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Animation canceling, exploit or playing as intended?
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Cepeza✭✭✭Adramelach wrote: »Wonder how long it will take take to go public for imperial mounts not slowing down when horse's stamina has been used up.
Actually, the official word on that is it's a designed perk for the horse in particular, and other mounts may/will not have that ability. The effects of going to zero stamina on a running horse is NOT that it stops running, but that you DO lose any ability to remain mounted if you get hit, etc - sort of like running out of your own stamina when trying to block.
Thanks for letting me know!1 -
Oogly✭✭✭So that nasty little exploit has got ZOS attention finaly. Has been there since beta. Took some time, but I am glad they are looking into it now.
Wonder how long it will take take to go public for imperial mounts not slowing down when horse's stamina has been used up.
You really think ZOS didnt know about it? Lol
No horse slows down after it's stamina's gone.GunemCleric wrote: »i am saying to make this "exploit" a real exploit you would need to use macros. And, even then I do not believe it would work (or we would have examples)
If you can do everything by clicking alone, even with practice, then i call [snip]. Anyone who claims that clipping is their *secret* is full of the same. They may be good, but clipping the animation is not making them good.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]
It's not a secret and it doesnt suddenly make ppl "good". You'll just do more damage/healing in a period of time. Easier to notice in scripted pve but also applies to pvp.1 -
Worstluck✭✭✭✭✭maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, is done by many using macros. If were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
What proof do you have? I can teach how you use animation clipping with a Nightblade. Take a resto staff, press your left mouse button to initiate a light attack, then immediately cast Swallow Soul/Funnel health. There you go, you just exploited and you are now a cheater :P
EDIT: It seems like a lot of people are confused on how to accomplish this. You can do this with destro staff, half-charged heavy attacks, with a bow, etc. I do this with dual wield too, just hit light attack before you press your Veiled Strike. It isn't hard to do, nor does it require macros.Edited by Worstluck on June 18, 2014 7:35PMWorstluck - Breton Nightblade "Some of us refused to bow. We knew the old ways would lead us back to having a kingdom of our own."
―Madanach
Elfluck - Dunmer Dragonknight "When I will walk the earth again, the Faithful among you shall receive your reward: to be set above all other mortals forever. As for the rest: the weak shall be winnowed: the timid shall be cast down: the mighty shall tremble at my feet and pray for pardon."
―Mehrunes Dagon
Deadluck -Imperial Templar "Men are but flesh and blood. They know their doom, but not the hour"
―Uriel Septim
Daggerfall Covenant0 -
Mortosk✭✭✭✭Adramelach wrote: »Wonder how long it will take take to go public for imperial mounts not slowing down when horse's stamina has been used up.
Actually, the official word on that is it's a designed perk for the horse in particular, and other mounts may/will not have that ability. The effects of going to zero stamina on a running horse is NOT that it stops running, but that you DO lose any ability to remain mounted if you get hit, etc - sort of like running out of your own stamina when trying to block.
Yep. They called it unlimited sprint or something more catchy, I forget.
But, this is going to make the new mounts suck now, cause everyone is already used to this perk. Unless of course the new perk is flight. That's the only thing that could really trump unlimited sprint. Hmm. Maybe base 100 carry would too. The new perk will have to be petty epic to compete."Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »Tried playing around with this to see how it works, and even though i am not sure if I am doing it right, I have to say...it appears that the damage output compared to normal is massive. It does burn through magicka (or stamina if using a stamina ability) like crazy though.
Either way, it is an exploit.
You are doing it wrong and it is not an exploit. Double fail.
Pretty sure I am doing it right. Still an exploit. Still going to continue using it and getting better until fixed. I just understand and accept it. Not sure how what I said was a "double fail". You on the other hand, need to look up the word exploit and realize that you failed to understand the word. Just because you are using an exploit does not make you a cheater or a bad person.1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Morticielle wrote: »Fact is, as long as Zenimax does not officially tells us that it is an exploit, it's NOT an exploit, even some people have a different opinion. And btw: I use it and roflmao everytime I kill a noob who doesn't use it, because he thinks it's an exploit. Muhaha!
Just because it is acceptable, doesnt mean it still isn't an exploit.
"You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means. "2 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭You press your left mouse button before casting a spell....EXPLOIT!!!!!!
