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Kicked from pug trial group for my playstyle...
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Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
And your point? I've been in many raids and such over the years and ofc there has been bad runs, but I can honestly say every raid I ever ran with my guild were fun. yes maybe we weren't the best groups, but we always (eventually) managed to finish and we had many laughs doing them.
And if you'd had read the other posters comments, you'd realise that the OP was getting blamed for something that may not have been his fault. What's to say the healers weren't shite, or that the tank couldn't hold aggro or the other DPSers didn't stand in the stupid ???
I did read the OP, the only difference between you and me is... I understood it !
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !3 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
And your point? I've been in many raids and such over the years and ofc there has been bad runs, but I can honestly say every raid I ever ran with my guild were fun. yes maybe we weren't the best groups, but we always (eventually) managed to finish and we had many laughs doing them.
And if you'd had read the other posters comments, you'd realise that the OP was getting blamed for something that may not have been his fault. What's to say the healers weren't shite, or that the tank couldn't hold aggro or the other DPSers didn't stand in the stupid ???
I did read the OP, the only difference between you and me is... I understood it !
Ok again please show us a 2 Hand Heavy Armor spec that does good dps in a raid and post the video to set the community free of the burden of staves and light armor!3 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭I actually do agree that the leader in the OP's example is not the worst kind of offender, because they actually bothered to explain their incomplete understanding of why their raid was wiping. A lot of raid leaders would have just kicked them without an explanation...
Please with your eliteness explain to use the correct way of doing the needed dps using 2-Hand and Heavy Armor so the OP can be educated.
There is a difference between 'needed' and 'wanted', and even when dps checks are involved with an encounter, the world does not end when the timer is reached in most cases. It just gets harder the longer it takes...and if your tank(s), healer(s) and other dps are barely cutting it, they are part of the problem too. Don't blame the one guy with the lowest dps just because you can point out something wrong with his build.
And I don't consider myself elite...above average maybe...only a very few can ever be elite, and there are a lot of players better at this game than me...
Well ok being "above average" do you see any advantage to the OP using Heavy Armor instead of Medium Armor for a 2-Hand spec aside from look and "wanting to"?
Can't you see some justification in a group that actually wants to complete an encounter prefering someone who uses the armor that helps their spec instead of the one the just like better or looks cooler to them?
Isn't trying it three times with the guy showing that he is willing to give it a shot even though it wasn't the optimal build?
Yes. If Heavy Armor is level 40+ and Medium armor is lvl10, it doesn't make any sense to use medium. A decent player will do fine in solo play with either, so why not choose the one they like? And honestly, the heavy armor active is damn good for pvp, so if I had to choose between the two to level, I would choose heavy.
you dont need to be wearing any heavy to use immovable LOL i use it in full light for the WS sewere fear flame boss on my sorc tank in all light.1 -
Kulthax✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
The raid was wiping but you are doing the same thing as the raid leader. You assume that it was the OPs fault since visually he appeared to not be toting the light armor and staff line.
How does the group go from beating 2 bosses to wiping on the 3rd and it suddenly is the fault of the heavy armor person? Hell, at this point it could have been anyone for any number of reasons. To say it was the person wielding a 2h sword and wearing heavy armor is a cop out and wrong.
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The problem does not lie with the OP or the group leader. The problem lies with the misconception that certain gear does not work in PvE. How does the group leader know it was the OPs fault that they were failing? There is no DPS meter that allows for everyones DPS to be displayed to each person.
The group leader assumed that it was the OPs fault because of the gear that they were wearing. No other proof that the OP was underperforming. Just an assumption. The group leader became frustrated because they were not succeeding in a pick up group and decided to call out what they thought was the issue by a visual check.
I have read many posts on reddit where heavy armor, 2 handed sword players are used in trials successfully. I feel for you OP because I anticipate running into the same issue. I am a dual wield Nightblade. I will not change my playstyle to fit in line with someone elses. I fully expect to never get 'picked' or to get kicked because of the gear I wear. Not because of my skill or anything else.
First off, there's no misconception about gear. It's a fact that the Heavy Armour is all defensive passives and does not contribute to DPS, unlike medium armour.
