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Improvements for Stamina-Based Skills and Passives
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Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
All Ive been hearing out of you since the bash nerf is kvetching that your dps is trash.
You need to go through my posts again, ya bitching about talons being broken has everything to do with dps. Or the nerf magma armor, ya thats over dps as well. Or that when they nerfed bash, shield and hvy armor dont seem to block mitigate anything. Yes all about dps. Im glad you are happy with your stick and skirt fotm dk, but news flash many dont play fotm.
Scuse me?
My dks's 1h/s and dw heavy armor, thank you very much.
In fact, Im pretty sure I mentioned that in this thread. The one you keep meglecting to read properly.
Yes yes you think dk tanks are op, you are one of a handful of fools. But keep blindly defending it, as we all can see how empty the server is now.
Never said they were op.
Pretty sure you're raging for the sake of raging.
If you're so unhappy with it, quit.2 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
Well, getting hit isn't what causes equipment damage, its simply killing something in PVE that gives you exp/vet exp (not keep or resource guards). Dieing and killing PCs and keep/resource guards in PvP wont get you any noticeable equipment damage.
But I said this earlier in the thread. Already there are plenty of reasons to use medium armor over heavy, and i've already been getting my medium armor traits researched to switch over before this stamina buff announcement was even made. I just wish I had started major med armor research earlier in the game.
Medium already reduces a lot of costs to just about everything you use in cyrodil. Sneaking cost reduction, Roll Dodge cost reduction, stamina regen increase (which in turn allows you to block more), sprint speed increase, you need all that in cyrodil. What you get from heavy armor, you need none of it. Theres also a large amount of widely used attacks that aren't even blockable and will decimate you. Talons and other roots will cause you to have to dodge roll, and medium makes that cost less. The bonuses from heavy armor do nothing for you. Dead in seconds without damage being increased by any realistic amount.
Its not much better when going through the veteran levels of PvE. Vet enemies cut through heavy armor like its not even there, and its true because I let it get completely damaged and its like theres little change.
They need to roll out some of their planned changes to heavy armor very soon.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its not much better when going through the veteran levels of PvE. Vet enemies cut through heavy armor like its not even there, and its true because I let it get completely damaged and its like theres little change.
This is the VR mobs' armor and spell pen at work.
Armor works properly before 50. It's broken as all get out after.0 -
Remove stamina from the sprinting and cc break and gives us another bar for that and we will be fine.. The problem is that we do everything with stamina as melee.. we fight, we run, we dodge thats why its not viable... Hope you see the problem and give all classes a seperate bar for CCbreak and sprint/sneak...Edited by sir_vasb16_ESO on June 23, 2014 8:12PM5 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭sir_vasb16_ESO wrote: »Remove stamina from the sprinting and cc break and gives us another bar for that and we will be fine.. The problem is that we do everything with stamina as melee.. we fight, we run, we dodge thats why its not viable... Hope you see the problem and give all classes a seperate bar for CCbreak and sprint/sneak...
I could see maybe a separate bar for CC break, but sneak and sprint?
I think that becomes just a "pay attention" type of concern. I mean, CC is something that's done -to- you, you don't have any choice in the matter and having a dedicated means to break out seems like it'd be a nice amenity. But sneaking and sprinting, those are things you're doing to yourself.
If you're charging into a fight at a dead sprint; that's your fault. If you're sneaking across a football field before striking rather than waiting until you get a little closer to drop into sneak and strike... Again, that's your fault. No reason you should should get a dedicated resource just because you're incapable of making wise decisions about whether or not you're too tired to start a fight.Edited by ShedsHisTail on June 23, 2014 8:33PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?4 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
The problem with that is that I could be a light armor tank and still get the same job done. Heavy armor sucks that bad. Stamina drained out from blocking doesn't hide the fact that armor drains incredibly too fast. The worst player to play in any dungeon would be the tank. They have to spend more on repairs, gain less loot than all other players, and then lose total effectiveness in pvp.
