Animation canceling, exploit or playing as intended?

GunemCleric · June 2014

One thing I do not see in this thread is that someone reported this on April 22

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/85594/major-combat-flaw-animation-canceling-damage-stacking-devs-please-look-here#latest

All of this back and forth and argument cheater...blah, blah, blah...monkey...blah...so on so forth has already been discussed. ZOS is "Thank you all for the details in this thread. We're looking into this."

So break it up move on to something interesting...please

Oogly · June 2014

Poh, what a thread. Laden with personal opinions and morales, which is fine just a tad silly.

Is it cheating? No, no rules/laws/regulations are being broken/violated. It's pretty damn hard to cheat in a video game without 3rd party influence.

Is it exploiting? Mayhaps, if it was intended or not. If it's an exploit it wont stay in the game. There's always stuff that slips through that wasnt intended.

Does the label matter? No, ofc not. The only thing that matters is if ZOS thinks it should stay or go.

That being said, this "issue" has been known from the very start. It's not like this was a carefully hidden, dirty secret.
This is what usually happens when you make active blocking a big part of the combat system.

Blocking is meant to save your life, therefor it takes precedence and overrides (all) actions- ZOS' decision.
Skills and abilities are fired on button press/release regardless of animation- ZOS' decision.
Not all skills/casts have equal animation duration- ZOS' decision.
No GCD/CD's in general- ZOS' decision.
You can cast spells while blocking- ZOS' decision

All pretty clear cut, known from the beginning. It's not like animation clipping is a new thing to games. ZOS knew.
All the damage info they have from encounters or pvp has animation clipping in it. If it yields higher dps, of course ppl are going to do it.

Do you feel angry about it? You can. Do you feel it's cheating? You can. Do you want to stand there and watch your char waving his hands in the air? You can.

Are ppl going to clip animations for more dps? They will.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

Wow so many people in this thread that need to L2P. Pretty funny reading all the responses. Although I had no idea so many baddies played this game. It seems like this is a lot of peoples first MMO.

Heh . i think they should fix the game before you you go all Wow eee on us. The game is clearly broken in melee / stamina health armor builds. Animation cancelation is a typical meta tactic. but i do use it

Morticielle · June 2014

Fact is, as long as Zenimax does not officially tells us that it is an exploit, it's NOT an exploit, even some people have a different opinion. And btw: I use it and roflmao everytime I kill a noob who doesn't use it, because he thinks it's an exploit. Muhaha!

Mortosk · June 2014

Artemis wrote: »

Fix it. There should be no such thing.

Trust me, you don't want them to fix it. If they do this game will be turned into GCD online. That's how they fix things.

davidetombab16_ESO · June 2014

animation canceling can t be fixed, is a simple bad combat design, combat is broken guys, must to be redone.

Mortosk · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Aoifesan wrote: »

The fights are absolutely tuned to it, especially in PvE in the VR levels, if you aren't doing it, you are dying to 3 packs of minions. Let alone having trouble with bosses.

And the MOBS in VR are exploiters using the same abilites players use at 2-3 times the effect, even light attacks

Except they are doing it better since they are basically macroed Its a programmed response so has no reaction time.

So they are like the agents in the matrix??? Damn, that's some scary shite right there.

Worstluck · June 2014

Mortosk wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Aoifesan wrote: »

The fights are absolutely tuned to it, especially in PvE in the VR levels, if you aren't doing it, you are dying to 3 packs of minions. Let alone having trouble with bosses.

And the MOBS in VR are exploiters using the same abilites players use at 2-3 times the effect, even light attacks

Except they are doing it better since they are basically macroed Its a programmed response so has no reaction time.

So they are like the agents in the matrix??? Damn, that's some scary shite right there.

3 VR10 Bandit Clanslayers would destroy those matrix agents

NerfEverything · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Learn to play is only an insult if it is unmerited. I have only ever used that phrase when there could be absolutely no other reason for someone dying to a trash mob. And in those cases it genuinely is given as advice not as an insult and usually is accompanied by some tips for survival in vet content. I'm beginning to realise there are lots of first time MMO players here. Or at least many who came from the latter years of WOW where everything had been dumbed down to the lowest skilled players abilities. How else can you tell someone that they are not getting the best out of their character. If I Sorc tells me they cant even kill a single trash mob then what exactly should be my response? Because it sure as hell isn't going to be that ZOS should reduce the difficulty to the point he can kill something.

