do you think vet mode needed a rebalancing

Animus0724 · July 2014

hamon wrote: »

Animus0724 wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

the other poll is flawed imo. simply asking if its was too hard especially on a public poll where your answer is seen by everyone is wrong.

some folk might feel it was too hard to be fun but not too hard to actually do. so this poll is worded in a better way imo

Seems more like an attempt to ride the tail coat of another thread in my HONEST opinion.

The poll I created was a follow up to another thread where I asked the community if they thought vet content was to hard. Hard as in difficulty, I generalized the options on purpose to accurately gather information on the current mindset of players about the difficulty of vet content. It was discussed in the previous thread that everyone agrees vet content is too grindy, so there really was no point in asking that particular question.

On another note, allowing everyone to see what each person voted allows readers to see ahead of what they are about to read. This helps others to quickly find common opinions and gather a better picture of the situation. This is common among debates. Whats the point of hiding what they voted for when they are just going to write it down in their comment.

Also, this thread is in no way better worded, it simply re-worded the thread you have mentioned, which is my thread indeed. So you changed the concept from hard(difficulty) to unbalanced, all you have done is made the choice more vague as many players have different concepts of what unbalanced means. Some people might consider unbalance as "too hard" indeed, but other might see it as the difficulty ramp is too steep or some mobs are too easy while others are ridiculous. All this thread is, is a clone thread.BTW look at the date of the previous thread, it was made before zeni announced vet changes.

well for one thing if everyone is positing about how saying its too hard equals your some sort of "milk drinking noob who needs to l2p" then you have that badge attached to your name for all to see , you dont see how that might discourage a percentage to not poll?

sort of reminds me of "fair and free elections " in places like zimbabwe where guys with guns are hanging about the door to make sure you vote correctly.

on top of that asking if folk feel it needs re-balanced leaves the opinion open that while some folk might not find it too hard might still feel they would like it -re-balanced for the sake of the game..

hence we have a very diffrent outcome it seems.

How can "too hard" mean many things? Can you kill stuff or do you get killed a lot?

again on the whole anonymous thing, everyone types out there answers in the comments anyway and once again, on the subject of "balance" we all agree it does need balance, as in difficulty ramp from 50 to vr1 needs to be tweaked. But were I support a small change to the start of vet content, you support an overall nerf. Yes people at this stage of vet should learn to play, if you can't solo than group up, can't find a group? Join a guild. Find a way to beat it instead of whining and calling for a nerf that obviously caters to a smaller group of individuals who just can't learn to play, there are plenty of guides out there to help, but players that fall in the "whiny boy" category are just too lazy to adjust their play styles. So instead they all group up and call themselves the majority.

Yes zos needs to address an obvious issue, but no they do not need to turn all of vet content into easy mode. I like my success with a real sense of victory thank you.

You simply made a thread and sugar coated it to manipulate the results in your favor. Brandon was indeed right, this thread supports your opinion while the original was generalized for an unbiased result.

Alphashado · July 2014

Laura wrote: »

they should make weapons and builds that aren't viable not suck and make your character increase in power more..

This is treating the symptoms and allowing the disease to fester.

You will all still suck when you get to end game content and we will ask you to leave because you don't know how to roll dodge, block, or use your abilities properly. At some point you will have to learn to play.

You seem to be under some kind of blanket assumption that everyone wants to do dungeons and trials. Many people just want to quest their way to lvl cap in peace w/o having to expose themselves to the kind of elitism you are putting on display.

I have read a few of your posts and it sounds to me like you are in an elite guild with elite players that are forced to solo difficult bosses in order to prove they are worthy of your esteemed guild. That is fine. I respect your particular niche and the right you have to that niche as a paying customer.

But assuming that there is some kind of majority that expects or wants or desires the same kind of elite attitude is a mistake. There are many different demographics in an MMO. TESO doesn't stand for The Elite Society Online.

MeowGinger · July 2014

Animus0724 wrote: »

You simply made a thread and sugar coated it to manipulate the results in your favor. Brandon was indeed right, this thread supports your opinion while the original was generalized for an unbiased result.

Are you trying to say yours was unbiased? You have to be joking.

Animus0724 · July 2014

MeowGinger wrote: »

Animus0724 wrote: »

You simply made a thread and sugar coated it to manipulate the results in your favor. Brandon was indeed right, this thread supports your opinion while the original was generalized for an unbiased result.

Are you trying to say yours was unbiased? You have to be joking.