The only thing I find awkward bout this though is in PVP I did run into a sorc tank that was the best tank in the game. He tanked over 25 people at once. He had 4kish HP somehow... That was a monster.
1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about. As For not having any problems tanking neither am i, Because its not really tanking its DPS with a taunt. Everyone who is having problems with this role would not survive a second as tank as a tank in Pre 2009 EQ 2. Agro management is not boring nor is it an unskilled posistion. I generaly Feel Zos watered down this role way to much its DPs with a taunt and Blocking an animation on occasionEdited by Wifeaggro13 on June 23, 2014 11:52PM4 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about.
Well said, but to the fanbois, Hy Brasil isnt sinking.0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Paladin_echo1 wrote: »As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
The problem with that is that I could be a light armor tank and still get the same job done. Heavy armor sucks that bad. Stamina drained out from blocking doesn't hide the fact that armor drains incredibly too fast. The worst player to play in any dungeon would be the tank. They have to spend more on repairs, gain less loot than all other players, and then lose total effectiveness in pvp.
The only thing I find awkward bout this though is in PVP I did run into a sorc tank that was the best tank in the game. He tanked over 25 people at once. He had 4kish HP somehow... That was a monster.
Again, armor damage comes from xp gain. Not how often or hard youre hit.
Theres been plenty of threads about it.
Thats why just tagging along healing a group in a pd and not getting hit leaves you with a repair bill.0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about. As For not having any problems tanking neither am i, Because its not really tanking its DPS with a taunt. Everyone who is having problems with this role would not survive a second as tank as a tank in Pre 2009 EQ 2. Agro management is not boring nor is it an unskilled posistion. I generaly Feel Zos watered down this role way to much its DPs with a taunt and Blocking an animation on occasion
Tanking mechanics are fine.
Armor issues affect everyone, not just tanks. And pre 2009 EQ2 tanking was easier than vanilla wow aoe tanking on a warrior. Everything in EQ2, including some taunts, were encounter based. Paladin? Some of the better aoe threat at the time.
I tanked on my bloody Brigand in 2007-2008. People act like tanking is somehow difficult.
Its only hard until you stop trying to compensate for stupid.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Many of you have asked what we’re doing to make skills, passives, and builds based on stamina more viable and as attractive as the magicka-based options. Below is a first look at some of the improvements we’re making to stamina-based skills and passives. As with all our balance efforts, this is an ongoing process and there will be more to come. We look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Bow: Poison Arrow- Poison Arrow’s damage-over-time has been increased by 50% overall.
Bow: Snipe- Snipe’s cast time will be reduced from 3 seconds to 2 seconds.
- Snipe’s maximum range will be reduced from 40 meters to 35 meters.
- Snipe’s minimum range will be reduced from 20 meters to 10 meters.
Dual Wield: Flurry- The damage for Flurry’s final hit will be increased by 10%.
Medium Armor- With the Wind Walker passive, medium armor will reduce stamina costs by 2% per piece equipped.
Two Handed: Cleave- Cleave’s damage-over-time will be increased by 25% overall, and scale as the ability ranks up.
Two Handed: Uppercut- Uppercut’s damage will be increased by 10%.
- Uppercut’s global cooldown after use will be reduced by 50%.
Pitiful. Your serioously addressing ranged melee first? Are you serious right now? Are you trolling us?
Bows have the weakest dps by far of all of the stamina-based melee weapons, outside of 1h&shield which is by design a defensive weapon line.
Why would you not address the weakest weapon first?
Also, "ranged melee" is an oxymoron. : P2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o
WoW had a class designed entirely around dodge for tanking.
Bear druids.
They ended up adding a debuff to a raid that reduced dodge chance because upping the hits wasnt enough. Bosses were hitting almost hard enough to one shot.
Bears cant block and Im unsure if they can parry(warrior/dk tank... warrior is a block tank and dk a parry/absorb tank), so they redesigned it to be a literal meat shield. Savage Defense now absorbs damage and they have high armor/hp so they can just eat the damage instead.
Dodge tanking is also annoying because if rng hates you and you dont dodge anytbing but really need to, youre getting flattened. And its always your fault. Remember that.
