kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more eleite

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more elite then that.

Not really sure what you are trying to get at. I'm just showing that there is basically no advantage for a non-tank to use heavy over medium. Never stated I was elite in any way. Maybe you can shed some light on the the advantage of using Heavy with a Stamina weapon as a dps?

I am not debating gear disparity or weapon inbalance.
Just pointing out that not 1 person in this thread can say with certainty, that the op was the weak link.
They could very well be an exceptional player who exceededs your expectations and there were others in the cookie cutter specs that did not live up to the cut.
Prove me wrong.
They took the op in there group. they should have finished with them or dis banded. Pug in a guild run I'd assume.

Burnemdown wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more eleite

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more elite then that.

Not really sure what you are trying to get at. I'm just showing that there is basically no advantage for a non-tank to use heavy over medium. Never stated I was elite in any way. Maybe you can shed some light on the the advantage of using Heavy with a Stamina weapon as a dps?

I am not debating gear disparity or weapon inbalance.
Just pointing out that not 1 person in this thread can say with certainty, that the op was the weak link.
They could very well be an exceptional player who exceededs your expectations and there were others in the cookie cutter specs that did not live up to the cut.
Prove me wrong.
They took the op in there group. they should have finished with them or dis banded. Pug in a guild run I'd assume.

Agreed, sounds more like the guy in the thread was an elitist jerk... or most likely just a jerk...lol
Either way he sounds like a real w*nker, Richard-heads like him ruin the game for other players !

The problem does not lie with the OP or the group leader. The problem lies with the misconception that certain gear does not work in PvE. How does the group leader know it was the OPs fault that they were failing? There is no DPS meter that allows for everyones DPS to be displayed to each person.

The group leader assumed that it was the OPs fault because of the gear that they were wearing. No other proof that the OP was underperforming. Just an assumption. The group leader became frustrated because they were not succeeding in a pick up group and decided to call out what they thought was the issue by a visual check.

I have read many posts on reddit where heavy armor, 2 handed sword players are used in trials successfully. I feel for you OP because I anticipate running into the same issue. I am a dual wield Nightblade. I will not change my playstyle to fit in line with someone elses. I fully expect to never get 'picked' or to get kicked because of the gear I wear. Not because of my skill or anything else.

Burnemdown wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more eleite

kitsinni wrote: »

Burnemdown wrote: »

LOL Presumptions and assumptions. How do any of you know who was the weak link in this trial, without a shared dps meter? The forums? LoL.

They should have finished this as a team or disbanded completely.
I can also assume that the 2hand heavy was the only one not in the same guild as the op.

LOL

Just as a guess I don't think it was the 2 hand as much as the combination of 2 hand and Heavy Armor. Neither set does jack for class abilities so that is neutral. The synergies between medium and a stamina build are far better for a non-tank than Heavy.

Lets look at the passives assuming 7 pieces of each
Medium
5% attack speed
14% decreased dodge roll increased sprint speed
14% more stamina recovery
7% crit with physical attacks
7% reduction of cost of stamina abilities
reduction in sneak costs and detection (probably not relevant)

Heavy
7% armor and base spell resist
10% decreased cost of blocking
14% health recovery
3.5% Weapon Damage with melee attacks
3.5% Increased healing recieved

No mention of rotation or standing in stupid? Come on I know you are more elite then that.

Not really sure what you are trying to get at. I'm just showing that there is basically no advantage for a non-tank to use heavy over medium. Never stated I was elite in any way. Maybe you can shed some light on the the advantage of using Heavy with a Stamina weapon as a dps?

I am not debating gear disparity or weapon inbalance.
Just pointing out that not 1 person in this thread can say with certainty, that the op was the weak link.
They could very well be an exceptional player who exceededs your expectations and there were others in the cookie cutter specs that did not live up to the cut.
Prove me wrong.
They took the op in there group. they should have finished with them or dis banded. Pug in a guild run I'd assume.

How exactly can complain about other people for making assumptions and then finish the paragraph with your own assumption?

I would love to see any player who feels they are exceptional to post a video of them doing great dps in a trial with heavy armor and 2-Hand that would help the entire community and would open the door for lots of specs. That includes you please post it if you can produce it!