There are two very different groups of people involved in these discussions. Those veteran MMO players to whom extracting the best from their character is second nature and who aren't limiting themselves by roll playing demands of cosmetic appeal And those who seem to want ZOS to provide content that they can tackled regardless of what they build. This argument will go on forever because which ever group ZOS respond to the other will be grieved. No one is right or wrong we are all just trying to support the version of the game we want to see.

But one group is right and the other group is wrong.

If there were a group of players that only put 2 skills on their skill bar, and then complained that they can't kill anything, should Zen make all the mobs easier so they can be killed with one skill? Obviously not. Learn to use more than a 2 skill rotation.

The same holds true for animation cancelling.

Thechemicals · June 2014

Goresnort wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

It feels like a massive exploit to me.

Its not. I have played aoc/dcu and other games that use this kind of combat system and they all have chaining and clipping. It had been confirmed by those game as well that this is part of the engine and working as intended. Its a very old combat system, and this arguement is very old and tiresome.

If Funcom confirmed that this was an intended combat mechanic in AoC, then why did they implement a series of fixes for it, that effectively severely reduced the benefit of animation skipping?

'This change makes sure each hit represents the invested time in animation up to each hit in the animation' -> http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=171570&highlight=animation

What really set tempers flaring in that game and sparked developer response, was that different classes, abilities and even character genders had varied benefit from animation skipping, thus causing severe combat balancing issues.

'Let me begin with saying yes, we here at Funcom agree with you; this is an unacceptable bug' ->
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=60885&highlight=animation

Since this does not directly apply to ESO, I would prefer ESO dev statements as to what is intended and what is not intended in ESO game mechanics.

The animation mechanics used in other games does not really justify or apply when debating what is, and is not, intended by ESO game mechanics.

Negative. Those notes are for damage distribution of combos which are a series of commands like left,up,down,right- that had problems since release of not being synchronized or the damage per hit not calculating proper damage.The second link was a design problem with the female character having more speed in attack than the male. Nothing to do with clipping. My herald in aoc could chain/clip 3 attacks in quick succession but combos were limited to a timed combat system. Did you play aoc unchained?

The next time you google and link "animation clipping aoc" also google Dcu where they say it is working as intended and part of the engine.

Lyall84 · June 2014

Tried playing around with this to see how it works, and even though i am not sure if I am doing it right, I have to say...it appears that the damage output compared to normal is massive. It does burn through magicka (or stamina if using a stamina ability) like crazy though.

Either way, it is an exploit.

NerfEverything · June 2014

Lyall84 wrote: »

Tried playing around with this to see how it works, and even though i am not sure if I am doing it right, I have to say...it appears that the damage output compared to normal is massive. It does burn through magicka (or stamina if using a stamina ability) like crazy though.

Either way, it is an exploit.

You are doing it wrong and it is not an exploit. Double fail.

PF1901 · June 2014

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

As intended.

Animation cancelling exists in many skill-based games and it's a mark of mastery. It takes time and effort to learn it and it gives due rewards. It's no different than correctly timing your blocks, dodges and interrupts.

I bet you copied this comment from an age of Conan forum archive.

Edit: ah well, just saw the conan reference has been made already...

kitsinni · June 2014

People are such drama queens .. you either play the way I think you should or YOUR A CHEATER HAXXOR EXPOITER!!1!@!

GunemCleric · June 2014

really you are going to keep this argument going? Those of you saying this is an "exploit" i ask you, what would like to happen when you are doing one of the longer animations like crystal shards (which takes FOREVER) and someone/something attacks you? Shall I wait until your done or lmaf as I cut you into the dumb little pieces you would be for not being able to block.

I mean wow, if you could not even do a single low-powered strike I could essentially stun-lock until dead, or if you could not interrupt and block i could do any number of things essentially dodging and striking while you...die. Or the equivalent of a rabbit punch and popping a potion while i finish you off.

sp(ell)...block...saved
OR
speeeeeeeeeee...< slice...slice...dead>...um block?

there is no exploit, there may be people exploiting it, but unless they are using macros I cannot see how they get some super edge, even then. Not only that, anyone can do it. Did no one read the 200+ post thread about this where this was ALREADY DISCUSSED. They may change things, but the animations already take too long even with the clipping.

