The vet mob nerf - who asked for this? Can we find a happy medium?

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · July 2014

Really pissed off about this change dnt think Il be logging back on for a while this just tips me over board, i can cope with lag, bugs but changing the difficulty like this is a joke, why are you doing this ? To get players back and push out the ones that stayed? Well done /big clap

Adrastes · July 2014

they are not even nerfed that bad. bit easier but still atleast in VR 10 areas give challenge.

Darzil · July 2014

Feels more like armour is actually having an effect. Things are easier, but (in heavy/medium) physical attacks are usually doing less damage (unless it's a troll or something) magical ones are still hitting me pretty hard. I can still die pretty quickly without care, I just die less often to luck. Feels like mostly armour/resistance penetration has been dialled back, and some monster health reduction.

The OP may be encountering something else too, the transition from VR5 to VR6 was previously much easier, as you go from last PvE zone difficulty to first PvE zone difficulty in terms of monster density and special attacks. VR1 and VR6 was always pretty easy for that reason, if you take the artificial difficulty out of the equation.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

inspiral1 wrote: »

why are you doing this ? To get players back and push out the ones that stayed? Well done /big clap

Probably to tune the content so that the majority are enjoying it, usually that's how these decisions are taken I expect. They can't please all the people all the time so why would they want to please a small minority at the expense of losing the majority?

sajackson · July 2014

Arato wrote: »

Fighting against 1-3 mobs that can seriously wreck you if you don't play smart is fun and challenging, it encourages you to play smart.

It's when fighting against 1-3 mobs can wreck you even if you do play smart that it no longer becomes fun. I'm at VR9 in my last alliance zone and although the vet content was ok up to about VR7 I've lost count of the number of times I've had to resort to the Templar kiting trick to get some of these mobs down in the last couple of zones. Some mobs I just can't do without another player helping due to the crazy amount of health they have and damage they do. Throw a healer mob in and you're often boned too.

I know the kiting trick is a "strategy", but really it just feels like cheesing the mechanics - the fights can hardly have been designed that way.

So I think it did need to be re-tuned. I haven't had a chance too see how badly nerfed it has all been yet though - sounds like ZOS may have overdone it again unfortunately.

JamilaRaj · July 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

That's not true, for one reason VR was compulsory for anyone that want's to be in PVP or play any new content.

There is a need for solo hardcore area's, but it should be optional content to work side by side with PVP and Raids.

Hardly compulsory. Participating in PvP yields significant amount of exp, equipment, and, upon campaign completion, even money. Actually, if something, then this would be ESO's killer feature; you do not have split time between grind and PvP and you do not have to have maxed out avatar to do something on Cyrodiil in first place.

Beesting · July 2014

I am happy with this change.
The vr difficulty was increased with the craglorn patch, when at the same time the wave of players that went efficiently through all the quests were allready done with it and did not have to do it on the harder difficulty at all and not had to cope with empty VR zones.

As a casual player with a job and family i was planning to have to do all the questing with a friend, but the quests are a pain to do together because before you know it you are not on the same quest step and have to go back or wait for each other. The game does not warn you or help to stay synced while questing.
So the possibility to just do the quests when i have time is great news.

So it made the zones open up to people like me, i might even get the tamriel hero one day now. People that compain about the lowered dificulty can go solo dolmens, lots of the around where no players ever show up, i noticed...

Arato · July 2014

sajackson wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Fighting against 1-3 mobs that can seriously wreck you if you don't play smart is fun and challenging, it encourages you to play smart.

It's when fighting against 1-3 mobs can wreck you even if you do play smart that it no longer becomes fun. I'm at VR9 in my last alliance zone and although the vet content was ok up to about VR7 I've lost count of the number of times I've had to resort to the Templar kiting trick to get some of these mobs down in the last couple of zones. Some mobs I just can't do without another player helping due to the crazy amount of health they have and damage they do. Throw a healer mob in and you're often boned too.

I know the kiting trick is a "strategy", but really it just feels like cheesing the mechanics - the fights can hardly have been designed that way.

So I think it did need to be re-tuned. I haven't had a chance too see how badly nerfed it has all been yet though - sounds like ZOS may have overdone it again unfortunately.

There's plenty of other ways to manage. CC skills, reflects, stuns, knockbacks/knockdowns. I've gotten #rekt by a group of 3 mobs because 2 of them were casters and I wasn't currently slotting a reflect skill. The mobs immediately call "split up" which reduces the effectiveness of my aoes and then kept pelting me from range while I had to deal with the melee that kept power attacking and forcing me to block.

