Nerf Hireling Alts!

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Malpherian wrote: »

You dont even need to log on those alts once you get that perk, . Mail is account wide you'll receive it on any character (Checked this earlier on my main, logged on him and mail from my alts hireling was in my inbox).

As an OCD crafter I absolutely LOVE this feature.

If hireling mail is delivered to a character that isn't the owner of the hireling THAT is broken IMO.

SFBryan18 · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And this has any relevance to the situation you're calling an exploit .. how?

I said it seems like one. If the devs want people to do it, then it obviously isn't. Drop the smart ass attitude. I just think it's a lame feature, and I don't give a *** what other MMO's did.

crislevin · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

And when people level their real alts they can receive full benefits of a real alt.

This doesn't impact those people. It only impacts people who create alts to decon everything and skill up crafting perks to get Hirelings then only log in once a day to get the materials.

This doesn't impact people who level or play their alts.

completely disagree, if people wants to be craftmasters w/o going through tedious questline, I have zero problem with that.

kitsinni · July 2014

There is nothing specific about gold upgarde mats for VR12 or any level You can upgrade your level 4 gear to gold if you want to. Gold is not a rare VR12 upgrade mat it is a pretty common mat to upgrade anything at any time. Othere than the upgarde mats everything else is irrelevant. You can have 0 skill in crafting and just break down gear and have 1000's of every top level wood/cloth/metal in the game.

Again There is nothing specific about gold upgarde mats for VR12 or any level untill they put in an upgrade mat specific to VR12 you have no argument. Those low levels have 100% as much claim to having them as a VR12.

Milanna · July 2014

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

It's big boys game

You know, girls and women aren´t unicorns. We do exist.

Even on the internet .

Zero_Tolerance · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

blahblahblah

I'm not talking to you. And that's the second time you seem to think I am. L2R?

The rest of the stuff you post is summed up in the quote above and doesn't require much answer. But I'll burst some bubbles for you - this game doesn't have any economy to talk about and everyone has access to same char slots and skills - so everyone can have same hirelings. What's your problem then? Too lazy to make some alts and check them daily?

Also, I do recommend some other hobby for you if you really think whatever I posted before was bullying or insulting. Oh ah, also you used what you call 'a condescending statement' twice when answering to me.... BRB, calling my lawyer.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

Milanna wrote: »

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

It's big boys game

You know, girls and women aren´t unicorns. We do exist.

Even on the internet .

Big girls and women are welcome too, though size doesn't matter they say.

Fairydragon3 · July 2014

Milanna wrote: »

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

It's big boys game

You know, girls and women aren´t unicorns. We do exist.

Even on the internet .

YOU LIE!!!!

AlexDougherty · July 2014

Shiroro wrote: »

It's a pretty hefty investment to take alts from 12-->32 in crafting and level 3 hirelings = 7 alts worth of level 1-2 hirelings. Why shouldn't someone who blows that much on mats be rewarded?

Yep, and if you level them up enough to get the points, you may as well play them properly, I can't believe many people would create seven or so alts just to get mats, talk about a waste of time.

No, I'm sure anyone who invests that much time and effort will be playing them as alts not mat generators.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · July 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Shiroro wrote: »

It's a pretty hefty investment to take alts from 12-->32 in crafting and level 3 hirelings = 7 alts worth of level 1-2 hirelings. Why shouldn't someone who blows that much on mats be rewarded?

Yep, and if you level them up enough to get the points

You can take a level 3 and get all open-world skyshards, that's a lot of SPs. I've done that several times.

Soloeus · July 2014

Inco wrote: »

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

I spent a LOT of time on leveling my ALT's Skill's and Character level to get enough skill points to max out hirelings. So what if my ALTS are level 10 and have 40 level crafting... I did the time and effort to level my crafting.

You start paying my SUB... then you can tell me how to play the game.

They already fixed hirelings via MAIL. You get the "Correct" mail now on respective ALTS hirelings and not able to open them all on a main for max rewards. Bad enough we have to LOGIN TWICE a day to collect our mats.

Kalann_Pander · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

My suggestion is simple:

Attach the Hireling Rewards to both Character Level AND Skill Level. This would correct all balance issues.

There are NO balance issues.

I'll just point it out : This thread is useless until you fully explain what the problem is. A high majority of posters here see no problem whatsoever.