I am going to ditch my Razer Naga, my second monitor, and my mechanical keyboard... I am definitely cheating by using those.
Here have a
Cheating and exploiting are different. Cheating is intentionally trying to break the rules, exploiting is taking advantage of the situation. Nothing wrong with exploiting until it is corrected. Just like wall jumping in other games, or assigning skill points in this game to a complimentary combo. You are still exploiting the system, eventually either every one else will catch on or the issue will be fixed. Until then, game on, just stop trying to combine the meaning of cheating and exploiting.2 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
Don't lump macros and cheats in together. Seperate things, and if you don't like or know how to use macros, then learn. Don't be insulting by calling people cheaters just because you either do not have the equipment or knowledge.
I played my first MMO for two years before even finding out that macros existed. In that game I mainly used the in game macro system to save space on my action bar, holding down alt changed the abilities to one thing, ctrl changed them to something else, etc.
Now this game does not have an in game macro system, so you would have to rely on hardware, but if people were not allowed to use that hardware, this game would be console only. Just because you don't like macros or you feel like they are cheating does not mean that they are or justify calling someone that uses macros a cheater.0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, is done by many using macros. If were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
What proof do you have? I can teach how you use animation clipping with a Nightblade. Take a resto staff, press your left mouse button to initiate a light attack, then immediately cast Swallow Soul/Funnel health. There you go, you just exploited and you are now a cheater :P
EDIT: It seems like a lot of people are confused on how to accomplish this. You can do this with destro staff, half-charged heavy attacks, with a bow, etc. I do this with dual wield too, just hit light attack before you press your Veiled Strike. It isn't hard to do, nor does it require macros.
For the love of the Nine. Will you stop with the exploit = cheat thing. They are two different words with different meanings.1 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭Well, I'll just copy my messages from the other topic.
What is the line between an exploit or not? Any other exploit examples do not fit here. How long someone have to wait between light attacks and skills? 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 seconds? Who gets to say that? You? Me? Do I have to play measuring fractions of time every skill I use?
You will always coordinate yourself with cooldowns in the game and make the most of it. It is instinctive.
If they fix the mechanics so this can't be done, fine. But you can't call an exploit something you just do naturally, there is no distinct line between 'right and wrong' and there are no ways to apply.
English is not my first language so feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure exploitation is linked to intention.
And you'll just do it naturally. Otherwise, if you have to keep track of time every single attack you do this game would be extremely boring, unplayable really.
I don't question the fact that they might fix it, but it is not an exploit.Edited by OkieDokie on June 19, 2014 1:17AMPeople keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Well, I'll just copy my messages from the other topic.
What is the line between an exploit or not? Any other exploit examples do not fit here. How long someone have to wait between light attacks and skills? 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 seconds? Who gets to say that? You? Me? Do I have to play measuring fractions of time every skill I use?
You will always coordinate yourself with cooldowns in the game and make the most of it. It is instinctive.
If they fix the mechanics so this can't be done, fine. But you can't call an exploit something you just do naturally, there is no distinct line between 'right and wrong' and there are no ways to apply.
English is not my first language so feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure exploitation is linked to intention.
And you'll just do it naturally. Otherwise, if you have to keep track of time every single attack you do this game would be extremely boring, unplayable really.
I don't question the fact that they might fix it, but it is not an exploit.
Exploitation falls in the realm of allowable or legal, but still used for personal benefit. So this by all means is an exploit.
No rules are being broken, no 3rd party programs are altering scripts or code, or whatever, so it is by all means not a cheat.
There are two problems with this topic.
First, people they do not like it are using the word exploit but treating the people that use it like cheaters or hackers. Which creates the second problem.
The second problem is people using the exploit are now on the defensive because they are being made to feel like cheaters when they are not. So they are irrationally defending themselves as not exploiting, when they clearly are, when they should be defending themselves for not cheating, which they clearly are not.
By the very acknowledgement that you think they might fix it shows that you even realize that it is an exploit. Otherwise, there would be nothing to fix. By definition it will remain an exploit until Zenimax officially announces that it is intended or "a clever use of game mechanics" as stated by other developers for other games.