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

This scenario is only going to become more common since the VR nerf. You're going to have people getting through VR content without really learning how to play an optimal build or how to adjust their builds for group content.

Don't blame other people because they don't want to carry you. Unfortunately, wearing heavy armor and wielding a 2h in trials would most likely mean they'd have to carry you. You might be the exception, but many won't be.

This comes down to the mechanics of the trials and not really the group leaders. These trials require very specific tactics and certain classes/builds just don't fit. This is a development issue.

---

************"This is a development issue.*************

Yep, its on Zeni's plate.

Sorry but it is a player base issue also, people have become far too reliant on these builds to the point it's pretty much a requirement to use them. Yes Zenimax are the ones who need to fix the sustained and overall DPS of non LA/staff builds but why is there no experienced people out there willing to break the mould in order to highlight the issue?

I personally don't think the top guilds out there whom seem to have the attention of the developers are doing enough to put this issue on the devs plate. It's almost like they are happy the way things are and they don't want every man and his uncle with odd builds clearing trials with high enough DPS without investing heavily into a particular cookie cutter build in order to do so.

I bet if we had a patch right now that fixed these balance issues and made more builds especially non magicka builds viable, the elitists would probably complain about it.

Sorry but your whole post is one big contradiction.

Players will always complain about everything. Players will always advocate for their own personal interests. It's the developer's job to filter it, have a viable vision for their game, and the ability to execute that vision.

You argument is a rationalization akin to saying it's somebody else's fault for you choosing to cheat on your wife because your buddy told you to. In the end the responsibility for the decision rests with the person that makes it. It doesn't matter who said what to them.

No, this is the fault of Zenimax plain and simple and it's their responsibility to fix it.

kitsinni wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

I actually do agree that the leader in the OP's example is not the worst kind of offender, because they actually bothered to explain their incomplete understanding of why their raid was wiping. A lot of raid leaders would have just kicked them without an explanation...

Please with your eliteness explain to use the correct way of doing the needed dps using 2-Hand and Heavy Armor so the OP can be educated.

There is a difference between 'needed' and 'wanted', and even when dps checks are involved with an encounter, the world does not end when the timer is reached in most cases. It just gets harder the longer it takes...and if your tank(s), healer(s) and other dps are barely cutting it, they are part of the problem too. Don't blame the one guy with the lowest dps just because you can point out something wrong with his build.

And I don't consider myself elite...above average maybe...only a very few can ever be elite, and there are a lot of players better at this game than me...

Well ok being "above average" do you see any advantage to the OP using Heavy Armor instead of Medium Armor for a 2-Hand spec aside from look and "wanting to"?

Can't you see some justification in a group that actually wants to complete an encounter prefering someone who uses the armor that helps their spec instead of the one the just like better or looks cooler to them?

Isn't trying it three times with the guy showing that he is willing to give it a shot even though it wasn't the optimal build?

Yes. If Heavy Armor is level 40+ and Medium armor is lvl10, it doesn't make any sense to use medium. A decent player will do fine in solo play with either, so why not choose the one they like? And honestly, the heavy armor active is damn good for pvp, so if I had to choose between the two to level, I would choose heavy.

Kulthax wrote: »

The problem does not lie with the OP or the group leader. The problem lies with the misconception that certain gear does not work in PvE. How does the group leader know it was the OPs fault that they were failing? There is no DPS meter that allows for everyones DPS to be displayed to each person.

The group leader assumed that it was the OPs fault because of the gear that they were wearing. No other proof that the OP was underperforming. Just an assumption. The group leader became frustrated because they were not succeeding in a pick up group and decided to call out what they thought was the issue by a visual check.

I have read many posts on reddit where heavy armor, 2 handed sword players are used in trials successfully. I feel for you OP because I anticipate running into the same issue. I am a dual wield Nightblade. I will not change my playstyle to fit in line with someone elses. I fully expect to never get 'picked' or to get kicked because of the gear I wear. Not because of my skill or anything else.

First off, there's no misconception about gear. It's a fact that the Heavy Armour is all defensive passives and does not contribute to DPS, unlike medium armour.

Regarding whose fault it was, we don't have enough info to judge the raid leader. The OP could have been standing in the red all the time. Or maybe the raid leader asked him for his DPS reading and rotation on the 3rd attempt and found it unsatisfactory. We don't know anything about what went on.