I like the active blocking here, but armor... might as well not be wearing any.
And then they created Monk tanks. : )0 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭Please pay attention to this next one for bow. Can you guys lower the cost of Acid Spray? It costs 435 stamina. That is the bulk of the problem with the stamina moves. They just cost way too much stamina for all the stuff that stamina is used for... Even when you get the upgrades to the moves that cut down on the moves, they still are not good enough in cost and end up burning the user out.1
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Paladin_echo1✭✭✭Again, armor damage comes from xp gain. Not how often or hard youre hit.
Theres been plenty of threads about it.
Thats why just tagging along healing a group in a pd and not getting hit leaves you with a repair bill.
Is this true? So when Im grinding just normal the EXP is what damages my armor? No wonder I am grinding naked so often. I hope they change armor repairs to deaths only or something... That severely sucks. Luckily since they made magic so OP I have been grinding naked and exploiting the crap out of it. Sadly the heavy armor tanks once again end up sucking up the cost with little results... Poor things are bad at defense and also have to pay money for worthless defense and offense in stamina and repair bills.
Also for magic over stamina... Magic gets Volcanic Rune which beats the crap out of most people in pvp and pve while stamina gets no such aoe. There is no stamina AOE in the game at the moment that does anything remotely close to as much devastation as that move in CC. It be nice if the bow had an aoe knockback that didn't cost the entire stamina bar in 3 shots.Edited by Paladin_echo1 on June 24, 2014 2:49AM0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o
WoW had a class designed entirely around dodge for tanking.
Bear druids.
They ended up adding a debuff to a raid that reduced dodge chance because upping the hits wasnt enough. Bosses were hitting almost hard enough to one shot.
Bears cant block and Im unsure if they can parry(warrior/dk tank... warrior is a block tank and dk a parry/absorb tank), so they redesigned it to be a literal meat shield. Savage Defense now absorbs damage and they have high armor/hp so they can just eat the damage instead.
Dodge tanking is also annoying because if rng hates you and you dont dodge anytbing but really need to, youre getting flattened. And its always your fault. Remember that.
I like the active blocking here, but armor... might as well not be wearing any.
And then they created Monk tanks. : )
The SD change came with MoP.
Cant stand monk tanks from a healer pov.
Either theyre really good, or have my geared to the teeth druid healer needing to drink because theyre a mana sponge.0 -
Eivar✭✭✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o
WoW had a class designed entirely around dodge for tanking.
Bear druids.
They ended up adding a debuff to a raid that reduced dodge chance because upping the hits wasnt enough. Bosses were hitting almost hard enough to one shot.
Bears cant block and Im unsure if they can parry(warrior/dk tank... warrior is a block tank and dk a parry/absorb tank), so they redesigned it to be a literal meat shield. Savage Defense now absorbs damage and they have high armor/hp so they can just eat the damage instead.
Dodge tanking is also annoying because if rng hates you and you dont dodge anytbing but really need to, youre getting flattened. And its always your fault. Remember that.
I like the active blocking here, but armor... might as well not be wearing any.
And then they created Monk tanks. : )
The SD change came with MoP.
Cant stand monk tanks from a healer pov.
Either theyre really good, or have my geared to the teeth druid healer needing to drink because theyre a mana sponge.
IMO in wow all tanks fall into those 2 categories, thoguh I will agree a few classes are generally easier to heal. I personally was playing a "geared to the teeth" fistweaver, punching my way to better health! lol0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I disagree far far more dynamics in a six man group with true cc and true support roles. Ive tanked everything in this game and have all the working Dungeon achievements. tanking in ESO is extremely easy and requires very little planning or communication.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about. As For not having any problems tanking neither am i, Because its not really tanking its DPS with a taunt. Everyone who is having problems with this role would not survive a second as tank as a tank in Pre 2009 EQ 2. Agro management is not boring nor is it an unskilled posistion. I generaly Feel Zos watered down this role way to much its DPs with a taunt and Blocking an animation on occasion
Tanking mechanics are fine.