In what way was it biased? Please educate me on that.

hamon · July 2014

Animus0724 wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Animus0724 wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

the other poll is flawed imo. simply asking if its was too hard especially on a public poll where your answer is seen by everyone is wrong.

some folk might feel it was too hard to be fun but not too hard to actually do. so this poll is worded in a better way imo

Seems more like an attempt to ride the tail coat of another thread in my HONEST opinion.

The poll I created was a follow up to another thread where I asked the community if they thought vet content was to hard. Hard as in difficulty, I generalized the options on purpose to accurately gather information on the current mindset of players about the difficulty of vet content. It was discussed in the previous thread that everyone agrees vet content is too grindy, so there really was no point in asking that particular question.

On another note, allowing everyone to see what each person voted allows readers to see ahead of what they are about to read. This helps others to quickly find common opinions and gather a better picture of the situation. This is common among debates. Whats the point of hiding what they voted for when they are just going to write it down in their comment.

Also, this thread is in no way better worded, it simply re-worded the thread you have mentioned, which is my thread indeed. So you changed the concept from hard(difficulty) to unbalanced, all you have done is made the choice more vague as many players have different concepts of what unbalanced means. Some people might consider unbalance as "too hard" indeed, but other might see it as the difficulty ramp is too steep or some mobs are too easy while others are ridiculous. All this thread is, is a clone thread.BTW look at the date of the previous thread, it was made before zeni announced vet changes.

well for one thing if everyone is positing about how saying its too hard equals your some sort of "milk drinking noob who needs to l2p" then you have that badge attached to your name for all to see , you dont see how that might discourage a percentage to not poll?

sort of reminds me of "fair and free elections " in places like zimbabwe where guys with guns are hanging about the door to make sure you vote correctly.

on top of that asking if folk feel it needs re-balanced leaves the opinion open that while some folk might not find it too hard might still feel they would like it -re-balanced for the sake of the game..

hence we have a very diffrent outcome it seems.

How can "too hard" mean many things? Can you kill stuff or do you get killed a lot?

again on the whole anonymous thing, everyone types out there answers in the comments anyway and once again, on the subject of "balance" we all agree it does need balance, as in difficulty ramp from 50 to vr1 needs to be tweaked. But were I support a small change to the start of vet content, you support an overall nerf. Yes people at this stage of vet should learn to play, if you can't solo than group up, can't find a group? Join a guild. Find a way to beat it instead of whining and calling for a nerf that obviously caters to a smaller group of individuals who just can't learn to play, there are plenty of guides out there to help, but players that fall in the "whiny boy" category are just too lazy to adjust their play styles. So instead they all group up and call themselves the majority.

Yes zos needs to address an obvious issue, but no they do not need to turn all of vet content into easy mode. I like my success with a real sense of victory thank you.

You simply made a thread and sugar coated it to manipulate the results in your favor. Brandon was indeed right, this thread supports your opinion while the original was generalized for an unbiased result.

you hoenstly don't know how too hard cant mean diffrent things to diffrent people? there in lies you problem then i fear.

it can mean too hard to physically complete. which is clearly the rigid definition you want to cling to , and which is also one the least likely folk will admit too.

but then theres too hard for it to be enjoyable. Some folk are obviously able to do it, but dont find it fun (crazy concept )

or too hard versus the rewards for doing it.

or too hard when you have IRL distractions etc..

can you get your head around that now?

what my poll also allows is for folk not to have thir opinions public which is kinda popular in votes the world over. and also for folk who do in fact find it easy for themselves to still vote that it should be made easier for the health of the game. (yes some folk can be in favor for changes that arn't solely focused on a selfish motive)

Svann · July 2014

I really dont think its so different from earlier levels. I die sometimes yea, but so what? The problem for me isnt that its not soloable, but that the zones feel so empty compared to 1-50.

From a medium armor DW NB, if that matters. And no, you arent supposed to solo public dungeons. Solo dungeons yes, public dungeons no.

magpie · July 2014

I'm slowly trudging my way through the VR levels, but it's about half as fun as 1-50 was. It's not too hard to do it, but it is sometimes (often in some areas) too hard for me to enjoy.

The difficulty level isn't my main problem with the VR levels though. I strongly object to having my enjoyment of alt characters lessened by having to do all the three alliances' quests on my main.

SoulScream · July 2014

I said no, I didn't think it was to difficult. I think there should be more things to do and better rewards. I like solo questing and did some group questing. The group dungeons are super fun and I like Cyrodiil. I also like Craglorn but it was really tough to find a group to do the content, which I didn't understand to well. Boring grind versus fun dungeons *shrug*

For me the solo quest progression through veteran was okay but I did other things like pvp, craft, dungeons. I play a templar, now v12.

kieso · July 2014

Another one of these threads? Give it a rest already; we don't even know what this re-balancing entails and remember this upcoming change tomorrow is only a portion of what they plan.