Regarding whose fault it was, we don't have enough info to judge the raid leader. The OP could have been standing in the red all the time. Or maybe the raid leader asked him for his DPS reading and rotation on the 3rd attempt and found it unsatisfactory. We don't know anything about what went on.
I have not read anything, anywhere that says a 2H with HEAVY armour is a good DPS. I'd imagine in good teams having one sub-par player is not a problem. Some teams are good enough to carry them some aren't. It's a 12-man trial and when it's failing the leader has to either change tactics, disband or eliminate the perceived weakest link. If he's sure the tactics are right from previous experience the options are limited further.
NOTE: I have grinded with a 2H DK in Balamath that did 900DPS on the Atros. It's doable but you need medium armor and good rotation.
Well the only comment i can make as a DK VR 12 and a sorc Vr 7 is this. there is no Defensive build. Armor is actually useless aside from stat pools . Armor does not increase defesne at the end of the day. the armor value in your CHR screen does and you can raise that past cap through buffs being naked. Tanking in light armor is far superior to Heavy and DPSing light is far superior to heavy. As far a 2 h DK parsing 900 dps in balamath. thats realtively easy all the 2h builds rely heavily on the Dk class abilities. Parsing 900 on a true boss fight with 2 hander is gonna be behind 1200 to 1600 ST destro build . not only that he will not sustain 900 dps ever maybe 600 to 700 and he will likely be getting the bulk of his rotation damage form DK fire passives and class abilites.
Well thank you very much for posting this wall of ignorance, now at least I know to avoid you if I ever see your name in zonechat.
[Wifeaggro13] says: "Light Armor Tank LFG for AA trials"
[Me] says: "No thanks"
Edited by Maulkin on July 8, 2014 6:28PMEU | PC | AD2 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
The raid was wiping but you are doing the same thing as the raid leader. You assume that it was the OPs fault since visually he appeared to not be toting the light armor and staff line.
How does the group go from beating 2 bosses to wiping on the 3rd and it suddenly is the fault of the heavy armor person? Hell, at this point it could have been anyone for any number of reasons. To say it was the person wielding a 2h sword and wearing heavy armor is a cop out and wrong.
Because the third boss is the DPS check?6 -
Vuron✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The problem does not lie with the OP or the group leader. The problem lies with the misconception that certain gear does not work in PvE. How does the group leader know it was the OPs fault that they were failing? There is no DPS meter that allows for everyones DPS to be displayed to each person.
The group leader assumed that it was the OPs fault because of the gear that they were wearing. No other proof that the OP was underperforming. Just an assumption. The group leader became frustrated because they were not succeeding in a pick up group and decided to call out what they thought was the issue by a visual check.
I have read many posts on reddit where heavy armor, 2 handed sword players are used in trials successfully. I feel for you OP because I anticipate running into the same issue. I am a dual wield Nightblade. I will not change my playstyle to fit in line with someone elses. I fully expect to never get 'picked' or to get kicked because of the gear I wear. Not because of my skill or anything else.
First off, there's no misconception about gear. It's a fact that the Heavy Armour is all defensive passives and does not contribute to DPS, unlike medium armour.
Regarding whose fault it was, we don't have enough info to judge the raid leader. The OP could have been standing in the red all the time. Or maybe the raid leader asked him for his DPS reading and rotation on the 3rd attempt and found it unsatisfactory. We don't know anything about what went on.
I have not read anything, anywhere that says a 2H with HEAVY armour is a good DPS. I'd imagine in good teams having one sub-par player is not a problem. Some teams are good enough to carry them some aren't. It's a 12-man trial and when it's failing the leader has to either change tactics, disband or eliminate the perceived weakest link. If he's sure the tactics are right from previous experience the options are limited further.
NOTE: I have grinded with a 2H DK in Balamath that did 900DPS on the Atros. It's doable but you need medium armor and good rotation.