Armor issues affect everyone, not just tanks. And pre 2009 EQ2 tanking was easier than vanilla wow aoe tanking on a warrior. Everything in EQ2, including some taunts, were encounter based. Paladin? Some of the better aoe threat at the time.
I tanked on my bloody Brigand in 2007-2008. People act like tanking is somehow difficult.
Its only hard until you stop trying to compensate for stupid.
And i doubt you tanked instances like Nizara or maidens with a BrigandEdited by Wifeaggro13 on June 24, 2014 3:08AM0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »Paladin_echo1 wrote: »I only wish now they would also put the spotlight on Heavy armor actually doing its job instead of being as effective as light armor. At least medium armor gives you stamina to tank whereas heavy armor doesn't offer enough protection to be effective. Starting to see a large trend in tanks moving over to medium armor for evasion instead of heavy armor because of how bad defense just sucks for tanks. Its actually a smart move because if the enemy misses you, at least you don't take damage rather than getting your armor eaten up by each hit... The armor points drain way too fast as well in the vet area... One second your armor is good, like 2 seconds later its all the way down to 0 in repairs and your money...
Tanks need stamina too. Hope they make it easier on them.
As a 10 year healer and 5 year tank, I *hate* evasion tanking.
The solution always ends up with stupid high spike hits and thats no fun to heal through with only hots(non temp healers) and without on demand DR Im getting face creamed.
Id rather they svoid that.
With no combined years of tanking but a little bit of healing, I understand what you mean. Dem spikes are rough.
But I still think it's a cool idea, not sure how well it'd work for balance in this game though o.o
WoW had a class designed entirely around dodge for tanking.
Bear druids.
They ended up adding a debuff to a raid that reduced dodge chance because upping the hits wasnt enough. Bosses were hitting almost hard enough to one shot.
Bears cant block and Im unsure if they can parry(warrior/dk tank... warrior is a block tank and dk a parry/absorb tank), so they redesigned it to be a literal meat shield. Savage Defense now absorbs damage and they have high armor/hp so they can just eat the damage instead.
Dodge tanking is also annoying because if rng hates you and you dont dodge anytbing but really need to, youre getting flattened. And its always your fault. Remember that.
I like the active blocking here, but armor... might as well not be wearing any.
And then they created Monk tanks. : )
The SD change came with MoP.
Cant stand monk tanks from a healer pov.
Either theyre really good, or have my geared to the teeth druid healer needing to drink because theyre a mana sponge.
IMO in wow all tanks fall into those 2 categories, thoguh I will agree a few classes are generally easier to heal. I personally was playing a "geared to the teeth" fistweaver, punching my way to better health! lol
I wanted to roll with my mw but Kat wanted my druid so....0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
I disagree far far more dynamics in a six man group with true cc and true support roles. Ive tanked everything in this game and have all the working Dungeon achievements. tanking in ESO is extremely easy and requires very little planning or communication.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about. As For not having any problems tanking neither am i, Because its not really tanking its DPS with a taunt. Everyone who is having problems with this role would not survive a second as tank as a tank in Pre 2009 EQ 2. Agro management is not boring nor is it an unskilled posistion. I generaly Feel Zos watered down this role way to much its DPs with a taunt and Blocking an animation on occasion
Tanking mechanics are fine.
Armor issues affect everyone, not just tanks. And pre 2009 EQ2 tanking was easier than vanilla wow aoe tanking on a warrior. Everything in EQ2, including some taunts, were encounter based. Paladin? Some of the better aoe threat at the time.
I tanked on my bloody Brigand in 2007-2008. People act like tanking is somehow difficult.
Its only hard until you stop trying to compensate for stupid.
And i doubt you tanked instances like Nizara or maidens with a Brigand
Maidens yes. Nizara, no one in my raid guild even wanted to go near it and you didnt pug Nizara. Ever.
One of my favorite instances still though. Chrono down to 70 and plow through it for giggles.