LonePirate · July 2014

VR content absolutely needs to be rebalanced.

The last quest I completed yesterday was the Frighten the Fearsome quest in VR8 Greenshade. This quest requires you to kill some Wood Orcs, where the final boss is accompanied by a melee dealer and a shaman. As soon as you attack (and I always start an attack from stealth when possible), the shaman drops an anti-magic banner rendering your spells inoperable. You're now left with stamina attacks along with the light and heavy weapon attacks. While you deplete your stamina blocking attacks from three VR8 mobs (even though some attacks cannot be blocked), the boss drops his version of the DK standard ultimate which effectively reduces the size of the battlefield in half and it makes the red heavy attack ground effects impossible to see as they are obscured by the standard's effects.

I must have died 6-8 times before I somehow miraculously was able to finish this fight. This is not a L2P issue as I know how to block, bash, interrupt, roll dodge and control crowds. This particular encounter was insanely and sadistically difficult. This absurd level of difficulty has absolutely no place in this game. I play a DK which is alleged to be one of the two easiest classes to play - and I struggled tremendously with this quest.

It's no wonder the VR zones are dead as this exceptionally high level of difficulty is driving off everyone but hardcore and masochistic players. ZOS has/had to do something to make this content more accessible and enjoyable by the vast majority of players.

demenzia · July 2014

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

I really dont think its so different from earlier levels. I die sometimes yea, but so what? The problem for me isnt that its not soloable, but that the zones feel so empty compared to 1-50.

From a medium armor DW NB, if that matters. And no, you arent supposed to solo public dungeons. Solo dungeons yes, public dungeons no.

And yet I could. The only public dungeon I couldn't do solo was the one in Windhelm, that one was tough and needed more than 3 ppl to do. Therefore they should increase the difficulty of public dungeons, cos, yes, you're not supposed to do them solo.

Salacious · July 2014

Vet content needs a rebalance.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

demenzia · July 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

I must have died 6-8 times before I somehow miraculously was able to finish this fight. This is not a L2P issue as I know how to block, bash, interrupt, roll dodge and control crowds. This particular encounter was insanely and sadistically difficult. This absurd level of difficulty has absolutely no place in this game. I play a DK which is alleged to be one of the two easiest classes to play - and I struggled tremendously with this quest.

It is absolutely normal to die 6-8 times when you fight a boss. What's the point of having them in the game then? Do you expect them to be like skeevers or what? Oh, wait, I've seen a thread where ppl complain about skeevers...

demenzia · July 2014

Double post. Delete pls

Evergnar · July 2014

Rebalancing is really the best way to put it, so ty OP.

Armianlee · July 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

VR content absolutely needs to be rebalanced.

The last quest I completed yesterday was the Frighten the Fearsome quest in VR8 Greenshade. This quest requires you to kill some Wood Orcs, where the final boss is accompanied by a melee dealer and a shaman. As soon as you attack (and I always start an attack from stealth when possible), the shaman drops an anti-magic banner rendering your spells inoperable. You're now left with stamina attacks along with the light and heavy weapon attacks. While you deplete your stamina blocking attacks from three VR8 mobs (even though some attacks cannot be blocked), the boss drops his version of the DK standard ultimate which effectively reduces the size of the battlefield in half and it makes the red heavy attack ground effects impossible to see as they are obscured by the standard's effects.

I must have died 6-8 times before I somehow miraculously was able to finish this fight. This is not a L2P issue as I know how to block, bash, interrupt, roll dodge and control crowds. This particular encounter was insanely and sadistically difficult. This absurd level of difficulty has absolutely no place in this game. I play a DK which is alleged to be one of the two easiest classes to play - and I struggled tremendously with this quest.

It's no wonder the VR zones are dead as this exceptionally high level of difficulty is driving off everyone but hardcore and masochistic players. ZOS has/had to do something to make this content more accessible and enjoyable by the vast majority of players.

I finished this one yesterday myself. I ended up clearing all other mobs near them then hitting them with stun effects and my ulti before even going in. Shaman went down fairly easy that way and I kept changing between boss and melee until melee finally went down... had to keep dancing and the fight took longer than I would have liked for the pissy reward. Had the reward been decent I would have loved the difficulty of this fight. As it was I just felt like I had a slap in the face.