Well the only comment i can make as a DK VR 12 and a sorc Vr 7 is this. there is no Defensive build. Armor is actually useless aside from stat pools . Armor does not increase defesne at the end of the day. the armor value in your CHR screen does and you can raise that past cap through buffs being naked. Tanking in light armor is far superior to Heavy and DPSing light is far superior to heavy. As far a 2 h DK parsing 900 dps in balamath. thats realtively easy all the 2h builds rely heavily on the Dk class abilities. Parsing 900 on a true boss fight with 2 hander is gonna be behind 1200 to 1600 ST destro build . not only that he will not sustain 900 dps ever maybe 600 to 700 and he will likely be getting the bulk of his rotation damage form DK fire passives and class abilites.
Well thank you very much for posting this wall of ignorance, now at least I know to avoid you if I ever see your name in zonechat.
[Wifeaggro13] says: "Light Armor Tank LFG for AA trials"
[Me] says: "No thanks"
Can you please explain why you think this is a wall of ignorance. Everything that he stated is pretty spot on.
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Anastasia✭✭✭✭infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »This scenario is only going to become more common since the VR nerf. You're going to have people getting through VR content without really learning how to play an optimal build or how to adjust their builds for group content.
Don't blame other people because they don't want to carry you. Unfortunately, wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h in trials would most likely mean they'd have to carry you. You might be the exception, but many won't be.
This comes down to the mechanics of the trials and not really the group leaders. These trials require very specific tactics and certain classes/builds just don't fit. This is a development issue.
************"This is a development issue.*************
Yep, its on Zeni's plate.
Sorry but it is a player base issue also, people have become far too reliant on these builds to the point it's pretty much a requirement to use them. Yes Zenimax are the ones who need to fix the sustained and overall DPS of non LA/staff builds but why is there no experienced people out there willing to break the mould in order to highlight the issue?
I personally don't think the top guilds out there whom seem to have the attention of the developers are doing enough to put this issue on the devs plate. It's almost like they are happy the way things are and they don't want every man and his uncle with odd builds clearing trials with high enough DPS without investing heavily into a particular cookie cutter build in order to do so.
I bet if we had a patch right now that fixed these balance issues and made more builds especially non magicka builds viable, the elitists would probably complain about it.
Sorry but your whole post is one big contradiction.
Players will always complain about everything. Players will always advocate for their own personal interests. It's the developer's job to filter it, have a viable vision for their game, and the ability to execute that vision.
You argument is a rationalization akin to saying it's somebody else's fault for you choosing to cheat on your wife because your buddy told you to. In the end the responsibility for the decision rests with the person that makes it. It doesn't matter who said what to them.
No, this is the fault of Zenimax plain and simple and it's their responsibility to fix it.
>>>>***"...have a viable vision for their game, and the ability to execute that vision."
***And to be flexible as they come across challenges, but show they know their stuff and be able to retain customer confidence by staying dedicated to producing the end results/product they set out to. I like my sticks to be straight up for the most part.
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ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭These noobs are the same kids that think covenant gear is good. They all play cookie cutter builds to run trials for......crappy sub par gear?>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
LOL im offended , but not really i have a static though most quit due to the imbalances. We dont do trials anymore as there is no real reward for them the gear is aesthetic .mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »The problem does not lie with the OP or the group leader. The problem lies with the misconception that certain gear does not work in PvE. How does the group leader know it was the OPs fault that they were failing? There is no DPS meter that allows for everyones DPS to be displayed to each person.
The group leader assumed that it was the OPs fault because of the gear that they were wearing. No other proof that the OP was underperforming. Just an assumption. The group leader became frustrated because they were not succeeding in a pick up group and decided to call out what they thought was the issue by a visual check.
I have read many posts on reddit where heavy armor, 2 handed sword players are used in trials successfully. I feel for you OP because I anticipate running into the same issue. I am a dual wield Nightblade. I will not change my playstyle to fit in line with someone elses. I fully expect to never get 'picked' or to get kicked because of the gear I wear. Not because of my skill or anything else.
First off, there's no misconception about gear. It's a fact that the Heavy Armour is all defensive passives and does not contribute to DPS, unlike medium armour.
Regarding whose fault it was, we don't have enough info to judge the raid leader. The OP could have been standing in the red all the time. Or maybe the raid leader asked him for his DPS reading and rotation on the 3rd attempt and found it unsatisfactory. We don't know anything about what went on.