I have not read anything, anywhere that says a 2H with HEAVY armour is a good DPS. I'd imagine in good teams having one sub-par player is not a problem. Some teams are good enough to carry them some aren't. It's a 12-man trial and when it's failing the leader has to either change tactics, disband or eliminate the perceived weakest link. If he's sure the tactics are right from previous experience the options are limited further.

NOTE: I have grinded with a 2H DK in Balamath that did 900DPS on the Atros. It's doable but you need medium armor and good rotation.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Group leader is a bad. Really bad. He let you join group, ran content with you, wiped three times. It is in fact his fault and he's doing a terrible job of being group leader and wasting other peoples time. If he was good he would've known that the group makeup wasnt good enough before you wiped at all. So the three wipes were probably his fault because he's a crap player and he just takes the easiest scape goat.

You should PM his name so I can teach him how to play his class and give him advice on how not to suck at being a GL.

---

Ouch SaibotLiu...maybe you're right. But I can guess another scenario...maybe he is one of our players who has a lot of irl commitments right now but would like to partake of the Trials content. Maybe he is learning his way to become better at putting together a solid group for it also.

I give him/her this benefit of the doubt precisely because in that chat log I did not read: "Wth are you wasting our time for scrub?" Nor did I see him only allow the OP ONE TRY to be GUD. Honestly, you don't already have to be pro to start doing pro-content, but you do have to adapt as you are learning, and that includes the group leader. If they tried it a few times and perhaps the dps was the issue being way low -- he had to as a leader, make a decision to change up something. We don't know if in fact he also asked someone else to leave, or replaced other group members either. He treated the OP reasonably well as far as the chat log goes anyhow.

I think he was respectful to the OP, and then went on about trying to figure out why his group wasn't hacking it yet.

I don't think yesterdays' Vet + 1 - 10 nerfage 'caused' this. The requirements will be there in any mmo with competitive endgame content. Yesterday's Vet+ 1-10 nerfage definitely created a fast trak expressway lane on the left though, so more folks are going to reach the 'minimum bar' requirement lines faster without any hand-holding on how they can be their best if they want to compete.

Some don't think any special or additional help should be in place, some do. Fact is, it isn't. So whoever may somehow not have known --have now been forewarned by many vet players about what you will face after Vet +10. We've been discussing it for weeks if not longer. Share the info with others you know who may not come to the forums.

You need to know this if you desire to go on to higher content because this is how ZOS has set up the endgame in TESO. And ZOS did not/has not yet made any adjustments to the stam/magic ratio or other challenges being faced by players - they are 'working on it'.

So...IF you decide you want to continue on into that content, the Trials, the Adventure Zones: you need to know the requirements, research and practice time and you also need baseline information on what it means to be a good group member.

Bramir wrote: »

The OP was kicked from a PUG by what was probably an average player who read about optimal builds on a website. Instead of assessing the entire situation, they blamed everything on one dps who didn't dress the same as them...bet they wiped some more since one dps does not make or break a raid.

and this is exactly what is happening quite often in pugs, normally you have 12 average joes wich are doing their best allready and are hardly able to provide the needed dps values to complete a trial if you than have someone in a far inferior setup you cant choose your skillpill and miracly increase your output by 20+% to carry him.
so in an last attempt you sub that weakest part of your chain and hope that the substitution is atleast able to provide as much as needed or in the bestcase bring even more to compensate one or a few mor others who are aswell not providing the needed values for the enrage timer.
so one sub can definatly make an attempt to finish a trial possible, and atleast happend to me quite some times in ESO and other games before.

One 2Hnd DPSer shouldn't wipe your Trial.
You won't be getting a 9 min time but, you shouldn't be failing either.
The whole raid could be 2HDers and you still shouldn't fail outright.
Bad group.

Bramir wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

I actually do agree that the leader in the OP's example is not the worst kind of offender, because they actually bothered to explain their incomplete understanding of why their raid was wiping. A lot of raid leaders would have just kicked them without an explanation...

Please with your eliteness explain to use the correct way of doing the needed dps using 2-Hand and Heavy Armor so the OP can be educated.