Furthermore clipping is not reliable unless there are only three people in the zone and you not in a group and you have a great vid card and you have nothing running on you pc and you have thread priority set max and you are not in battle and there are no damn sorcs spamming spells and ....if anything they should make it more reliable.

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

really you are going to keep this argument going? Those of you saying this is an "exploit" i ask you, what would like to happen when you are doing one of the longer animations like crystal shards (which takes FOREVER) and someone/something attacks you? Shall I wait until your done or lmaf as I cut you into the dumb little pieces you would be for not being able to block.

I mean wow, if you could not even do a single low-powered strike I could essentially stun-lock until dead, or if you could not interrupt and block i could do any number of things essentially dodging and striking while you...die. Or the equivalent of a rabbit punch and popping a potion while i finish you off.

sp(ell)...block...saved
OR
speeeeeeeeeee...< slice...slice...dead>...um block?

there is no exploit, there may be people exploiting it, but unless they are using macros I cannot see how they get some super edge, even then. Not only that, anyone can do it. Did no one read the 200+ post thread about this where this was ALREADY DISCUSSED. They may change things, but the animations already take too long even with the clipping.

Furthermore clipping is not reliable unless there are only three people in the zone and you not in a group and you have a great vid card and you have nothing running on you pc and you have thread priority set max and you are not in battle and there are no damn sorcs spamming spells and ....if anything they should make it more reliable.

The main question though is whether or not a cancelled cast should be able to do full damage as it does with animation cancelling. I am all for animation cancelling to block an attack quickly, but let the attack of which the animation is cancelled do either no damage, or part of the damage. I can see that if an animation takes 2 seconds and it cancelled after 1 second that it would do half damage.

Being able to both block an attack and still get full benefit of your own canceled attack at the very least feels wrong. Whether or not it is an exploit is up to debate. I consider it so, others don't.

In the end there is only one opinion that counts and I hope we get to hear it: The opinion of the developers.

Mortosk · June 2014

Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start.

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

Mortosk wrote: »

Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start.

GunemCleric · June 2014

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

...

In the end there is only one opinion that counts and I hope we get to hear it: The opinion of the developers.

been waiting or that for almost 2 months.

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

...

In the end there is only one opinion that counts and I hope we get to hear it: The opinion of the developers.

been waiting or that for almost 2 months.

Let's hope the wait is almost over now.

GunemCleric · June 2014

Part of what i was trying say is that for a known "exploit" it has been a non-issue. No one has been "exploiting" it and this is just one long "me too" post about something that cannot be used reliably; it is like the gunslinger shooting the hangman's rope from the hip, i mean ok maybe...but not very likely.

I challenge you all to go into pvp jump into a fight with your "increased damage" and see how far that gets you. Not just some mubcrab that stands there pecking at you and you use a perfectly coordinated sequence. this is not streetfighter, not bison, this does not actually work in a real fight

Most seem to jump on this wagon when they constantly get killed, but i know they would get killed even with clipping, but far more without it.

You may agree with the shield part, but if i make you interrupt every single spell/strike by timing alone then I would be really good, as opposed to better than average, because I am good at predicting attacks (30 years of gaming and latter study of game and game theory), but If despite my best effort you are still damaging me, even if a little, whether by accidental or purposeful clipping, then I do not have an advantage. You cannot make the clipping accidental, you must have some form of interrupted and prioritized strike/sequence in order to prevent timing exploits. Clipping the animations is the same doing a split-second save (catching a suddenly thrown ball, or ducking, rather than blocking it with your face, if you have the reflexes)

Mobs are not subject to same stun-lock scenarios as players, clipping in vet zones does more damage, but that is all. Clipping (or attempting to) in Cyrodiil is a waste of time.

If you say it aint so, then prove it with video. Show yourself kicking ass using clipping, anyone here, please. then there might be something done.