I have not read anything, anywhere that says a 2H with HEAVY armour is a good DPS. I'd imagine in good teams having one sub-par player is not a problem. Some teams are good enough to carry them some aren't. It's a 12-man trial and when it's failing the leader has to either change tactics, disband or eliminate the perceived weakest link. If he's sure the tactics are right from previous experience the options are limited further.
NOTE: I have grinded with a 2H DK in Balamath that did 900DPS on the Atros. It's doable but you need medium armor and good rotation.
Well the only comment i can make as a DK VR 12 and a sorc Vr 7 is this. there is no Defensive build. Armor is actually useless aside from stat pools . Armor does not increase defesne at the end of the day. the armor value in your CHR screen does and you can raise that past cap through buffs being naked. Tanking in light armor is far superior to Heavy and DPSing light is far superior to heavy. As far a 2 h DK parsing 900 dps in balamath. thats realtively easy all the 2h builds rely heavily on the Dk class abilities. Parsing 900 on a true boss fight with 2 hander is gonna be behind 1200 to 1600 ST destro build . not only that he will not sustain 900 dps ever maybe 600 to 700 and he will likely be getting the bulk of his rotation damage form DK fire passives and class abilites.
Well thank you very much for posting this wall of ignorance, now at least I know to avoid you if I ever see your name in zonechat.
[Wifeaggro13] says: "Light Armor Tank LFG for AA trials"
[Me] says: "No thanks"
But i have a heavy wearing DK . and out of curiousity what acheivements do you have as a trial leader. Ive a couple, and all the working achievements in the VR dungeons as tank and heals including speed runs. Anyhow i am more then willing to put a group together and decimate every single VR dungeon on both chrs and you can see there is literally no difference in amount of damage i take as a heavy wearing DK or light armor sorc tank. The armor mitigates nothing its the armor number and i can be 1200 past armor and spell resist cap with two buffs. actually the sorc handles spell damage way better.
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Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭Having a heavy armored player being able to do as much DPS as a light armored player would just break the game further. Then why would anyone wear light armor? Heavy armor wearers should be able to take more damage but do less damage. It's only fair.Edited by Junkogen on July 8, 2014 6:37PM2 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
The problem with this instance wasn't whether, or not, they complete it in 1st or 101st. The problem was whether, or not, they complete it AT ALL.
It was a PUG group. Is it really fair to the other 11 players in the group if one of the players doesn't even care about contributing to the success of the group?
It's not FUN to continually die because someone couldn't be bothered to level a 2nd weapon and put some skill points into a 2nd armor type in order to do a different type of content than soloing through the entire game.
NO, but you are the one assuming the fault lies with the OP ! So you're saying the other 11 players were all great and none of the wipes had anything to do with them???Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
So if you capitalize and put dots between the letters wiping for a fourth time in a raid becomes fun?
No.. but it obviously annoys [Snip] like you, which is indded fun...lol
mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
And your point? I've been in many raids and such over the years and ofc there has been bad runs, but I can honestly say every raid I ever ran with my guild were fun. yes maybe we weren't the best groups, but we always (eventually) managed to finish and we had many laughs doing them.
And if you'd had read the other posters comments, you'd realise that the OP was getting blamed for something that may not have been his fault. What's to say the healers weren't shite, or that the tank couldn't hold aggro or the other DPSers didn't stand in the stupid ???
I did read the OP, the only difference between you and me is... I understood it !
Ok again please show us a 2 Hand Heavy Armor spec that does good dps in a raid and post the video to set the community free of the burden of staves and light armor!
I have at no point said that a 2-hand Heavy set up is optimal, in fact if you'd had the manners to read all the posts I've actually agreed with a couple of people who already said the whole 2-hand/heavy set up is sub-optimal.
That however still does not change the fact the OP is/was getting blamed for the a 12 man group wiping.
As I said...."What's to say the healers weren't shite, or that the tank couldn't hold aggro or the other DPSers didn't stand in the stupid ???"
Yet short-sighted people like you just see one thing, erect the spine of blame and assume its all the fault of one guy ! ! !
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Baiting]Edited by ZOS_LucasA on July 8, 2014 8:20PMHigh Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having a heavy armored player being able to do as much DPS as a light armored player would just break the game further. Then why would anyone wear light armor? Heavy armor wearers should be able to take more damage but do less damage. It's only fair.