Whatever your perceived slight, it's insignificant compared to the benefits expressed elsewhere in this thread by players opposing your suggestion.

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Some of the members here don't deserve a response. No logic, just bull *** because they're afraid they might lose something.

I've explained in a previous post the benefits hirelings have for me, and how unpleasant it would be for me to lose them. Other players have similarly voiced their reasons for using hirelings, the amount of investment necessary, and the measured benefits they get out of them.

Qualifying those posts as BS is just offending. Now, if you get a kick out of making our gaming experience worse .....

Please, both of you, take your negativity elsewhere.

Try to think positive for once. Instead of asking to nerf hirelings, ask for boosts to other methods of gaining crafting mats. You might find you'll have more support.

Soloeus wrote: »

Disagree in a civil manner, and contribute something to the conversation or shut your trap.

Civil contributions (i.e my previous post, page 3, and others) do not seem to be answered to, although you readily jump on insulting posts and call them out.

mumok · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

The problem I see is that they are encouraging us to create pointless characters to do things that we should be able to do on one character alone. Eight characters so seven of them can carry stuff? Why not just skip all the bull *** and give us the space. For the guy who thinks it's funny because "other MMO's did it", I don't give a *** what they did. This is a new game, and perhaps whatever those games did was just plain stupid. Things get better, and a feature like this is so ridiculous, I refuse to exploit it. And I'm a player who money glitched in GTA5, so it's not the exploit I care about, it's the bull *** waste of time creating pointless characters when I only want the space. It's like all you narrow minded people don't see that the system should just be better and not force us to do this crap.

Aww, so sweet, must be his first game. Didn't learn yet what exploit and feature is either, too bad.
By your amazing logic, everything I killed once should just die next time I'm there, 'cos you know, since I can do it once or hundred times, it is a pointless waste of time to make me fight it again, right? I mean, when I only want the loot, why do I have to repeat same runs, kill same monsters etc. It is all a waste of time.

Seriously though, nothing else to give out about but hirelings? And I'd love this thread to be a troll, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be.

Must be your first game if you think a free farm like this is healthy for the economy of the game. Must also be your first forum you have signed up for. Try reading the rules and you will see something about a code of conduct. Condescending statements like the one you make is akin to bullying and that shows you don't even have basic Civics and Conductivity in social settings.

My idea stands as a good one; if you want your alts to craft for you, great. But that implies PLAYING the character. Playing the character doesn't mean logging it in once a day to get free Rosins, Tempering Alloys and Dreugh Waxes 8x a day every day on characters you never intend to play.

I have to assume that you have never had a level 3 alt with a hireling. Because if you had you would know that NO ONE is getting rich off of what they send. For the most part what all hirelings send is a joke, 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3.

edwar368 · July 2014

mumok wrote: »

Snip
I have to assume that you have never had a level 3 alt with a hireling. Because if you had you would know that NO ONE is getting rich off of what they send. For the most part what all hirelings send is a joke, 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3.

Hey!! I love the onions and garlic I get off my 3/3 Provisioning hireling :'(

Soloeus · July 2014

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

There are NO balance issues.

I'll just point it out : This thread is useless until you fully explain what the problem is. A high majority of posters here see no problem whatsoever.

Whatever your perceived slight, it's insignificant compared to the benefits expressed elsewhere in this thread by players opposing your suggestion.

I already explained the cheapness of the tactic of creating characters you don't use except to log in once a day. This impacts the game economy by making crafting upgrade mats less valuable than they should be and over time worthless because everyone with their self-sufficiency (a good thing) and hireling alts (a bad thing) will ruin the market.

The only positive is Gold Gear won't be an "exclusive club" thing. However this doesn't mean each character should have 5 free gold suits.

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Disagree in a civil manner, and contribute something to the conversation or shut your trap.

Civil contributions (i.e my previous post, page 3, and others) do not seem to be answered to, although you readily jump on insulting posts and call them out.

I don't agree to those posts and am still considering how to approach them. It took no effort to lash out at the bullies and trolls. However in order to properly address you and configure your post (and a few others which agree with you) into my stance. I will have it by tonight I am sure but I also know that you (and some of the posts that agree with you) have valid points I want to properly address when I have more time.

Fairydragon3 · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Kalann_Pander wrote: »

There are NO balance issues.