Unless they start banning for this practice, it will never be a cheat. So stop feeling bad. You are doing nothing wrong. I am not sure if it was you or someone else because the thread is so big, but it is not s hard exploit to learn. Just two days of trying to get it down, and I starting to do it add second nature while playing.
To everyone else, yes, exploiting, but no, not cheating. Stop treating people that do this as cheats.2 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People should just play the damn game.
Its sad that we even need to have arguments like this.
Clearly animation canceling isn't the way they intended for combat to work. People who do it are jerks, I could care less whether or not its classified as an exploit.2 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Learn to play is only an insult if it is unmerited. I have only ever used that phrase when there could be absolutely no other reason for someone dying to a trash mob. And in those cases it genuinely is given as advice not as an insult and usually is accompanied by some tips for survival in vet content. I'm beginning to realise there are lots of first time MMO players here. Or at least many who came from the latter years of WOW where everything had been dumbed down to the lowest skilled players abilities. How else can you tell someone that they are not getting the best out of their character. If I Sorc tells me they cant even kill a single trash mob then what exactly should be my response? Because it sure as hell isn't going to be that ZOS should reduce the difficulty to the point he can kill something.
There are two very different groups of people involved in these discussions. Those veteran MMO players to whom extracting the best from their character is second nature and who aren't limiting themselves by roll playing demands of cosmetic appeal And those who seem to want ZOS to provide content that they can tackled regardless of what they build. This argument will go on forever because which ever group ZOS respond to the other will be grieved. No one is right or wrong we are all just trying to support the version of the game we want to see.
I'm a veteran player but I don't use cheap exploits and then feel that gives me the right to shout my mouth off at people. People to whom it 'comes as second nature' to use cheap exploits instead of playing properly are in no position to comment.0 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »I'm a veteran player but I don't use cheap exploits and then feel that gives me the right to shout my mouth off at people. People to whom it 'comes as second nature' to use cheap exploits instead of playing properly are in no position to comment.
1. you are not a veteran player because despite all your preaching and posturing on the issue you have already said you haven't actually reached veteran content so if anyone is not in a position to comment its you.
2. I'm not shouting my mouth of I'm having a reasoned, adult discussion with mostly articulate intelligent people without resorting to insults and trolling.
3. I have the right to comment because expressing opinions on the game the soul reason for this forums existence.
But you carry on claiming the moral high ground and preaching you frankly pompous, ill-informed opinions. The discussion with you is over.
Edited by Hilgara on June 19, 2014 5:56AM2 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭
By the very acknowledgement that you think they might fix it shows that you even realize that it is an exploit. Otherwise, there would be nothing to fix. By definition it will remain an exploit until Zenimax officially announces that it is intended or "a clever use of game mechanics" as stated by other developers for other games.
Not really, I just mean that I'll be playing exactly in the same way. I'll naturally synchronize myself to cooldowns in order to pull as much damage as I can (which is exactly what I'm doing now). So, I'll be doing the same, trying to maximize my performance and it doesn't really matter to me if they change it or not. Therefore, if they 'fix' it or not, I'm fine with that.
But your argument about exploiting and cheating is valid. I personally have a hard time to separate both because, in my opinion, if you're taking advantage of something unfair you are cheating no matter if it is allowed by the rules or not. And according to this, incorrect concept perhaps, I disagree about the exploiting part. But in the end it is just semantics and you're right, ZOS has the final word and players shouldn't be antagonized for this.
Just a final comment I feel compelled to do..
I would like to see people that say it is an exploit playing because I seriously doubt that they don't block after a skill as soon as they can during a fight against a mob (and that is how you cancel a skill) or they perform a light attack and think 'wait, wait, ok now, skill'. Honestly, I don't buy it.
Cheers.
Edited by OkieDokie on June 19, 2014 6:42AMPeople keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
I would like to see people that say it is an exploit playing because I seriously doubt that they don't block after a skill as soon as they can during a fight against a mob (and that is how you cancel a skill) or they perform a light attack and think 'wait, wait, ok now, skill'. Honestly, I don't buy it.
Cheers.
very true, most of the morally superior will be doing this without even knowing it.0 -
cjmarsh725b14_ESO✭✭✭✭maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
Don't lump macros and cheats in together. Seperate things, and if you don't like or know how to use macros, then learn. Don't be insulting by calling people cheaters just because you either do not have the equipment or knowledge.
