or other flying text addons never had one complaint about damage numbers and such while playing Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind and did just fine. Granted, those are single-player games, but they have health bars in common.
If you want to know if things are working, then pay attention. If something seems off, then write a bug report. If you want to test a video game, then stop playing it, go apply to a game studio, and be a game tester. If you want to play the game, then play the game and report bugs as you see them. I can guarantee you that businesses like ZoS will never pat you on the back for finding bugs, or putting in extra work when you feel like it. These people make games for a living, and you're a player, you're not a professional game tester or a game developer - your own time is better spent being yourself and not trying to be something you are not.
It's kind of funny how people think that MORE information lessens the "learning" curve. More information means more time learning, hence INCREASING the learning curve even more when it doesn't even have to be. I think it's absolutely preposterous that people need a handicap addon like damage numbers to even be able to function in a game like this - and on top of that they say it helps more people in the long run.
Science isn't wrong. If you don't agree with me, it doesn't even matter - you'll just be at the back of the crowd missing the important points - which we are all fine with LOL.
As far as immersion goes, this game has nothing to do with it. There is an incredibly long list of things in this game that break immersion for me. Quite honestly, I will probably never feel immersed in a game again until VR devices hit the market. I enjoy a minimalist UI myself, but I no longer feel immersed in the game on any level whatsoever.Edited by Humanistic on July 16, 2014 4:21AM0 -
Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NakedSnake wrote: »At the end of the day when you beat me, I will know exactly why I lost and you will only be able to say you won due to skillz.
I always win due to skills.
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NakedSnake✭✭✭Blackwidow wrote: »NakedSnake wrote: »At the end of the day when you beat me, I will know exactly why I lost and you will only be able to say you won due to skillz.
I always win due to skills.
I believe you. :agree:"Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"0 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭if the role players want to play in 1st person with no addons and a minimal UI that's fine. Its your game. Where it impacts other people is when they demand the game be scaled to their playstyle. I can't help wondering how many of the people who complained about the vet difficulty were playing like this.
You will make the game hard for yourself if the RP elements are your priority.
I never play in 1st person. I use addons that allow me to see behind the games mechanics and see exactly whats happening (and what isn't happening that should be) I enjoy unravelling the complexity of the various interactions and synergies between armor, passives and abilities. I am as far away as it is possible to be form a role player yet I think I am more representative of the greater MMO community. This is all old hat to an MMO veteran. Its a natural modus operandi. Yet our coin is just as good as the RP'ers and there's probably a lot more of it.
If you want to limit your effectiveness for role play reasons fine. I hope you have fun. But it shouldn't impact those of us who want to maximise our effectiveness within the scope that the game allows. The game should not be scaled you your playstyle.3 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know, the same could be said for players who complain the game is too easy. If they shut their numbers off and just tried to play without them, would it be that easy?
You're basically saying that TES should become a number crunching game, and while you can have your opinion, as a TES fan, I will disagree. I didn't start playing TES to crunch numbers. I started playing it because of immersion.
And as a seasoned MMO fan, you should know that you have plenty of those number crunching games to choose from if you want that.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 7:34AM2 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭You know, the same could be said for players who complain the game is too easy. If they shut their numbers off and just tried to play without them, would it be that easy?
Yep. Combat Addons don't make the decisions about what works and what doesn't. You do that through playing the game. But they to tell you why something doesn't work or why its very effective.
Also addons are there if you want to use them. If you chose not to its akin to taking a maths exam without a calculator. You have to expect it to be more difficult and if calculators are allowed you might as well take them. Of course for some people this isn't what maths is all about. the traditionalists would shun the calculator but they wouldn't also demand that the exam be made easier because of their decision.2 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know, the same could be said for players who complain the game is too easy. If they shut their numbers off and just tried to play without them, would it be that easy?
Yep. Combat Addons don't make the decisions about what works and what doesn't. You do that through playing the game. But they to tell you why something doesn't work or why its very effective.
Also addons are there if you want to use them. If you chose not to its akin to taking a maths exam without a calculator. You have to expect it to be more difficult and if calculators are allowed you might as well take them. Of course for some people this isn't what maths is all about. the traditionalists would shun the calculator but they wouldn't also demand that the exam be made easier because of their decision.
Some of us don't need a calculator to be good at math.1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭You know, the same could be said for players who complain the game is too easy. If they shut their numbers off and just tried to play without them, would it be that easy?
Yep. Combat Addons don't make the decisions about what works and what doesn't. You do that through playing the game. But they to tell you why something doesn't work or why its very effective.
Also addons are there if you want to use them. If you chose not to its akin to taking a maths exam without a calculator. You have to expect it to be more difficult and if calculators are allowed you might as well take them. Of course for some people this isn't what maths is all about. the traditionalists would shun the calculator but they wouldn't also demand that the exam be made easier because of their decision.
Some of us don't need a calculator to be good at math.
Some of us didn't need to make the exam easier.1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭You know, the same could be said for players who complain the game is too easy. If they shut their numbers off and just tried to play without them, would it be that easy?