I'll just point it out : This thread is useless until you fully explain what the problem is. A high majority of posters here see no problem whatsoever.

Whatever your perceived slight, it's insignificant compared to the benefits expressed elsewhere in this thread by players opposing your suggestion.

I already explained the cheapness of the tactic of creating characters you don't use except to log in once a day. This impacts the game economy by making crafting upgrade mats less valuable than they should be and over time worthless because everyone with their self-sufficiency (a good thing) and hireling alts (a bad thing) will ruin the market.

The only positive is Gold Gear won't be an "exclusive club" thing. However this doesn't mean each character should have 5 free gold suits.

Just because I don't use them now doesn't mean I won't. I knew this game would have issues in the beginning so I concentrated first on an Omni crafter, leaving more skillpoints to be invested in combat for my other characters, while still able to reap the benefits of the hirelings and crafting buffs.

Each of my alts have carefully picked names/ classes and races which I made on day one, so I had plenty of different play styles available. I had to level my crafter to learn crafting faster. It goes super slow if you are not deconing the higher level items.

Note I just don't like the account bound idea, but your idea about having it linked to the characters level and crafting skill, well that has already been implemented

Syrrisdevlin · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

The best way to approach this would be to tie the Perk to Character Level AND Skill Level. This would reward people who have hirelings on real alts while denying the benefit to people who just make 7 characters for hirelings.

I think some one just stumbled a crossed the old YouTube vid of players making alts putting their first 3 skill pints in to hirelings getting the chests and then opening those chests on their mains to get the high lvl mats from a lvl3 alts hireling.....FYI zenimax already fixed this by removing the chests in the mail now hirlings only send mats = to the char in witch the hireling works for so you no longer get high lvl mats from low lvl alts

Soulharvester · July 2014

Oh a friend of mine told me about the hireling emails, he told me to read them lol.

I never read em before, I just clicked through, well, I read one and man they are really good! Very funny and very well done!

Alphashado · July 2014

I guess my question is: Why does anyone really care? Everyone pays $15.00 per month for 8 character slots. What they do with those slots is their business. That's the way I see it. If they want to create 8 mules purely for hirelings, then who cares? Just my 2 cents.

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

The only positive is Gold Gear won't be an "exclusive club" thing. However this doesn't mean each character should have 5 free gold suits.

Haha, ok that's pretty funny. Your perception of the drop rate for gold mats is just a weee bit elevated there. For me to accumulate enough materials, at the current rate my hirelings are sending them, to make 5 "free" (and they aren't free) gold suits, would take until approximately May of next year. That's cloth. At the rate I'm getting tempering alloys I will never be able to make gold heavy armour.

And what about the loads and loads of blue and purple upgrade mats you have to burn just to get there? Those don't exactly fall like rain either.

You also aren't factoring in the various instances in which these materials are being constantly reabsorbed into the system, ie: destroyed. People get tired of their armour, gold or otherwise... they want to try new set bonuses or new looks, new VR levels are added and so on. We don't get those mats back during decon. You get maybe one gold temper out of each piece if you're very very lucky, usually none at all. On top of this your idea of 'rare' and ZoS' idea of it are just plain different. If you are at all familiar with the Elder Scrolls series you should know that we are nowhere near 'true' rarity yet. None of the great daedric artifacts have even been mentioned yet, and no ES game is ultimately complete without them.

Bottom line is this Soloeus. You started a thread with a generally condescending tone and premise, telling people what they should and shouldn't be allowed to do with their own characters (or at least that's how we all perceived it) in what is inherently a personal endeavour, and now you're acting like a milk drinker when people finally lose their patience and 'civility' with you. You have one or two people agreeing with you and now four pages (and rising) of disagreement and increasing hostility since you seem unable to acknowledge anyone's opinion but your own as valid. Your idea has proven deeply unpopular, and touched several nerves, sorry mate. Just leave it.

Now here's what really concerns me about hirelings. Just who are they exactly? Has anyone ever met any of them? Doesn't it seem a little frightening that Valinka and Miss Firi can simply replicate themselves at will for our needs, infinitely? And PACROOTI. Holy crap. That guy scares me. He wants to put ALL of the trees in a box and he ATE his horse when it refused to respond to a command.