I played my first MMO for two years before even finding out that macros existed. In that game I mainly used the in game macro system to save space on my action bar, holding down alt changed the abilities to one thing, ctrl changed them to something else, etc.
Now this game does not have an in game macro system, so you would have to rely on hardware, but if people were not allowed to use that hardware, this game would be console only. Just because you don't like macros or you feel like they are cheating does not mean that they are or justify calling someone that uses macros a cheater.
Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program:You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.0 -
fyendiarb16_ESO✭✭✭
By the very acknowledgement that you think they might fix it shows that you even realize that it is an exploit. Otherwise, there would be nothing to fix. By definition it will remain an exploit until Zenimax officially announces that it is intended or "a clever use of game mechanics" as stated by other developers for other games.
Not really, I just mean that I'll be playing exactly in the same way. I'll naturally synchronize myself to cooldowns in order to pull as much damage as I can (which is exactly what I'm doing now). So, I'll be doing the same, trying to maximize my performance and it doesn't really matter to me if they change it or not. Therefore, if they 'fix' it or not, I'm fine with that.
But your argument about exploiting and cheating is valid. I personally have a hard time to separate both because, in my opinion, if you're taking advantage of something unfair you are cheating no matter if it is allowed by the rules or not. And according to this, incorrect concept perhaps, I disagree about the exploiting part. But in the end it is just semantics and you're right, ZOS has the final word and players shouldn't be antagonized for this.
Just a final comment I feel compelled to do..
I would like to see people that say it is an exploit playing because I seriously doubt that they don't block after a skill as soon as they can during a fight against a mob (and that is how you cancel a skill) or they perform a light attack and think 'wait, wait, ok now, skill'. Honestly, I don't buy it.
Cheers.
Of course we would block and yes the way it is working atm is something I consider an exploit, not because we can cancel an animation to block quickly or because I call it cheating, but because canceling has no negative effect of the attack of which the animation was canceled. This seems to be using a design flaw to gain advantage over how it was intended.
So we all use it unintentionally because of this design flaw and there is no getting around it. When you however start using it to increase your dps without the defensive reasoning then it closes in on the border between acceptable playing and cheating. In some opinions it crosses that border in others it is just using the abilities available to us.
Personally I believe that once you use it with every single attack you are not playing as intended and getting a bigger benefit than intended.
No matter how you look at it, you/we are exploiting a weakness in the combat system. The question is whether or not that weakness is intended or not.
I know the different meanings of the word "exploit" gets confusing at times because it all depends on the context in which it is used. The way I meant it in my original post is gaining an unintended advantage by making use of a flaw in the system. The meaning most used in gaming.
I don't call everyone that uses it a cheater since that would make everyone a cheater. I do however consider it a flaw in the system and the use therefor an exploit.1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
Don't lump macros and cheats in together. Seperate things, and if you don't like or know how to use macros, then learn. Don't be insulting by calling people cheaters just because you either do not have the equipment or knowledge.
I played my first MMO for two years before even finding out that macros existed. In that game I mainly used the in game macro system to save space on my action bar, holding down alt changed the abilities to one thing, ctrl changed them to something else, etc.
Now this game does not have an in game macro system, so you would have to rely on hardware, but if people were not allowed to use that hardware, this game would be console only. Just because you don't like macros or you feel like they are cheating does not mean that they are or justify calling someone that uses macros a cheater.
Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program:You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
You say "Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program" but are completely ignoring the very first line of the reference that you linked. "You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. "
That very important part of "that is not authorized by ZeniMax". You are assuming that every macro or hardware or whatever is not authorized, but they are clearly stating that there is an authorized list. If you want to find out what is authorized, put in a ticket, ask Zenimax. Don't go on a witch hunt and say anyone that has any type of gaming mouse or key board that is capable of using simple macros (oh boy is there a lot of them out there) is a cheater. The continued list of bots, speed hacks, etc, is clearly a list of programs or functions that either mess with the game coding, the game data transmission or straight up automation.
Now I am not a ZeniMax employee, so I cannot tell you what is authorized or not. But I am pretty sure that simple macros that require direct player input are not against the TOS.0 -
cjmarsh725b14_ESO✭✭✭✭cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
Don't lump macros and cheats in together. Seperate things, and if you don't like or know how to use macros, then learn. Don't be insulting by calling people cheaters just because you either do not have the equipment or knowledge.