Corew · July 2014

I'd probably be ok with most of the content if everything else worked as it should.. I don't know how many times I've hit weaponswap to heal and nothing happens, hit it again and fine it worked.. proceed to heal and it has swapped again, yay. Things like that, mostly I just feel like I have to get lucky to beat certain boss encounters, if it was just a matter of figuring out mechanics/strategy then fine.

Malpherian · July 2014

Looks like the majority of the individuals who have voted, agree with ZOS that the Vet Zones are broken, and need re-balancing in one way or another.

Tabbycat · July 2014

I think most of the players who voted No are worried that ZOS will overly nerf the Veteran Zones making them less fun to play. However, I also think that pretty much everyone can agree that the rewards for Veteran Content are far to minimal.

shehieb17_ESO · July 2014

It was not about balancing, it was about design flaws. They made awful mistake by designing crappy veteran content: lame job of refactoring already existing content and sharing that across all factions. Every engineer knows how lame and lazy design ends up eventually. ZOS just abused the notoriety of their franchise, hoping it will be enough to cut the corners and get away with that. Guess today's gaming community is more organic and ruthless against cheapness, which is good.

hamon · July 2014

shehieb17_ESO wrote: »

It was not about balancing, it was about design flaws. They made awful mistake by designing crappy veteran content: lame job of refactoring already existing content and sharing that across all factions. Every engineer knows how lame and lazy design ends up eventually. ZOS just abused the notoriety of their franchise, hoping it will be enough to cut the corners and get away with that. Guess today's gaming community is more organic and ruthless against cheapness, which is good.

totally agree

EinionYrth · July 2014

demenzia wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

I must have died 6-8 times before I somehow miraculously was able to finish this fight. This is not a L2P issue as I know how to block, bash, interrupt, roll dodge and control crowds. This particular encounter was insanely and sadistically difficult. This absurd level of difficulty has absolutely no place in this game. I play a DK which is alleged to be one of the two easiest classes to play - and I struggled tremendously with this quest.

It is absolutely normal to die 6-8 times when you fight a boss. What's the point of having them in the game then? Do you expect them to be like skeevers or what? Oh, wait, I've seen a thread where ppl complain about skeevers...

It is, yes. However that should be about working out a successful strategy and then implementing it, if you finally get through a fight and it feels like it was just blind luck that got you there, then something is wrong somewhere.

Soloeus · July 2014

hamon wrote: »

the other poll is flawed imo. simply asking if its was too hard especially on a public poll where your answer is seen by everyone is wrong.

some folk might feel it was too hard to be fun but not too hard to actually do. so this poll is worded in a better way imo

Tabbycat wrote: »

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

Level 50+ and 50++ content will still be more difficult than normal level 50 content, but easier to solo than it is now. So, yes, a middle ground.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/117132/veteran-system-changes-preview

You can also view the Developer Tracker to easily see the two posts I quoted.

Exactly.

I see this as ESO learning their Solo/Casual Audience and appealing to them for PVE. They still have plenty up the sleeve for Extreme MMO Pro Sports players and Hardcore players.

MMO's have lots of audiences and finding a middle ground is no easy task. I see this as a good thing. 2/3 of the game is Vet Content.

Leave some stuff for groups only to force us to form social bonds yada yada but don't make it 2/3 of the games zones. I like some teamwork but not always.

Audigy · July 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

they should make weapons and builds that aren't viable not suck and make your character increase in power more..

This is treating the symptoms and allowing the disease to fester.

You will all still suck when you get to end game content and we will ask you to leave because you don't know how to roll dodge, block, or use your abilities properly. At some point you will have to learn to play.

You seem to be under some kind of blanket assumption that everyone wants to do dungeons and trials. Many people just want to quest their way to lvl cap in peace w/o having to expose themselves to the kind of elitism you are putting on display.

But assuming that there is some kind of majority that expects or wants or desires the same kind of elite attitude is a mistake. There are many different demographics in an MMO. TESO doesn't stand for The Elite Society Online.

And you could not level to the cap? I mean, if you already struggle on your way to 50, do you think that demanding nerfs is justified?

Fact is, everyone could discover the full story of the game. 1-50 is very easy, you don't need anyone, you don't need gear you can pretty much solo pull every group with ease.

So what are you complaining about?

And yes there are many different people in an MMO; that's why catering to the type you represent (too hard to level) is wrong. You only annoy everyone else, that's why it should stay optional to do it easy or hard.

1-50 is easy and while I think its wrong, I can accept this as I am a tolerant person and will be happy if you are happy with that.

You however demand that every content is that easy, even though you saw the full story already and don't need to do VR´s at all. This is just very disrespectful and rude towards other gamers, you need to be more tolerant about other human beings and don't only see your own interests in a game.