Die, res, change tactics, slot a reflect skill and a pull to negate their ranged spells and bring them into aoes

In 1-50 I never had to use reflects, you could pretty much ignore most casters ranged attacks and just avoid the ground attacks

VR actually made you deal with them.

Mondrely · July 2014

I think they really went overboard with the nerf. While I'll agree that perhaps things were a little difficult at times prior to this patch, I did enjoy the challenge of working out different strategies. Things are far too easy now in the vet zones. A VR12 sorc guild mate of mine was soloing VR10 dolmens yesterday with only his weapons equipped. No one should be able to do that.

Laura · July 2014

i didn't see anyone ask for it until they said they were doing it. then the usual ZoS apologists and a few extra people came in and were talking about how hard it is.

They went way too far with it I think.

instead of fixing weapon builds they just nerfed all the content. Stamina builds work again for a time I suppose but they will still be useless when they get out of vet content.

kevjon74_ESO · July 2014

I had a blast from levels 1-50, and quit at vet 4 because I was no longer having fun. Call me a wuss or tell me my playing sucks, whatever. Doesn't change anything.

I think the moment my preferred playing style (skills I enjoyed using) became nonviable, that's what killed it for me. The whole joy up until then was that I didn't have to game the system by kiting, or be corralled into a certain build. Once that freedom was gone, so was the fun.

Bottom line is that I don't envy anyone who has to try and cater to both hardcore MMO players and casual, solo players. Especially since you can't seem to have a successful MMO without both.

sajackson · July 2014

@Arato‌ I wasn't even aware that templars have a reflect but I'll check that out. Templars have pretty limited cc options (blinding light which often fails and uppercut from two-handed is about it). Problem is that a lot of mobs require you to spam these and block/dodge so if it has more than an insignificant amount of health you'll be out of stam and magika before you've killed it at which point it's game over.

kewl · July 2014

PSA for all of you raging about the vet changes:

Put down the hyperbole sandwich.
Take a breath.
Use this thread as reference, http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1088807/#Comment_1088807
Reformulate your arguments around facts, not anecdotes.
Post something constructive.

I know change is hard. So have a

. I promise, by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel right as rain.

Lunerdog · July 2014

Been testing it this afternoon and yes the difficulty has lessened and you have a bit of an easier time of it, while it was a blanket fix it actually makes the Vet zones feel more balanced and more of a natural progression from the 1 to 49 experience.

It's certainly not the over the top nerf that some of the uber's are wrongly stating it is.

And for any uber's that disagree me... don't waste your breath, after the vitriol some of you lot have been spewing forth just lately I couldn't give a monkey's uncle what you think.

Svann · July 2014

The majority voted with their feet when they skipped vet zones and went straight to craglorn.

Columba · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

hard core players are the ones who leave early, not casuals. casuals can't afford to play 24 hours a day, lol.

With all due respect, do you honestly believe what you say or is it some pointless trolling?

Hardcores stay that's a given, they even stayed after WOTLK happened and every dedicated gamer knows what this stands for.

A Hardcore doesn't give a damn about VR´s, its not his content. They do compete in PVP and PVE rankings.

Casuals however leave when they are done with the game, they don't look for Esports or competition. That's why the VR nerf is so such a slap in the face of them.

Fact is, as soon a Casual reaches VR 12 the game is over for him. Those 1-10 VR´s were the last resort for them, the last bit of fun left in the game after they finished all the story elements at 1-50 so quickly.

I seriously don't know why people always assume a hardcore raider is interested in anything but raiding, but I believe the lack of insight and experience speaks there.

Just check WOW for a day or two and you will find out quickly that Casuals all abandoned that ship and the only people left are hardcores and elites that insults, flame and harass anyone who isn't their high standards.

It's not a given. You have no proof. Your opinion and wishful thinking doesn't make it a given. Logic dictates that many more people will have few hours to play than will those with lots of time to play. Those who might have lots of time (retirees) don't fit the target demographic. Since this is a subscription based game, those causal players that you and other elitists sneer at likely generate disproportionate profits. Secondly, since they don't play as much, they are less likely to get bored and leave. If you think only hardcor players are in Wow, lol. That game epitomizes casual play.

Idart · July 2014

I can solo anchors with my light armor mage without dying now

I used to do it before patch but it involved atleast few deaths. I have never felted that the content was too hard. There were few mobs and certain enemies that were hard but the content in whole was certainly not hard at all. And I'm not a hardcore player. I play few hours 3-5 days a week so I must imagine how boring it is for the really good players.

tinythinker · July 2014

There could be compromises, but, no matter how things are adjusted, there will be wailing and the nashing of teeth on the forums. For example, this sounds like a reasonable compromise to me:

1. Leave the quest mobs in second and third alliance zones as they are now just after the difficulty reduction of 7/7/14.