I played my first MMO for two years before even finding out that macros existed. In that game I mainly used the in game macro system to save space on my action bar, holding down alt changed the abilities to one thing, ctrl changed them to something else, etc.
Now this game does not have an in game macro system, so you would have to rely on hardware, but if people were not allowed to use that hardware, this game would be console only. Just because you don't like macros or you feel like they are cheating does not mean that they are or justify calling someone that uses macros a cheater.
Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program:You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
You say "Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program" but are completely ignoring the very first line of the reference that you linked. "You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. "
That very important part of "that is not authorized by ZeniMax". You are assuming that every macro or hardware or whatever is not authorized, but they are clearly stating that there is an authorized list. If you want to find out what is authorized, put in a ticket, ask Zenimax. Don't go on a witch hunt and say anyone that has any type of gaming mouse or key board that is capable of using simple macros (oh boy is there a lot of them out there) is a cheater. The continued list of bots, speed hacks, etc, is clearly a list of programs or functions that either mess with the game coding, the game data transmission or straight up automation.
Now I am not a ZeniMax employee, so I cannot tell you what is authorized or not. But I am pretty sure that simple macros that require direct player input are not against the TOS.
Just because your software says Razer on it doesn't mean it's ok to use. Many keyboards and mice have macro capabilities because most games that allow macros (the key press kind, not the emote or outfitter kind) also have a global cooldown and have a macro capability in-game.
"software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax."
I'm not sure how that doesn't cover you pressing a button and getting multiple button presses with exact timing between them too.
If animation canceling is exploiting then doing it with a macro is both exploiting and cheating.0 -
Phantorang✭✭✭✭I wonder how many players uses macro keyboards or software to get as high DPS as possible...Fimbulwinter Recruiting true Vikings | Campaigns score | EU PC1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »It feels like a massive exploit to me.
The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.
Don't lump macros and cheats in together. Seperate things, and if you don't like or know how to use macros, then learn. Don't be insulting by calling people cheaters just because you either do not have the equipment or knowledge.
I played my first MMO for two years before even finding out that macros existed. In that game I mainly used the in game macro system to save space on my action bar, holding down alt changed the abilities to one thing, ctrl changed them to something else, etc.
Now this game does not have an in game macro system, so you would have to rely on hardware, but if people were not allowed to use that hardware, this game would be console only. Just because you don't like macros or you feel like they are cheating does not mean that they are or justify calling someone that uses macros a cheater.
Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program:You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.
You say "Macros are technically against the ToS because they are essentially user-input mimicked by another program" but are completely ignoring the very first line of the reference that you linked. "You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. "
That very important part of "that is not authorized by ZeniMax". You are assuming that every macro or hardware or whatever is not authorized, but they are clearly stating that there is an authorized list. If you want to find out what is authorized, put in a ticket, ask Zenimax. Don't go on a witch hunt and say anyone that has any type of gaming mouse or key board that is capable of using simple macros (oh boy is there a lot of them out there) is a cheater. The continued list of bots, speed hacks, etc, is clearly a list of programs or functions that either mess with the game coding, the game data transmission or straight up automation.
Now I am not a ZeniMax employee, so I cannot tell you what is authorized or not. But I am pretty sure that simple macros that require direct player input are not against the TOS.
Just because your software says Razer on it doesn't mean it's ok to use. Many keyboards and mice have macro capabilities because most games that allow macros (the key press kind, not the emote or outfitter kind) also have a global cooldown and have a macro capability in-game.
"software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax."
I'm not sure how that doesn't cover you pressing a button and getting multiple button presses with exact timing between them too.
If animation canceling is exploiting then doing it with a macro is both exploiting and cheating.
You just said it. "How that doesn't cover you pressing a button..." because that is human input. That statement about human input is about being able to press "play" on a script or program then be able to walk away and have the game played for you. Not getting multiple button press key binds that still require you to be there, move around, target new things, etc.
There are plenty of non exploit macros that people can use in this game. What about binding the loot button to your attacks, so you can loot that half second faster? Game breaking cheater? Not unless loot is shared, which it isnt in this game. Or an deconstruction macro, so you dont have to select, deconstruct then confirm. Saves you 1 second per deconstruction, game breaking cheater? Not really, they are only going to break down their own stuff accidentally at worst case.