You had your will with the 1-50, so let others theirs with the VR´s please.

Tavore1138 · July 2014

Yes it needed balancing but not loads.

A handful of solo boss encounters needed thought. The spacing & makeup of some cave/surface mobs needing consideration. Some big mobs had too much HP and fights were long but repetitive. The correction of the Craglorn mob buff fixed most of the 'too hard' issues.

Overall a blanket reduction in difficulty seems unneeded if class skills are fixed & the few unbalanced encounters get balanced.

But then maybe that is what they will do.

Alphashado · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

they should make weapons and builds that aren't viable not suck and make your character increase in power more..

This is treating the symptoms and allowing the disease to fester.

You will all still suck when you get to end game content and we will ask you to leave because you don't know how to roll dodge, block, or use your abilities properly. At some point you will have to learn to play.

You seem to be under some kind of blanket assumption that everyone wants to do dungeons and trials. Many people just want to quest their way to lvl cap in peace w/o having to expose themselves to the kind of elitism you are putting on display.

But assuming that there is some kind of majority that expects or wants or desires the same kind of elite attitude is a mistake. There are many different demographics in an MMO. TESO doesn't stand for The Elite Society Online.

And you could not level to the cap? I mean, if you already struggle on your way to 50, do you think that demanding nerfs is justified?

Fact is, everyone could discover the full story of the game. 1-50 is very easy, you don't need anyone, you don't need gear you can pretty much solo pull every group with ease.

So what are you complaining about?

And yes there are many different people in an MMO; that's why catering to the type you represent (too hard to level) is wrong. You only annoy everyone else, that's why it should stay optional to do it easy or hard.

1-50 is easy and while I think its wrong, I can accept this as I am a tolerant person and will be happy if you are happy with that.

You however demand that every content is that easy, even though you saw the full story already and don't need to do VR´s at all. This is just very disrespectful and rude towards other gamers, you need to be more tolerant about other human beings and don't only see your own interests in a game.

You had your will with the 1-50, so let others theirs with the VR´s please.

I have had enough of this garbage from you. I have had enough of your insults. You think you have me figured out don't ya? If you ever bothered to read the majority of my posts, you would notice that I have never once said that I find the content too hard to progress though. If you would take a break from rudely lashing out at everyone on this forum that disagrees with your view, you would have noticed that I never once said that I was struggling with VR content.

In fact, I am a pretty damned good gamer. I have a V9 Templar that I am doing just fine with. But unlike many people here, I do not like to mention this because I am not interested in flexing my epeen at the expense of making other people feel bad. I often get compliments on my healing and I often get asked questions for advice. I am very helpful and supportive of anyone that needs assistance or aid. So again, let me make this clear to you ok? VR content is not too hard for me. Nor have I ever said it was.

But I am not blind. I can see and think outside of the box. I have many friends that have left because they didn't like how the unforgiving content made it tedious. I firmly believe that one of the main reasons VR zones are empty is because many people feel this way. I like this game and I want it to succeed. I do not like seeing my friends leave. I do not like seeing empty zones. And most of all, unlike many people with your attitude, I fully understand the ramifications of guild rosters over flowing with inactive accounts.

I want this game to succeed. So even though I do not struggle with VR content, I firmly believe that if it isn't adjusted, the population will continue to dwindle. Yes of course that is debatable. But I believe it, therefore I am going to support it. I could not be any less selfish because in my view I am supporting this change in order to help the game grow in population and stop the bleeding.

If you disagree, then fine. I have also said many times that I respect the opinion of every paying subscriber. But posts like this one I quoted make it almost impossible to be impartial or understanding to your cause because you just casually toss around blanket insults and accusations that you really don't have the slightest Idea about.

Every instinct wants me to lash back at you. Every instinct wants me to insult and belittle you just like you keep doing to me in this and other threads. But ya know what? Lashing out is easy. Restraint is much harder. Try it sometime.

Nathano · July 2014

Have the changes gone live? I have downloaded the patch and am playing at the moment but notice no difference.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Nathano wrote: »

Have the changes gone live? I have downloaded the patch and am playing at the moment but notice no difference.

Are you on the EU server?

Nathano · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Nathano wrote: »

Have the changes gone live? I have downloaded the patch and am playing at the moment but notice no difference.

Are you on the EU server?

Yes

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Nathano wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Nathano wrote: »

Have the changes gone live? I have downloaded the patch and am playing at the moment but notice no difference.

Are you on the EU server?

Yes

Then, as usual, your maintenance will be happening later today (or early tomorrow... I'm never sure about the time differences between the US and Europe). So no changes would have gone live for you yet.