Yep. Combat Addons don't make the decisions about what works and what doesn't. You do that through playing the game. But they to tell you why something doesn't work or why its very effective.
Also addons are there if you want to use them. If you chose not to its akin to taking a maths exam without a calculator. You have to expect it to be more difficult and if calculators are allowed you might as well take them. Of course for some people this isn't what maths is all about. the traditionalists would shun the calculator but they wouldn't also demand that the exam be made easier because of their decision.
Some of us don't need a calculator to be good at math.
Some of us didn't need to make the exam easier.
If the game was about number crunching, but it's not. TES was never about crunching numbers. I suggest you go find a game that is if it's too easy for your exploits.1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
If the game was about number crunching, but it's not. TES was never about crunching numbers. I suggest you go find a game that is if it's too easy for your exploits.
Where the hell did exploits come from?
I've played TES since Morrowind. I played them all on the highest possible difficulty. I am as much of a TES fan as you or anyone else1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If the game was about number crunching, but it's not. TES was never about crunching numbers. I suggest you go find a game that is if it's too easy for your exploits.
Where the hell did exploits come from?
I've played TES since Morrowind. I played them all on the highest possible difficulty. I am as much of a TES fan as you or anyone else
You also made a bunch of assumption about how immersion limits ability and caused nerfs. FYI, I don't need a mod to tell me what skills work best. I can see it when the enemy takes damage.
Also, I was never in favor of making the game easier. I prefer a challenge, which is why I am not interested in figuring out how to exploit every stat I see.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 7:59AM1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
If the game was about number crunching, but it's not. TES was never about crunching numbers. I suggest you go find a game that is if it's too easy for your exploits.
Where the hell did exploits come from?
I've played TES since Morrowind. I played them all on the highest possible difficulty. I am as much of a TES fan as you or anyone else
You also made a bunch of assumption about how immersion limits ability and caused nerfs. FYI, I don't need a mod to tell me what skills work best. I can see it when the enemy takes damage.
Do you know why it works? Do you know if the crit rating is as stated in the tool tip or if it is being modified by a passive ability as it should be. Is damage being mitigated as it should me to specific damage types. Are your traits, glyphs etc giving the correct benefits as stated. Are they stacking, which of your buffs stack and which don't.......
Addons don't make you play better. They let you know why you are playing better. Most of the facts we know about the game mechanics are the result of someone doing some extensive research using combat addons to reveal exactly what works as intended and what isn't. Without people doing this we would just have a vague idea that something isn't working correctly and fixing the problems would take longer. Being able to be specific about what does what helps both us and ZoS understand the game mechanics.1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If the game was about number crunching, but it's not. TES was never about crunching numbers. I suggest you go find a game that is if it's too easy for your exploits.
Where the hell did exploits come from?
I've played TES since Morrowind. I played them all on the highest possible difficulty. I am as much of a TES fan as you or anyone else
You also made a bunch of assumption about how immersion limits ability and caused nerfs. FYI, I don't need a mod to tell me what skills work best. I can see it when the enemy takes damage.
Do you know why it works? Do you know if the crit rating is as stated in the tool tip or if it is being modified by a passive ability as it should be. Is damage being mitigated as it should me to specific damage types. Are your traits, glyphs etc giving the correct benefits as stated. Are they stacking, which of your buffs stack and which don't.......
Addons don't make you play better. They let you know why you are playing better. Most of the facts we know about the game mechanics are the result of someone doing some extensive research using combat addons to reveal exactly what works as intended and what isn't. Without people doing this we would just have a vague idea that something isn't working correctly and fixing the problems would take longer. Being able to be specific about what does what helps both us and ZoS understand the game mechanics.
I don't need to know. I play for the challenge and win with skill. It's not my job to find bugs.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 8:24AM1 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭As Hilgara says: without the number crunching add-ons we'd never rise beyond the 'something doesn't feel right' suspicion when things aren't working. With them people can find out for sure.0
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SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »As Hilgara says: without the number crunching add-ons we'd never rise beyond the 'something doesn't feel right' suspicion when things aren't working. With them people can find out for sure.
Assuming the developers don't find them, what does that have to do with the average player needing this stuff?0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭The developers don't find them. The average player can do what they like but if you don't use them to find out if what you're doing actually works then you will be at a disadvantage that will show up in group content.
I don't use the more hard core ones even so as i'm not that competitive. But it does mean i'll probably suck in Trials though.0 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »The developers don't find them. The average player can do what they like but if you don't use them to find out if what you're doing actually works then you will be at a disadvantage that will show up in group content.
I don't use the more hard core ones even so as i'm not that competitive. But it does mean i'll probably suck in Trials though.
I can figure out what works without stats just by playing the game and watching the damage bars. Also, by reading the description of the abilities. As for what the enemy is doing, there's a certain element of surprise which I like to leave up to skill. It's a part of the difficulty which I want to beat with skill. I don't need to know the numbers to play the game the way it was made.1 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Sure. But nothing beats having logs to look over when experimenting. You won't be getting the best info possible on the fly. And as a nightblade - a class for whom Zen's approach to 'fixing' stuff that does not do what the tooltip says is to change the tooltip I have no faith at all in that.