I agree1000% but its not how ZOS designed the game. Light armor handles physical damage just as good as heavy and actually handles spell damage way better.3 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭Group leader is a bad. Really bad. He let you join group, ran content with you, wiped three times. It is in fact his fault and he's doing a terrible job of being group leader and wasting other peoples time. If he was good he would've known that the group makeup wasnt good enough before you wiped at all. So the three wipes were probably his fault because he's a crap player and he just takes the easiest scape goat.
You should PM his name so I can teach him how to play his class and give him advice on how not to suck at being a GL.
Ouch SaibotLiu...maybe you're right. But I can guess another scenario...maybe he is one of our players who has a lot of irl commitments right now but would like to partake of the Trials content. Maybe he is learning his way to become better at putting together a solid group for it also.
Maybe that is true. But I honestly think if you're trying to masquerade as a group leader on an MMO, you should display leadership qualities. I like to get things done as much as the next player, we all have time constraints. I don't think saying "you have to do things this way or GTFO" is being a good leader, you work with what you have available to you. To me it doesnt have much to do with how he spoke to the player, he ultimately wanted the player to leave, the end result is the same.
For all the talk on the forums about how we want a challenge, we want to be pro, this scarcely ever crosses the boundary into group content. If for some reason a player is hindering the groups ability to accomplish tasks as easily and effortlessly as possible, those same "hardcore mode" players will have none of it.
If you're in my group, I will do my best to help you. If we fail, but I've helped you become a better player and also have helped myself become a better player, I feel I've done my job. That's my bar, the group leader in the OP has his. And I feel it's well below mine.
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Anastasia✭✭✭✭Burnemdown wrote: »LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.
They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.
LOL
That's kind of the point is it not. They can't see Dps and they need more Dps. So the logical thing to do is kick the Dps with the worst set up for Dps and it does not come much worse than 2 handed with tank armour.
I hate elitism, but that was not elitism, that was a logical decision by a raid leader, who was kind enough to let a Dps with a 2 handed and heavy armour join in the first place.
As someone else pointed out in this thread...though you may think there are no mods or add-ons that show OTHER peoples dps, its easy to figure out a baseline based on information available about the gear the player is wearing, his currently equipped weapon and of course any information he gives out in response to a query about his build.
Its known pretty much how much dps a 2-h, heavy armor player is putting out, even with variables. Especially if the leader does in fact know some of the output of the other players in the group or if he is the other dps ...etc. If its competitive grouping, even pugs, people are going to have to meet some kind of reasonable bar/requirement. He gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew what he was doing (the o-p) and was going to be able to put out decent dps by changing something up on his hotbar probs.
At least the op was given a little info - in many situations, you will be told, "Thanks very much but you need to step out for a replacement." Though I'm pretty sure it isn't always going to be said in that pleasant of a tone. I'd hope so, but doubt it.
Gotta inform yourselves now and find out what is necessary before you start seeking those kind of group spots. It can be hella fun! But so can other more relaxing content in TESO. You get to decide eh?
Edited by Anastasia on July 8, 2014 6:48PM1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.
Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.
Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!
Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.
Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.
I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !
F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !
You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple
The raid was wiping but you are doing the same thing as the raid leader. You assume that it was the OPs fault since visually he appeared to not be toting the light armor and staff line.
How does the group go from beating 2 bosses to wiping on the 3rd and it suddenly is the fault of the heavy armor person? Hell, at this point it could have been anyone for any number of reasons. To say it was the person wielding a 2h sword and wearing heavy armor is a cop out and wrong.
Because the third boss is the DPS check?
Oh my Kitsinni ;o).
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Burnemdown✭✭✭Unfortunately this happens in all MMO's with Raids. You are expected to be using whatever is the fotm best-of build for your class, including having with you all of the required best-of Food/Potions/etc and to be using the standard rotation. Anyone that doesn't fall into the above category usually isn't invited or is kicked immediately without the option to prove they're good at what they do. It's even worse when it has nothing to do with your build but solely the class you are.
I thought we were breaking out of the box? Here in TESO.