Speaking of Fallen Dynasty, Chel'Drak is a b to solo. Both my mystic and inq did it but the archetype specific adds kinda suck, even when its grey. Was after the raid trophy for my alts' guild hall.0 -
My Suggestions to fix heavy armor:
Heavy Armor
Resolve - Reduce all damage taken by X% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped (1% would be OK).
Constitution - Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 28%. And Reduces cost of skills 1% per piece equipped. Max bonus 7%.
Juggernaut - Increases Weapon Damage with melee attacks by 3% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 21%. (The real damage increase will be 5-7%, so not much)
Bracing - Decreases cost of blocking by 20% when a Heavy Armor set of 5 or more pieces is equipped.
Rapid Mending - Increases healing received by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. Max bonus 14%.
Actives armor skills now require two pieces of armor type to be used.Edited by arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO on June 24, 2014 10:59AMDebon Templar VR14 Thorn Blade (EU)
Gaunnes DK VR14 Haderus (EU)1 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy armor should:
- increase defense CAPs.. there is enough armor/resistance otherwise, just caps need to be higher to make us NOT lose most of the stat due to overcharging
- bonus weapon damage doesn't seem to work. Or it at least doesn't add any weapon damage to Weapon Damage stat on the character screen. Maybe it means that it's going OVER the cap, maybe it just means it doesn't work at all. Personally I haven't noticed any difference.
- there is already block cost reduction in Shield tree. Most ppl who take heavy armor are not actually tanks (though some of them do), but ppl using 2h weapon, and those CAN'T block due to looooong weapon swings.
- from the lore viewpoint, heavy armor should BY ITSELF allow it's user to ignore the damage done by LIGHT PHYSICAL ATTACKS. They should just bounce off. Unless the force is too much (heavy attack, aka thrusting a weapon through cuirass) or it's attacked by spells (have you ever been locked in an armor that's fired up to the point of almost melting? I can't imagine it would feel too good
)
For those who think heavy should be worse than medium for dps:
- it already is, and it will be even more - medium gets 21% crit, 28% stamina regeneration, 10% attacks speed and in next big patch it will even get 14% stamina cost reduction. Heavy ONLY has 7% melee dmg. That means that medium will be able to dish out about twice as many abilities as heavy, while still hitting them harder. (not to mention 28% reduction to roll dodge cost, which is pretty substantial)
- since medium users are already hitting more effectively, and way more often, I really think heavy 2h builds should get a buff - for example +42% of HEAVY attack damage (hitting those looooooooooong swings bit harder, since there is not enough stamina regeneration to use abilities with those huge costs), or +21% weapon damage for abilities using weapon damage stat. Current 7% is not even noticable.
Also, anyone found ANY use for "Arcane Fighter" passive in 2h line? Like, I'd get it on destro staves, but wtf is it doing on 2h line? Is it a staff passive in 2h line? I mean, staves ARE technically two-handed weapons, but they are not marked as ones for that purpose anyway, and I doubt 2h weapons have any "elemental effects" other than enchants, which already have an internal cooldown..
Why not rework that passive to give 2h a fighting chance?
More or less I agree with you when comes to Heavy armour.
Light attacks should bounce off.
Armour mitigation should be applied.
Indeed 7% damage is pitiful at face value and not worth, for no other reason other as 2H power cap is 184 at V8 (181 at V7)
But here comes something else.
Buff this, Buff that, Buff everything.
In Cyrodiil we already die fast. Soon even faster with all those buffs. I see no point to play a game where the person who has the least lag wins, and there is no defence, nor protection, not even a change to fight back.
These are my thoughts, and until ZoS gives us a 30K HP buff bonus there, I would prefer a massive nerf on staves and magicka based abilities (eg standard) than buffing everything for faster kills.
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Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »WOW color me SHOCKED there is MORE Stamina reduction cost on TOP of the 20% you already get from melee weapons WOW. Medium Armor is going to rock.
Unless you don't want to use melee weapons.
Also, the reduction in distance for Snipe is terrible for PVP.