These 'people' are willing to part with all of these materials, gold or otherwise, twice a day, every day, forever, in exchange for a one-time gift of... skill points. Just WHAT are they doing with all those skill points. What kind of monstrosity requires that many of them for its abilities?

I'm predicting an invasion of hireling clones, clothed entirely in SKILL POINTS, squashing Tamriel under their collective boot at some point.

Riptide · July 2014

I don't think the OP's idea is off the wall, it is a strange system.

Here is the thing, the market doesn't seem to have a glut of mats at the moment. Ideally if the hirelings required more like a 12 or so in crafting, and provided 3 times the mats, it would be less overall logging out/in and all that.

But it isn't broke, it works, and so in a game with lots of important todos I find myself *shrugging at this one.

Fairydragon3 · July 2014

ramasurinenpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

The only positive is Gold Gear won't be an "exclusive club" thing. However this doesn't mean each character should have 5 free gold suits.

Now here's what really concerns me about hirelings. Just who are they exactly? Has anyone ever met any of them? Doesn't it seem a little frightening that Valinka and Miss Firi can simply replicate themselves at will, infinitely? And PACROOTI. Holy crap. That guy scares me. He wants to put ALL of the trees in a box and he ATE his horse when it refused to respond to a command.

These 'people' are willing to part with all of these materials, gold or otherwise, in exchange for... skill points. Just WHAT are they doing with all those skill points. What kind of monstrosity requires that many of them for its abilities?

I'm predicting an invasion of hireling clones, clothed entirely in SKILL POINTS, squashing Tamriel under their collective boot at some point.

turns out that's the first expansion

Nyghthowler · July 2014

I vote to nerf this post...

Srugzal · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

The best way to approach this would be to tie the Perk to Character Level AND Skill Level. This would reward people who have hirelings on real alts while denying the benefit to people who just make 7 characters for hirelings.

And why would you want to do this? Is it just innate meanness? Surely you realize there are many legitimate ways to play this game. So many people scream "NERF!" when they really mean "MAKE EVERYONE PLAY THE WAY I WANT!"

Time to relax, man.

MeowGinger · July 2014

I don't really see the problem either.

Hirelings on low-crafting-level alts were only "worth" it when they were chests that could be opened on any character, but that was fixed a while ago. Now you'd need 12+ skill points per craft per character to routinely get blue/purple improvement materials with high chances for daedra hearts/palladium/etc. and veteran raw materials.

Maxed hirelings only significantly benefit people with very limited play time, and only if they log on, like clockwork, every 12 hours.

Green improvement materials are common and cheap, selling for less than 40 gold, and the hirelings are irrelevant to their availability. If you want to place blame for a ruined economy, put it on the ridiculous availability of improved gear. In an hour or two of running around the world -- killing regular enemies, opening treasure chests, destroying dark anchors, completing quests -- and deconstructing the gear I collect along the way, I get more improvement materials than I do from my hirelings in a week.

Usually, refining a few stacks (~2 hours of gathering) of veteran raw material gives me more blue, purple, and gold improvement materials than I get from my maxed-out hirelings in a week...

Soloeus · July 2014

The problem:

1. Once hireling 3 status is achieved (which does take work) the character never need "work" again. The character can just produce free Tempers and Trait Stones without ever doing anything.

2. Because everyone can do this, the market for these items is bound to bust. The only items that sell hot are Tempers, Motif's, High End Potions, Purple Food and all of these items take work to achieve. They are also consumables. In the case of potions and food, the mat is consumed to created a consumable item on a 3/1 "trade." With other crafting the items created are not consumable. They are often bound to your account. They cannot be sold.

3. For these reasons, blue/purple/gold Tempers, Trait Stones and other things are headed the way of 0g Race Crafting Stones. They will have no value unless you sell under what it is worth. This is because people will just save up their items indefinitely until they can make "the perfect gear set."

4. The market adds to this Decon Items; most gear pieces are only purchased by players for 2 reasons; either to research a trait or deconstruct it. This means most Gear cannot be sold unless the item is priced around 150-500g per item regardless of green/blue and regardless of level 30 or V12 gear.

Hirelings themselves are wonderful. They give the player wider access to materials they might otherwise never find. However when everyone can create alternate characters for hireling purposes they lose the need to participate in the economy. For the better of the game, us players need to be forced into the economy for Crafting purposes.