But I don't take games seriously enough to bother doing more than playing in whatever way seems effective enough to be fun.Edited by steveb16_ESO46 on July 16, 2014 11:07AM1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »Sure. But nothing beats having logs to look over when experimenting. You won't be getting the best info possible on they fly. And as a nightblade - a class for whom Zen's approach to 'fixing' stuff that does not do what the tooltip says is to change the tooltip I have no faith at all in that.
Again, I see what works best just by playing.1 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭No. You think you see. You have impressions not data. You cannot see if a skill is doing only 15 out of 20 damage or the extra +5 from a passive isn't working in the middle of combat. You cannot see, in the middle of a PvP ruck if all your mitigation worked against a sneak attack while you're fighting someone else, unless you're some kind of android.
But I don't care either way so long as you're having fun.
I'm happy for people to use any legal add-on they want, or not.1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »No. You think you see. You have impressions not data. You cannot see if a skill is doing only 15 out of 20 damage or the extra +5 from a passive isn't working in the middle of combat. You cannot see, in the middle of a PvP ruck if all your mitigation worked against a sneak attack while you're fighting someone else, unless you're some kind of android.
But I don't care either way so long as you're having fun.
I'm happy for people to use any legal add-on they want, or not.
Look, don't tell me what I see. You don't know what you're talking about. You're spewing nonsense about stats and crap, but you're probably terrible at the game. Why? Because damage stats do not always equal skill.
When to attack, when to block, where to move, and even a certain randomness of luck all play a factor on the outcome of a match. I do perfectly fine beating games without statistical readouts telling me each number. I see the results of what I am doing without these numbers, and even more important, I practice playing the game. It was not made to be a statistic calculation. It was made to be played with skill.
Timing, coordination, precision, reaction speed... These are elements that do not have statistics. What you're trying to argue is that add ons can teach you how to build the most over powered class by reading the numbers and seeing which are the highest. That's pretty lame if your only chance at winning is by exploiting the most over powered stuff.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 11:33AM4 -
forbarcusb16_ESO✭✭✭Whilst we're on the topic of addons, any addon that can let me move my quest tracker below my minimap?"I'm guilty of a far more monstrous crime, I'm guilty of being a dwarf."0 -
emeraldbay✭✭✭✭✭Come on now, if someone wants to see all of these numbers in action, I don't see why we should try to stop them or put them down for it. We all just want people to enjoy the game, right? If they enjoy it that way, instead of arguing with each other, we should be happy that we're all enjoying something in common.
The same goes for those with minimal UI who don't want or need all those numbers. They're enjoying the game, shouldn't we let them? There's no reason to go arguing about which way is better and whether or not using numbers is tantamount to exploiting.Edited by emeraldbay on July 16, 2014 11:58AM-T h e - A l d m e r i - I n i t i a t i v e-— O r d e r - o f - t h e - R a v y n —1 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, I tried to keep it simple but they keep talking as if skill is not a factor.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 16, 2014 12:06PM2 -
emeraldbay✭✭✭✭✭
That's true, numbers do not equal skill. Skill is determined by the player, not the amount of information (or lack thereof) you receive. Some people do better with numbers than they do without, and some people do better without numbers, in the end, it's just the difference between play styles.Well, I tried to keep it simple, but they just keep pushing their numbers equalling skill stuff, which is a total myth.
Player A likes X play style, and Player B likes Y play style. If Player A tries to use Y play style, Player A will not perform as well as they did before, and vice versa.-T h e - A l d m e r i - I n i t i a t i v e-— O r d e r - o f - t h e - R a v y n —0 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭emeraldbay wrote: »
That's true, numbers do not equal skill. Skill is determined by the player, not the amount of information (or lack thereof) you receive. Some people do better with numbers than they do without, and some people do better without numbers, in the end, it's just the difference between play styles.Well, I tried to keep it simple, but they just keep pushing their numbers equalling skill stuff, which is a total myth.
Player A likes X play style, and Player B likes Y play style. If Player A tries to use Y play style, Player A will not perform as well as they did before, and vice versa.
All players of this game are benefiting from addons whether they use them or not. Theorycrafting has become a dirty word recently but if not got all those guys who spend hours with combat addons, spread sheets and calculators the combat bugs would take much longer to eek out if at all. Checkout the theory crafting forum on TF and instead of vague posts about weak classes you will see very detailed and specific bug reports backed up by empirical evidence gained though the use off addons.
People can be UI snobs if they must but like it or not your game is improving because of addons and the people who use themEdited by Hilgara on July 16, 2014 12:24PM2 -
theyancey✭✭✭✭✭
✭They have cursor mode for a reason. I don't use it though. I do like having a minimal instrument panel though. That being said, minimal is the idea with me. I have no visible add-ons.0 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It depends on what I'm doing.
If I'm running around questing, I'll have some mods on that help keep me alive by putting my health bars in front of my face (curved ui).
If I want immersion, I run around in first person point of view and then turn off any mods that clutter the UI.
I like the fact that I can turn on and off my mods depending on what I'm doing in the game.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
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