My point remains the same, if you want to get clarification, talk to Zenimax. But until then, stop reading just the parts you want to read and twisting it to prove your point instead of looking at it objectively.
EDIT: and stop calling people cheaters just because you don't like something.Edited by Lyall84 on June 20, 2014 3:38AM0 -
aleister✭✭✭✭NerfEverything wrote: »Tried playing around with this to see how it works, and even though i am not sure if I am doing it right, I have to say...it appears that the damage output compared to normal is massive. It does burn through magicka (or stamina if using a stamina ability) like crazy though.
Either way, it is an exploit.
You are doing it wrong and it is not an exploit. Double fail.
Huh? I don't know about a "massive" damage increase (more like modest), but it allows you to use more special attacks in a given time frame, so it stands to reason that it would consume more magicka/stamina.1 -
aleister✭✭✭✭You press your left mouse button before casting a spell....EXPLOIT!!!!!!
I am going to ditch my Razer Naga, my second monitor, and my mechanical keyboard... I am definitely cheating by using those.
Here have a
Cheating and exploiting are different. Cheating is intentionally trying to break the rules, exploiting is taking advantage of the situation. Nothing wrong with exploiting until it is corrected. Just like wall jumping in other games, or assigning skill points in this game to a complimentary combo. You are still exploiting the system, eventually either every one else will catch on or the issue will be fixed. Until then, game on, just stop trying to combine the meaning of cheating and exploiting.
Arguing about whether this is an "exploit" or not is just silly. That is up to ZoS to decide and nerf accordingly should they so choose. In the meantime, everyone should take advantage of every means available to them to output as much damage as possible and/or survive as best as possible as long as you aren't griefing other players.1 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭You press your left mouse button before casting a spell....EXPLOIT!!!!!!
I am going to ditch my Razer Naga, my second monitor, and my mechanical keyboard... I am definitely cheating by using those.
Here have a
Cheating and exploiting are different. Cheating is intentionally trying to break the rules, exploiting is taking advantage of the situation. Nothing wrong with exploiting until it is corrected. Just like wall jumping in other games, or assigning skill points in this game to a complimentary combo. You are still exploiting the system, eventually either every one else will catch on or the issue will be fixed. Until then, game on, just stop trying to combine the meaning of cheating and exploiting.
Arguing about whether this is an "exploit" or not is just silly. That is up to ZoS to decide and nerf accordingly should they so choose. In the meantime, everyone should take advantage of every means available to them to output as much damage as possible and/or survive as best as possible as long as you aren't griefing other players.
Exactly.0 -
'Oh look guys. A cheat. When we're not on the forums telling everyone else to LTP, let's exploit the hell out of it. Because not cheating is for losers.'
But you carry on and those of us who knew about it but don't do it because, because well, it's cheating; will continue not doing it.[/quote]
You must be pretty sure of yourself to be so judgmental. Since you seem to know what the devs intended can you show me where they have named it cheating.
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[/quote]
You know nothing about me or my DPS and stooping to personal insults is petty. If you had understood my post, which is as clear as day you would have read that I was talking about the people who read about it or watched a clip. Not the 'few' that stumbled across it.
Either way it is still an exploit, one I could have used, but chose not to. Does that make me a better human being? Too right it does!
[/quote]
Wow, seriously. really need a grip on reality. I can say i'm Bill Gates, doesn't make it so. The more I have to say I'm a better person the less likely it is.
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[[/quote]
if they had intended for this to happen why the derp'n derp did they add spell/skill animations in the first place..
[/quote]
Why do games have cut scenes that are skipable?
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Lyall84✭✭✭✭Well, seeing how this thread is still open...even though this is taken from another thread, if this seems to end the argument.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/118572/zos-are-you-aware-of-the-exploits-that-blues-are-using-in-auriel-s-bow
The very fact that this thread is still open suggests that ZOS sees this as game mechanics not an exploit.0 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.
They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.
Naw. They shouldn't put it in. Thats one of those things along with challenging group-centric content in Vet zones they literally word-for-word promo'd as being in this game - course thats all changed now. But it is just like they literally said there would never be any actual cool-downs in TESO. o-0
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