Member of the Old Guard - Closed Betas 20130 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
I disagree far far more dynamics in a six man group with true cc and true support roles. Ive tanked everything in this game and have all the working Dungeon achievements. tanking in ESO is extremely easy and requires very little planning or communication.Wifeaggro13 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »The silence on 1h & s is deafening, I guess we know how ZOS feels about tanking.
1h/s tanking is fine.
Your complaints are about its dps.
No actually its about the tanking skills and blocking and heavy armor being generally useless. About tanking taunts and cc that dont work. Its about tanking survivabilty not being there, but hey read something else into that why dont you.
Like I stated before, I'm not having any issues with Tanking. Neither is @Sakiri. We could have a civilized discussion about technique. But you seem content with trolling and playing our class poorly.
Ummmmmm whoa whoa whoa. Personaly i have a DK in heavy VR12. Sorc VR 5 in light. It hs nothing to do with Playing a class poorly what it has to do with there is literally no difference between light and heavy in mitigation. I tank with my sorc in light and it is vastly supperior to my DK in heavy. Why ? because Magic regen is superior i can run CC and AOE DPS with Dumb lightning armor and be 1200 over armor cap and spell resistance. Heavy armor does not mitigate anything , the armor number does.
There not being any additional cap for heavy armor nor bonus to mitigation its simply broken honestly its a broken armor system. The block reduction is laughable and a 3.5 % extra healing is as well. It is imbalanced completely, Quite fronkly all the nerfs to DK just leveled the dress and stick spec and ruined the Medium and heavy spec even further. Why because bitching in PVP and a couple of skilled guys made some insane Solo DK videos. If you have not noticed the end game population is leaving in droves over the very things Ragnar is so called Kevetching about. As For not having any problems tanking neither am i, Because its not really tanking its DPS with a taunt. Everyone who is having problems with this role would not survive a second as tank as a tank in Pre 2009 EQ 2. Agro management is not boring nor is it an unskilled posistion. I generaly Feel Zos watered down this role way to much its DPs with a taunt and Blocking an animation on occasion
Tanking mechanics are fine.
Armor issues affect everyone, not just tanks. And pre 2009 EQ2 tanking was easier than vanilla wow aoe tanking on a warrior. Everything in EQ2, including some taunts, were encounter based. Paladin? Some of the better aoe threat at the time.
I tanked on my bloody Brigand in 2007-2008. People act like tanking is somehow difficult.
Its only hard until you stop trying to compensate for stupid.
And i doubt you tanked instances like Nizara or maidens with a Brigand
Maidens yes. Nizara, no one in my raid guild even wanted to go near it and you didnt pug Nizara. Ever.
One of my favorite instances still though. Chrono down to 70 and plow through it for giggles.
Speaking of Fallen Dynasty, Chel'Drak is a b to solo. Both my mystic and inq did it but the archetype specific adds kinda suck, even when its grey. Was after the raid trophy for my alts' guild hall.
Oh yes Nizara was a nightmare We finaly had that thing on Farm by far the hardest single group instance ive ever come across. Kudos for getting the hang of avoidance tanking though, they were superior for a quite a while in the early periods of EQ2. I played a broken SK and some of the encounters that required DPS stoppage sucked when all your taunts were DOT's lol.
But i truly miss the larger more complex groups with tru CC (enchanters) and true Support like bards and shammies.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭what needs to be done is to make the supportive abilities for stamina regain worth beeing used. make e.g. radiant aura refill a flat 80point stamina every second instead of 80% regenvalue increasement wich is neglected thx to soft caps to a handfull of points. and this is the casefor every ability ment to support stamina regain but evil hunter wich has it own short cummings.
no one would ever use equilibrium if it would only increase the magicka regrate by 80% for a minute after its usage ^^spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭Leave the mages alone. Theres been too much nerfing already with the other patches atm. For one, I like my cheap and quick gold farming on the mage that kills everything since they made it so OP you can farm naked and beat a tank. Seriously I am stacking on a lot of cash with it, don't ruin the fun because you sound like "That Guy". The guy that ruins everything good and brings things down for absolutely no reason.