Goresnort · June 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

Negative. Those notes are for damage distribution of combos which are a series of commands like left,up,down,right- that had problems since release of not being synchronized or the damage per hit not calculating proper damage.The second link was a design problem with the female character having more speed in attack than the male. Nothing to do with clipping. My herald in aoc could chain/clip 3 attacks in quick succession but combos were limited to a timed combat system. Did you play aoc unchained?

The next time you google and link "animation clipping aoc" also google Dcu where they say it is working as intended and part of the engine.

Following that argumentation, then why did the pro-skip section of the AoC player base ask for full functionality to be restored to animation skipping, post the implementation of the skip fixes?
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=180783&highlight=animation+cancelling

It is the developers of ESO that should decide what is intended with ESO combat mechanics, and not the developers of AoC or Dcu.

Oogly · June 2014

GunemCleric wrote: »

~snip

Apart from what your saying, it has very little to do with reflexes. It's just routine.

Instead of pressing 1 button to launch your skill you press it and then tap you block button. Doesnt matter if it in pve or pvp, you get used to just doing it all the time.

I really cba to press a skill that immobilizes the enemy for 1.5 seconds only to wait for the 2 seconds of animation to be done.

It's not reflexes or skill just plain routine. I play like this like it was the normal way of doing it in the 1st place. You get used to it. I dont even have to think about it anymore, if I want to cast something I tap 2 buttons instead of 1.

There's no downside to it for me. It makes combat more dynamic, it's way faster and I do more healing/damage.

GunemCleric · June 2014

i agree it is not reflexes when you get used to it in terms of sequence, but in pvp battles it takes a lot more concentration and care to get it to work due to all of the action. But if you are actually getting it to work on every possible skill/spell then I would like to know how. I have experimented and there is more than simply pushing buttons, there is a timing aspect, though it is not apparent with many spells.

Powers I experimented with had a minimum activation and the minimum was not the same. Want to prove it, pick a power, clip fast as you can see how many *extra* you can get in a time span. Do it without clipping for the same span.

Another test of timing, kill something using clipping, use your best possible sequence (all alone), while timing yourself, use CLS to track everything ( i suggest v10 giants), then tell me you have anything looking like an advantage.

v10 giants seem to be a good measure of a 1v1, imho, as they are fast, have a near one-shot, hit hard, but have lulls, and the 15k is a number that comes close to what I have had to put down to kill 2 players in a single fight where one was a healer. both cases take serious mag/stam management

If you are using macros to achieve that timing, then that is between you an ZOS. I still do not think you can do it reliably even with macros.

Oogly · June 2014

You dont need macro's. Why do ppl keep bringing up macro's?

What is it exactly that you want me to prove? It looks to me like you're not convinced clipping actually does anything. Is that the case?

GunemCleric · June 2014

i am saying to make this "exploit" a real exploit you would need to use macros. And, even then I do not believe it would work (or we would have examples)

If you can do everything by clicking alone, even with practice, then i call [snip]. Anyone who claims that clipping is their *secret* is full of the same. They may be good, but clipping the animation is not making them good.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Cepeza · June 2014

So that nasty little exploit has got ZOS attention finaly. Has been there since beta. Took some time, but I am glad they are looking into it now.

Wonder how long it will take take to go public for imperial mounts not slowing down when horse's stamina has been used up.

Worstluck · June 2014

You press your left mouse button before casting a spell....EXPLOIT!!!!!!

I am going to ditch my Razer Naga, my second monitor, and my mechanical keyboard... I am definitely cheating by using those.

Here have a

Adramelach · June 2014

Cepeza wrote: »

Wonder how long it will take take to go public for imperial mounts not slowing down when horse's stamina has been used up.

Actually, the official word on that is it's a designed perk for the horse in particular, and other mounts may/will not have that ability. The effects of going to zero stamina on a running horse is NOT that it stops running, but that you DO lose any ability to remain mounted if you get hit, etc - sort of like running out of your own stamina when trying to block.

maxilaub17_ESO · June 2014

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

It feels like a massive exploit to me.

The only problem I have with it is, many do it using macros. If it were only done via real button presses, I'd welcome it as being a skill to master. I just hate when a jackass claims (and thinks) they are skilled when they use cheats and macro's.