2. Move the mobs spawning at dolmens halfway back to where they were prior to the change.

3. Move world boss difficulty back to the original pre-change levels.

Zeni still strong gets incentives for grouping, there are more challenges left for those who are bored with the new difficulty level, and those who want to keep soloing quests can do so. The latter would still have to group a lot more in order to complete maps, though.

But even of ZOS reads this and thinks "Brilliant idea!", the day after it is implemented the chorus of angry voices would howl and rage once more.

Darzil · July 2014

Ah, VR8 Swarming Wasps as a nightblade. Many deaths still! Also met a very challenging Orc DK Chieftain with Shaman and other combo. Died a few times there. Definitely not seeing zero challenge faceroll content!

Arato · July 2014

sajackson wrote: »

@Arato‌ I wasn't even aware that templars have a reflect but I'll check that out. Templars have pretty limited cc options (blinding light which often fails and uppercut from two-handed is about it). Problem is that a lot of mobs require you to spam these and block/dodge so if it has more than an insignificant amount of health you'll be out of stam and magika before you've killed it at which point it's game over.

Oh I wasn't talking templars specifically, but my buddy says they do have a reflect skill I'm not sure which one it is though, but that's the kind of thing I liked in veteran content.. was that I had to think about my skills, there was no one bar fits all. Now since the nerf I noticed I really was killing everything with the same bar, in fact I threw on some skills just to gain exp on them to get the morph to rank IV, I wasn't even having to use my full bar, it's like 1-50 where you just kind of ignore most of their attacks unless it'd stun or knock you down and blow them up with the same dps rotation every pack.

They went way overboard.

Sihnfahl · July 2014

Arato wrote: »

my buddy says they do have a reflect skill I'm not sure which one it is though,

Eclipse / Unstable Core being a popular morph.

Reflects all enemy direct-target spells back at them for 5 seconds. Every single one they get off. Not one spell, like a DK. And when Unstable Core ends, the target's a grenade. BOOM to their nearby allies.

sajackson · July 2014

Yeh just been playing with Eclipse tonight - makes fights against magic users pretty damned easy actually (wish I'd thought to try that before).

That said most of my previous troubles have tended to be against hard-hitting high-health melee mobs (the sort of ones you get at the end of a quest chain) because Templar dps is so low that they were just burning down my magicka and stamina before I could even get close to killing them.

Having played tonight I would agree that they do seem to have gone a bit too far with the nerf though - although personally I think some kind of adjustment was needed because not all class combinations were finding it as easy as some people have been describing it.

Anastasia · July 2014

Columba wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

hard core players are the ones who leave early, not casuals. casuals can't afford to play 24 hours a day, lol.

With all due respect, do you honestly believe what you say or is it some pointless trolling?

Hardcores stay that's a given, they even stayed after WOTLK happened and every dedicated gamer knows what this stands for.

A Hardcore doesn't give a damn about VR´s, its not his content. They do compete in PVP and PVE rankings.

Casuals however leave when they are done with the game, they don't look for Esports or competition. That's why the VR nerf is so such a slap in the face of them.

Fact is, as soon a Casual reaches VR 12 the game is over for him. Those 1-10 VR´s were the last resort for them, the last bit of fun left in the game after they finished all the story elements at 1-50 so quickly.

I seriously don't know why people always assume a hardcore raider is interested in anything but raiding, but I believe the lack of insight and experience speaks there.

Just check WOW for a day or two and you will find out quickly that Casuals all abandoned that ship and the only people left are hardcores and elites that insults, flame and harass anyone who isn't their high standards.

It's not a given. You have no proof. Your opinion and wishful thinking doesn't make it a given. Logic dictates that many more people will have few hours to play than will those with lots of time to play. Those who might have lots of time (retirees) don't fit the target demographic. Since this is a subscription based game, those causal players that you and other elitists sneer at likely generate disproportionate profits. Secondly, since they don't play as much, they are less likely to get bored and leave. If you think only hardcor players are in Wow, lol. That game epitomizes casual play.

Columba, this is careless stereotyping of veteran players as being retirees and is no doubt insulting to the over 65-crowd who should be a very welcome segment to any MMO or gaming franchise. I highly doubt that the majority of MMO vets with a few years under their collective belts are a member of AARP yet.

"(retirees) don't fit the target demographic."

Seriously? How crass.

I'm just as sure the target market for most MMO's benefits most from those with more expendable incomes. Its also always a very good thing to be on a path in life that allows one the freedom to choose how much time they have for entertainment, and enjoy finding MMO's that are compelling enough to warrant their long-term subscriptions.