There is a difference between 'needed' and 'wanted', and even when dps checks are involved with an encounter, the world does not end when the timer is reached in most cases. It just gets harder the longer it takes...and if your tank(s), healer(s) and other dps are barely cutting it, they are part of the problem too. Don't blame the one guy with the lowest dps just because you can point out something wrong with his build.

And I don't consider myself elite...above average maybe...only a very few can ever be elite, and there are a lot of players better at this game than me...

Well ok being "above average" do you see any advantage to the OP using Heavy Armor instead of Medium Armor for a 2-Hand spec aside from look and "wanting to"?

Can't you see some justification in a group that actually wants to complete an encounter prefering someone who uses the armor that helps their spec instead of the one the just like better or looks cooler to them?

Isn't trying it three times with the guy showing that he is willing to give it a shot even though it wasn't the optimal build?

Yes. If Heavy Armor is level 40+ and Medium armor is lvl10, it doesn't make any sense to use medium. A decent player will do fine in solo play with either, so why not choose the one they like? And honestly, the heavy armor active is damn good for pvp, so if I had to choose between the two to level, I would choose heavy.

And if his Spoon level was higher than his 2H level, he would been better holding a spoon.

I know it can be difficult to stay on topic but can you please try? We're not talking about PvP or solo questing. Heavy armour is fine for solo play. It definitely is not fine as DPS for trials.

The raid leader correctly pointed out the fault in his build for DPS purposes. If the player cannot adjust to a DPS spec, then a DPS he is not. Whether he was the only reason they were wiping we don't know, but as a raid leader you have to try to find the faults and that one is an obvious one

The 3rd boss (The Wispmother) is a dps check so you should know that heavy armor isnt the way to go for dps as things stand atm.

Phantax wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Redlag wrote: »

Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.

Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.

Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!

Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.

Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.

I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !

F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !

You need to read the OP before posting. It was not a issue chasing times, the raid was wiping plain and simple

Phantax wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Redlag wrote: »

Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.

Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.

Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!

Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.

Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.

I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !

F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !

The problem with this instance wasn't whether, or not, they complete it in 1st or 101st. The problem was whether, or not, they complete it AT ALL.

It was a PUG group. Is it really fair to the other 11 players in the group if one of the players doesn't even care about contributing to the success of the group?

It's not FUN to continually die because someone couldn't be bothered to level a 2nd weapon and put some skill points into a 2nd armor type in order to do a different type of content than soloing through the entire game.

Phantax wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Redlag wrote: »

Welcome to the WoW genre. A few guys crunch numbers show the world how they're suppose to play the most efficiently. Most "elitist" guilds search out the internet, copy the first ones doing it (builds and videos of where to stand etc). Act like they invented it and demand it. All the while never realizing they're just imitating.

Kind of like never fighting in the civil war, but 200 years later reenacting it over and over. Guild A is filled with number cruncher and theorists.. They figure out light armor and staffs are the best route. They get the best time. Guild B, C, D, E,F,G,H....XYZ.. say oh no, we can get the best time. Were the best. But yeah, we'll use your set up because obviously we see its the best. Then they commence to reenacting what they know works.

Which in this game is wearing the same gear. Using the same weapons. Pushing the same buttons. OHHHH!!! We beat your time by two seconds!!

Anyone who doesn't want to adhere is a bad.

Thats not the issue . the trials are not doable with the current limitations on Heavy medium/melee weapon builds. Do you know what a DPs check is? well the trials are full of them. All the builds for all the classes that use Heavy / medium and melee weapons are not able to make them. they are several hundred DPS behind the caster builds. So its not really an elitist attitude its a submission to ZOS design partner. If the content is not Doable unless XYZ build is used in this case all caster Destro/reto swap builds in light armor. then its not really the communites fault its the imbalance and untested end game thats at fault.

I agree with what you're saying but FFS doesn't anybody play this game for fun?
Personally I couldn't give a f*ck if I complete the trial in 1st or 101st place and I'll be honest I haven't even done a trial.
If this is seriously how we as players think, you can shove the trials where the sun don't shine ! ! !

F•U•N all you elitists ... go look it up !

So if you capitalize and put dots between the letters wiping for a fourth time in a raid becomes fun?