Maybe we (they ) should forget instanced raids. It really always just leads to this.
Give us OPEN WORLD raids. Where everyone can participate. Where it takes one and all to take down the bad guys. Even the guy in plate wielding a two hand sword. MHO0 -
Tremulous✭✭✭Out of the Box
Fear me, for I am Krong destroyer of worlds and dreams and link of Horrible Youtube videos that lightly tie relevant information into conversations.1 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »I actually do agree that the leader in the OP's example is not the worst kind of offender, because they actually bothered to explain their incomplete understanding of why their raid was wiping. A lot of raid leaders would have just kicked them without an explanation...
Please with your eliteness explain to use the correct way of doing the needed dps using 2-Hand and Heavy Armor so the OP can be educated.
There is a difference between 'needed' and 'wanted', and even when dps checks are involved with an encounter, the world does not end when the timer is reached in most cases. It just gets harder the longer it takes...and if your tank(s), healer(s) and other dps are barely cutting it, they are part of the problem too. Don't blame the one guy with the lowest dps just because you can point out something wrong with his build.
And I don't consider myself elite...above average maybe...only a very few can ever be elite, and there are a lot of players better at this game than me...
Well ok being "above average" do you see any advantage to the OP using Heavy Armor instead of Medium Armor for a 2-Hand spec aside from look and "wanting to"?
Can't you see some justification in a group that actually wants to complete an encounter prefering someone who uses the armor that helps their spec instead of the one the just like better or looks cooler to them?
Isn't trying it three times with the guy showing that he is willing to give it a shot even though it wasn't the optimal build?
Yes. If Heavy Armor is level 40+ and Medium armor is lvl10, it doesn't make any sense to use medium. A decent player will do fine in solo play with either, so why not choose the one they like? And honestly, the heavy armor active is damn good for pvp, so if I had to choose between the two to level, I would choose heavy.
you dont need to be wearing any heavy to use immovable LOL i use it in full light for the WS sewere fear flame boss on my sorc tank in all light.
No, but you do need to wear it to level it...
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »LOL im offended , but not really i have a static though most quit due to the imbalances. We dont do trials anymore as there is no real reward for them the gear is aesthetic .
But i have a heavy wearing DK . and out of curiousity what acheivements do you have as a trial leader. Ive a couple, and all the working achievements in the VR dungeons as tank and heals including speed runs. Anyhow i am more then willing to put a group together and decimate every single VR dungeon on both chrs and you can see there is literally no difference in amount of damage i take as a heavy wearing DK or light armor sorc tank. The armor mitigates nothing its the armor number and i can be 1200 past armor and spell resist cap with two buffs. actually the sorc handles spell damage way better.
Let's see, well for one you said armour is useless outside of stat pools. That's completely ignoring all the passives and especially the ones useful to the tank which are to a) receive more healing and b) to reduce the cost of blocking c) faster health regen. The resource pools that suffers most when tanking is not magicka, or in fact health, it's stamina.
Secondly, as a DK you have only Razor Armor and naked with Razor Armor you only move past the soft cap for 3.5 secs. You cannot keep casting Razor Armor every 4 secs in a fight so that's pretty much wrong. Heavy Armour plus Razor Armour puts you near the hard cap where you have to be for boss fights like Hel Ra.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that tanking in Light Armour is far superior to tank in Heavy Armour as you so confidently said. What you are doing is DPSing between bosses which is not tanking. I prefer to press one pre-programmed button to go full light when DPSing and another button to go 5H/2L for boss fights.
You can say you like being a versatile tank, or a lazy tank who can't be bothered to make/swap gear. But you can't say that tanking in Light Armour is better than Heavy. That's the ignorant partEU | PC | AD2 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭You cant do the trails with just any setup..Period ... im sorry for all of you that want to play your own style .... the trials are design to challenge the best of groups... I have wiped on that so many times in pickups , we have a hard time getting past the first boss... The peps in heavy that are not tanking stay out of magicka and endo.. With that said they are no longer really helping we are using vital resouces keeping them healed and rezzed... DPS casters being forced to rezz is not good... Healers constantly being forced into rezzing are not healing
You can play u want dont expect to complete all of the content with out someone carrying u...By the way in the trails good luck with that unless you are with some amazing players..... I would love to play two hander in heavy ... however that combo is just not where it needs to be..