"That Guy" is responsible for saying things that get stuff nerfed like:
"Dragon knight fun? Then lets NERF him again so Sorc or Nightblade can be better than they are..."
"Sorc is too powerful with crystal shards. Lets nerf it 50% to sound reasonable, but in all actuality it will mean they will start to suck more."
"Nightblade is incredibly too OP with that "Ambush" move. They hit too hard so lets nerf them too. "
"Now that I have all of my materials, I want to sell back to the newbs. So lets get Craglorn Anomolies nerfed so I can sell my stuff back for a lot of money and ruin the other player's chances at rebuilding their characters because of all the new drastic changes coming..." (SERIOUSLY THOUGH, they need to give everyone ALL of their skillpoints back when large changes like this are implemented... 20k is extremely expensive in normal grind mode.)
"Those guys at the other grinding spot ______ are getting too much money... Lets get that nerfed too so we are the ones better than they are..."
Also I want stamina dps to become as powerful as magic dps. There should be able to be a strong competition between the two, not magic overpowering everything.Edited by Paladin_echo1 on June 24, 2014 3:16PM0 -
Anex✭✭✭Well it is a step in the right direction, but I feel it is rather small.
I'm a stamina based nightblade with dual wield melee. I have 3 magicka abilities on my bar: Teleport strike (I use it to stun when out of stamina), killer's blade (meh, I should change it but sometimes I'm desperate for an attack), and the ultimate from the assassination tree. I mainly fight with blood craze (I swap this with silver bolts when fighting non-bleeders or daedra), flurry, and whirlwind. I have the med armor passives, assassination passives, dual wield passives and luckily I am also a wood elf, so those as well.
The Molag Bal fight took FOREVER. I was running around desperately trying to dodge (without dodging because that costs stamina I didn't have to attack) to regen stamina to fight back. Even worse, because I am moving I can NOT use the quickslot wheel to select a stamina pot (health is so much more important), so all I can do is wait and run around.
I have lost track of the number of times I died because I could not dodge/roll out of an attack because I was out of stamina. I'd attempt a dodge/roll to find out that it wasn't happening -_-
Anyway, steps in right direction, just baby ones.0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Well they put those changes into 1.2.3 without doing a thing for heavy armor, according to the patch notes at least. Real smooth. Hopefully they were just accidently put in..Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on June 24, 2014 3:47PM1
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Thejollygreenone✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »Well they put those changes into 1.2.3 without doing a thing for heavy armor, according to the patch notes at least. Real smooth. Hopefully they were just accidently put in..
You expected them to make any significant changes to heavy armor when they haven't even released a post detailing what they thought was wrong?
That seems to be the general precedent that ZOS has set up. I wouldn't expect any changes, at least any good ones, to heavy armor until something like this has happened.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong though. I'm no ZOS employee.0 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭No, but if you some of the first few mod responses in this thread, they said these changes were going to take a while to be implemented. This is not a while, rushing these in without balancing things with the other broken armor type first is merely going to cause a shift.
They should have waited until they had something to impliment for heavy armor as well to prevent the shift in balance. Nothing is balanced now, medium is now an obvious choice for many reason listed in this thread about mitigation and blocking, as well as other threads about health recovery.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on June 24, 2014 3:55PM1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »No, but if you some of the first few mod responses in this thread, they said these changes were going to take a while to be implemented. This is not a while, rushing these in without balancing things with the other broken armor type first is merely going to cause a shift.
They should have waited until they had something to impliment for heavy armor as well to prevent the shift in balance. Nothing is balanced now, medium is now an obvious choice for many reason listed in this thread about mitigation and blocking, as well as other threads about health recovery.
Well, actually light armor is still the choice for obvious reasons.
These stamina fixes weren't all thrown out at once as you seem to think, these fixes are just the beginning, and I'm sure we'll continue to see more. Just like fixes for heavy armor haven't started yet. Be patient and trust the developers of the game is what I say, and balance will come eventually.
Not everything has to happen right now. The game can take its time in its attempt to perfect itself. Maybe that's just my opinion though.2