Hireling Alts are also the best way to get Gold/Purple materials. You would have to deconstruct an awfully lot of Void Iron to get enough Crafting Tempers to make a gold suit. The time spent harvesting and the value of the work in doing that is reduced by the ability to circumvent the harvesting/deconstuction.

I want players to have options. I want players who have characters of a Skill Point AND Character Level (not just one but both) to be rewarded "above" characters who are level 15 with hireling 3.

This is my response to the critics who have had great replies that disagree with me. There is a problem; it hasn't hit the fan yet but it's on the way.

For those who respectfully disagree with me, I would like to hear your feed back about rewarding a level 36 character with Hireling 3 "slightly above" a level 10 character with Hireling 3. Would this be fair?

DeLindsay · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

The problem:
2. Because everyone can do this, the market for these items is bound to bust. The only items that sell hot are Tempers, Motif's, High End Potions, Purple Food and all of these items take work to achieve. They are also consumables. In the case of potions and food, the mat is consumed to created a consumable item on a 3/1 "trade." With other crafting the items created are not consumable. They are often bound to your account. They cannot be sold.

3. For these reasons, blue/purple/gold Tempers, Trait Stones and other things are headed the way of 0g Race Crafting Stones. They will have no value unless you sell under what it is worth. This is because people will just save up their items indefinitely until they can make "the perfect gear set."

4. The market adds to this Decon Items; most gear pieces are only purchased by players for 2 reasons; either to research a trait or deconstruct it. This means most Gear cannot be sold unless the item is priced around 150-500g per item regardless of green/blue and regardless of level 30 or V12 gear.

Hirelings themselves are wonderful. They give the player wider access to materials they might otherwise never find. However when everyone can create alternate characters for hireling purposes they lose the need to participate in the economy. For the better of the game, us players need to be forced into the economy for Crafting purposes.

Hireling Alts are also the best way to get Gold/Purple materials. You would have to deconstruct an awfully lot of Void Iron to get enough Crafting Tempers to make a gold suit. The time spent harvesting and the value of the work in doing that is reduced by the ability to circumvent the harvesting/deconstuction.

For those who respectfully disagree with me, I would like to hear your feed back about rewarding a level 36 character with Hireling 3 "slightly above" a level 10 character with Hireling 3. Would this be fair?

Cut you're response down to the the brass tax to save space. The market for legendary upgrades has gone UP in the past 3 months, not down. On EU for example it's normal to see them selling for 4K each, NA it's 2.5-3.5K. Those prices started around 1.5-2K back near to launch.

Everyone CAN do full Hirelings, but I can guarantee you many won't because they don't have the time, can't be bothered to, or just don't care.

Hirelings are not remotely the best way to get upgrade mats, refining is. Most players that purchase raw ore/wood/cloth for 1-1.5K and sell the epic/legendary upgrades get a price that FAR exceeds the cost in mats. It only takes 1 epic and 1 legendary in 2 full stacks of refining to make a crazy profit.

I've had all Hirelings since about the 2nd day of launch (I started in 5-day early access). They range from 1/3 to 3/3 and I have never sold a single Legendary upgrade. I've gotten a few from refining but I don't purchase raw materials for that purpose. In those 3 months I've received enough Legendary mats to make ONE SINGLE set of gear for ONE character. Well, unless I did full Heavy Armor because I don't seem to get those nearly as often. That's not remotely game breaking or market breaking in any way.

No, it's not remotely fair or balanced to give any benefit to a player that is higher character level than another player just because you think it should be that way. BOTH characters did the exact same work, BOTH characters should receive the same chance of items.

Soloeus · July 2014

In PVP a level 30 has benefits over a level 10 based only on level and "what comes with level" (skill points, better gear).

Same with hirelings. A hireling should give better things for higher level characters than lower level ones.

DeLindsay · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

In PVP a level 30 has benefits over a level 10 based only on level and "what comes with level" (skill points, better gear).

Same with hirelings. A hireling should give better things for higher level characters than lower level ones.

The character level 30 in PvP did MORE WORK that the character level 10 did. If a character level 30 and a character level 10 both got to 9/9 (level 40+) in Clothing for example and had 3/3 talented in Hirelings they should receive exactly the same chance at items as the other, because they both did the SAME WORK to get there.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2014

get real op. you're just jealous.