I do not belive the group leader was an elitist... He was not trying to break times... he just wanted to finish it... Even the op did not call him an elitist......
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Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »This scenario is only going to become more common since the VR nerf. You're going to have people getting through VR content without really learning how to play an optimal build or how to adjust their builds for group content.
Don't blame other people because they don't want to carry you. Unfortunately, wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h in trials would most likely mean they'd have to carry you. You might be the exception, but many won't be.
This comes down to the mechanics of the trials and not really the group leaders. These trials require very specific tactics and certain classes/builds just don't fit. This is a development issue.
************"This is a development issue.*************
Yep, its on Zeni's plate.
Sorry but it is a player base issue also, people have become far too reliant on these builds to the point it's pretty much a requirement to use them. Yes Zenimax are the ones who need to fix the sustained and overall DPS of non LA/staff builds but why is there no experienced people out there willing to break the mould in order to highlight the issue?
I personally don't think the top guilds out there whom seem to have the attention of the developers are doing enough to put this issue on the devs plate. It's almost like they are happy the way things are and they don't want every man and his uncle with odd builds clearing trials with high enough DPS without investing heavily into a particular cookie cutter build in order to do so.
I bet if we had a patch right now that fixed these balance issues and made more builds especially non magicka builds viable, the elitists would probably complain about it.
Sorry but your whole post is one big contradiction.
Players will always complain about everything. Players will always advocate for their own personal interests. It's the developer's job to filter it, have a viable vision for their game, and the ability to execute that vision.
You argument is a rationalization akin to saying it's somebody else's fault for you choosing to cheat on your wife because your buddy told you to. In the end the responsibility for the decision rests with the person that makes it. It doesn't matter who said what to them.
No, this is the fault of Zenimax plain and simple and it's their responsibility to fix it.
>>>>***"...have a viable vision for their game, and the ability to execute that vision."
***And to be flexible as they come across challenges, but show they know their stuff and be able to retain customer confidence by staying dedicated to producing the end results/product they set out to. I like my sticks to be straight up for the most part.
Exactly.
So far the only semblance of this I've seen on the part of these clowns is a firm unswaying dedication to the theory and implementation of the worst inventory system ever seen in a MMO. LOL1 -
Brandoid✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »This is one of the prime issues with 'end game' PvE in any game. Raid groups players can be so hateful and close-minded. Really, some of the worst in gaming, period.
In PvP they call you a noob and kill you, but in reality, they NEED you to play cause your participation is vital to what PvP is. PvP is all about players playing together.
Competitive PvE, on the other hand, seems to support this type of player too much. They don't want to play *with* you, cause you're not optimal enough.
This is why I will generally only do raids with known groups, and will ignore that community and their opinion outright. I don't think their breed of min-maxing helps the game, or the playerbase, at all. They spend so much time complaining about class balance and optimal builds and NPC layout/mechanics, trying to get the game changed over and over again for 1% of the overall content.
Good luck, Op. Do like me. Don't pug. Don't listen to raiders. And don't let their dirty superiority complex bring you down. PvP instead. We love to have you! (maybe on the opposing team, but still!)
While any weapon combo may work in Cyrodiil (with a restoration staff), rolling around in Heavy Armor is pointless.
Brandoid - Templar - Ebonheart Pack0 -
Milanna✭✭✭grimsfield wrote: »I would have kicked you too... Some things just don't work well in this game atm, unfortunately. You really should respec... and it would be wise to listen to people who offer advice.
That would probably depend on the advice ...EU-server
Mila the True (Aldmeri Dominion)
Milanna the Cold-hearted (Aldmeri Dominion)
Raphael the Cunning (Ebonheart Pact)
NA-server
Cassius Tanicius (Daggerfall Covenant)
I just found garlic, you blood-suckers better stay clear1 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭@DurhamI have wiped on that so many times in pickups , we have a hard time getting past the first boss...
Ahh.. so it was ok for those groups to carry you then ?High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Burnemdown wrote: »LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.
They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.