Of course, there is also the point that this target demographic of persons may be more likely to have the wherewithal to be running a very decent rig . Then, I could mention these same vet MMO gamers more than likely enjoy a focus longer than those players who have attention abundance disorder...shown when the latter have to pay attention or concentrate for longer than it takes to glance at a gnats azz as it flits across a computer screen.

I hail those who have a few years of experience in playing games just as I am enthusiastic to new players who are interested in having fun, and make the time to learn along the way. Isn't it fabulous that we have people in TESO of all ages who contribute and are creating a rich social gaming ambiance?!

Sihnfahl · July 2014

sajackson wrote: »

That said most of my previous troubles have tended to be against hard-hitting high-health melee mobs (the sort of ones you get at the end of a quest chain) because Templar dps is so low that they were just burning down my magicka and stamina before I could even get close to killing them.

What level Templar do you have? I'm currently working on a new one, just about 40 now, and I can get bosses. I've done a few world bosses solo.

My rotation is Purifying Light, Dark Flare (for later PvP), then followed up with Reflective Light. When Purifying 'triggers', refresh, then resume Reflective.

Might have to change when I hit Vet content.

Damage is decent... I'll check my combat log next boss fight.

sajackson · July 2014

Sihnfahl wrote: »

sajackson wrote: »

That said most of my previous troubles have tended to be against hard-hitting high-health melee mobs (the sort of ones you get at the end of a quest chain) because Templar dps is so low that they were just burning down my magicka and stamina before I could even get close to killing them.

What level Templar do you have? I'm currently working on a new one, just about 40 now, and I can get bosses. I've done a few world bosses solo.

My rotation is Purifying Light, Dark Flare (for later PvP), then followed up with Reflective Light. When Purifying 'triggers', refresh, then resume Reflective.

Might have to change when I hit Vet content.

Damage is decent... I'll check my combat log next boss fight.

I'm VR9 and am in Bangkorai on my last alliance zone. As I stated in an earlier post it's only really a problem I've encountered in the last couple of zones because the Vet9 & 10 mob health & damage seemed to have scaled up way more than my Templar's damage output.

Don't worry about it now though, after last nights change everything seems perfectly killable again.

AZRainman · July 2014

Idared wrote: »

The difficulty was fine as it was.

No it wasn't fine! VR areas sucked, customers left en masse when reaching VR1 and even the pro-gamer media agencies said it was horrid.

So use your imagination and challenge yourself.. Go play naked with a dagger, if you want challenges. No one needs to cater to your whims that drive off subscribers and drive down revenues.

JamilaRaj · July 2014

AZRainman wrote: »

Idared wrote: »

The difficulty was fine as it was.

No it wasn't fine! VR areas sucked, customers left en masse when reaching VR1

Name six.

AZRainman wrote: »

...and even the pro-gamer media agencies said it was horrid.

Hm, yeah, but that may be because they were not told of blocking and not standing in the red circles.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Idared wrote: »

Hm, yeah, but that may be because they were not told of blocking and not standing in the red circles.

Or more likely they knew how to play and still thought it was horrid'.

Lunerdog · July 2014

Idared wrote: »

AZRainman wrote: »

Idared wrote: »

The difficulty was fine as it was.

No it wasn't fine! VR areas sucked, customers left en masse when reaching VR1

Name six.

AZRainman wrote: »

...and even the pro-gamer media agencies said it was horrid.

Hm, yeah, but that may be because they were not told of blocking and not standing in the red circles.

Stop being ridiculous, Zen has the numbers and knows that people weren't playing the Vet zones because of it and made a decision to do some thing about it.

Sertari · July 2014

Deal with it! They were actually people asking for it like me. I find it tedious to go in a vet area questing where you need 1h to kill just 3 trolls because the quest area is full with them. I gave up on this since although i changed my templar layout i just couldn't get done with them. I had to wait two days for a friend helping me. And yes all the stuff you said about crits and builds is just a nuisance for me. I already had to change my outfit, all skills changed, spell crit and weapon crit potions equipped and still you go down in two hits. If it would be a lag free combat I would maybe able to do it alone, but one time the pressed action is not coming in time you're done. It took me hours to get even a few people coming to help with dolmen in vet areas or bosses since not many did it. Most don't do full quest, just the ones to move quickly on. I am happy for you you have a nice build where you just can go through the areas like nothing. But I want to play my templar how I want, don't want to use just the skills and armour type like everyone, the fun is just gone in vet areas. If you don't wear a skirt and have a staff or super crit weapons you can't make it. This reduced variety a lot and that's maybe the reason noone wants to play there.