LOL
That's kind of the point is it not. They can't see Dps and they need more Dps. So the logical thing to do is kick the Dps with the worst set up for Dps and it does not come much worse than 2 handed with tank armour.
I hate elitism, but that was not elitism, that was a logical decision by a raid leader, who was kind enough to let a Dps with a 2 handed and heavy armour join in the first place.
As someone else pointed out in this thread...though you may think there are no mods or add-ons that show OTHER peoples dps, its easy to figure out a baseline based on information available about the gear the player is wearing, his currently equipped weapon and of course any information he gives out in response to a query about his build.
Its known pretty much how much dps a 2-h, heavy armor player is putting out, even with variables. Especially if the leader does in fact know some of the output of the other players in the group or if he is the other dps ...etc. If its competitive grouping, even pugs, people are going to have to meet some kind of reasonable bar/requirement. He gave him the benefit of the doubt that he knew what he was doing (the o-p) and was going to be able to put out decent dps by changing something up on his hotbar probs.
At least the op was given a little info - in many situations, you will be told, "Thanks very much but you need to step out for a replacement." Though I'm pretty sure it isn't always going to be said in that pleasant of a tone. I'd hope so, but doubt it.
Gotta inform yourselves now and find out what is necessary before you start seeking those kind of group spots. It can be hella fun! But so can other more relaxing content in TESO. You get to decide eh?
Totally agree, the RL was not exactly horrid to the op. He even offered some advice, even if it was far too generic advice.
It's a far cry from all the gear score elitists wanting people to have gear 2 tiers higher than the content they are raiding.
The reality is there will always be a minimum standard to do any content. How high that standard is set determine if someone is an elitist or not. Having a standard by itself is just intelligent.Edited by Guppet on July 8, 2014 7:08PM2 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy is good if you are the one tanking the op was not tanking he was dps..
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Stratti✭✭✭✭✭jambam817_ESO wrote: »grimsfield wrote: »I would have kicked you too... Some things just don't work well in this game atm, unfortunately. You really should respec... and it would be wise to listen to people who offer advice.
Jerk.
He's not being a jerk, he's being realistic. Most of the people in this thread talking about elitest players, jerks, and idiots have never done a single trial.
The simple fact of the matter is that the trials are designed a certain way and it comes down to a dps check. The OP might be different, but most people wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h weapon simply aren't effective in trials.
You need a certain amount of sustained dps to beat a trial with a good group, not to mention a pug with little coordination.
If you're using a melee weapon, than you are having to run in and out of range because of boss AoE and other mechanics, which lowers your DPS. If you are wearing heavy armor, than you most likely don't have the resources or the regen to spam skills for 3 straight minutes, which will kill your dps.
Not enough dps=wipe. If you refuse to adjust your build simply because you don't want to, then you can't blame other players for not wanting you in their group.
There are only 2 types of players for trials... those that can help and those that can hurt. Try to be one of the types that can help and you'll be fine.
This is really no different than asking in zone chat for a healer and getting a tank just because he wants to be part of a group.
I think the OP understand this. It is not about the players, it is how the trials were designed.
I haven't started trials yet but have been hardcore raider for a decade and a few things concern me.
1. Nobody knows any real theorycrafting around these encounters yet.
2. We cannot at this time judge someone dps. There is no way of knowing OP dps not like wow where we can see the metre
3. The ONLY way 1 player can be impacting a group on a dps check boss is if the group is bad - that is say there 8 dps and u need 4800 dps . If you only pull 300 and your group fails that means your group was bad not just you. Again if the group was geared they could have carried the drop on a particular encounter - perhaps the next requires melee.
These points led to the conclusion that OP was scapegoated by a pseudo elitist who organised a pug and downed two bosses the all of a sudden it's - THAT ONE'S fault we died.
Sad methinks
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Valn✭✭✭✭✭kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »The 3rd boss (The Wispmother) is a dps check so you should know that heavy armor isnt the way to go for dps as things stand atm.
which is why it's zenimax's fault....3 -
Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »The 3rd boss (The Wispmother) is a dps check so you should know that heavy armor isnt the way to go for dps as things stand atm.
which is why it's zenimax's fault....
Not really. Heavy armour can't ever give the same Dps as light or no one would wear light.1