Animation canceling, exploit or playing as intended?

Thechemicals

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

wibble...

It's exploitation! It's simple. Why? you ask, because it's not realistic. If you go to hit someone with a sword, but then don't bother and instead bash them with a shield in reality you don't kill them with the sword.

It doesn't matter how you wrap it up or how long it has been around. It's a computer error, and if you use it you are exploiting an error.

Football games used to have a similar problem where you could just run forward with the ball with a top class player and take on half a team and score. My friends and I used to mock it and call it a 118. (as in straight through 118, a telephone advert) The point is it is not how the beautiful game is played in real life, such a feat would be epic and near impossible. Games just have a hard time being realistic with some things.

Its exploitation because its unrealistic is your argument.

Hilgara

Thechemicals wrote: »

Its exploitation because its unrealistic is your argument.

Yeah but turning invisible and stabbing a wooly mammoth in the back with a staff then breathing fire on it isn't.

Tannakaobi

Thechemicals wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

wibble...

It's exploitation! It's simple. Why? you ask, because it's not realistic. If you go to hit someone with a sword, but then don't bother and instead bash them with a shield in reality you don't kill them with the sword.

It doesn't matter how you wrap it up or how long it has been around. It's a computer error, and if you use it you are exploiting an error.

Football games used to have a similar problem where you could just run forward with the ball with a top class player and take on half a team and score. My friends and I used to mock it and call it a 118. (as in straight through 118, a telephone advert) The point is it is not how the beautiful game is played in real life, such a feat would be epic and near impossible. Games just have a hard time being realistic with some things.

Its exploitation because its unrealistic is your argument.

If you want to simplify it to that then yeah! But it is somewhat different than the intended unrealistic use of magic, or talking cats.... but whatever!

rammstein2001pub18_ESO

everyone who says this isn't an exploit holy derp'n derp derp derp .. @brianwheeler i really doubt this is what you had in mind when you designed the pvp system . i know that players will exploit anything if given the chance these new age gamers have no f'n morals at all and will ruin the game if given the chance and then say but but it was part of the game derp derp derp .. i think this is one of the final straws for alot of gamers.. and for the record an exploit is something that gives you and unfair advantage over others such as finding an exploit and abusing it so you always win .. if its not one thing its another this game launch has to be one of the worst in history not even everquest/wow/aion had this bad of broken game mechanic's

Adramelach

Guys, you have to differentiate between "unintended" and "cheating" or "exploiting". Some of this thread is completely ridiculous.

Cheating? So if I accidentally dare to cast a spell a fraction of a second before my light attack has fully completed its animation, I'm cheating? Therefore, I suppose, the only way I can be sure I'm not 'cheating', is to very carefully pause and wait for each and every spell and attack to fully complete, before I go on to my next attack? All this in the middle of a battle?

And further, as another poster has said, what if this IS intentional, and is supposed to help players that have the Situational Awareness and reaction times to respond quickly to new input? As another has said, you could be in the middle of a light attack and notice an incoming, blockable attack on you. So, you're saying that it's "cheating" to actually hit the block button, and it's "not cheating" to sit and watch as your light attack completes and you get nailed with a hard incoming attack that you could have avoided, had you "cheated" and hit the block key.

That, to me, is utterly ludicrous.

rammstein2001pub18_ESO

Adramelach wrote: »

Guys, you have to differentiate between "unintended" and "cheating" or "exploiting". Some of this thread is completely ridiculous.

Cheating? So if I accidentally dare to cast a spell a fraction of a second before my light attack has fully completed its animation, I'm cheating? Therefore, I suppose, the only way I can be sure I'm not 'cheating', is to very carefully pause and wait for each and every spell and attack to fully complete, before I go on to my next attack? All this in the middle of a battle?

And further, as another poster has said, what if this IS intentional, and is supposed to help players that have the Situational Awareness and reaction times to respond quickly to new input? As another has said, you could be in the middle of a light attack and notice an incoming, blockable attack on you. So, you're saying that it's "cheating" to actually hit the block button, and it's "not cheating" to sit and watch as your light attack completes and you get nailed with a hard incoming attack that you could have avoided, had you "cheated" and hit the block key.

That, to me, is utterly ludicrous.

if they had intended for this to happen why the derp'n derp did they add spell/skill animations in the first place..

Hilgara

Adramelach wrote: »

Guys, you have to differentiate between "unintended" and "cheating" or "exploiting". Some of this thread is completely ridiculous.

Cheating? So if I accidentally dare to cast a spell a fraction of a second before my light attack has fully completed its animation, I'm cheating? Therefore, I suppose, the only way I can be sure I'm not 'cheating', is to very carefully pause and wait for each and every spell and attack to fully complete, before I go on to my next attack? All this in the middle of a battle?

And further, as another poster has said, what if this IS intentional, and is supposed to help players that have the Situational Awareness and reaction times to respond quickly to new input? As another has said, you could be in the middle of a light attack and notice an incoming, blockable attack on you. So, you're saying that it's "cheating" to actually hit the block button, and it's "not cheating" to sit and watch as your light attack completes and you get nailed with a hard incoming attack that you could have avoided, had you "cheated" and hit the block key.

That, to me, is utterly ludicrous.

A lot of the people arguing that it is cheating actually have no idea what it is. It's not avoidable in many cases. I'm in the middle of a cast and I see a telegraphed attack coming. If I cancel the cast and block is that cheating? If not how many times am I allowed to do that in one fight before it becomes cheating?
There is no cooldown so I have to guess the duration "legal" duration of the next attack after a light attack. Seriously. Get real people.

Hiply

cubansyrusb16_ESO wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Worstluck wrote: »

From my understanding, it is not an exploit, but it is not intended to work that way.

Is that not the very definition of an exploit?

In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

You guys can keep saying it's not an exploit, but it is. What it isn't, is cheating. Everyone should be doing this until they fix it, because if you don't you'll be at the mercy of those who do. Just don't kid yourself, it's totally an exploit.

Never link Wikipedia to prove anything, it's like linking Urban Dictionary for the real meanings of words.

Here is how you do it.

Exploit : Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
To make use of ( a situation ) capitalize on and/or benefit from (a situation) which is unintended.

So instead of using Wikipedia as a source attribution you advocate using no source attribution whatsoever?

No, that is not how you do it.

Hiply

Hilgara wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

It probably explains getting one-shot by a Sorc in Cyrodiil.

How can you get one shotted with animation cancelling? by definition is requires at least two shots. It's only really any use on long fights and most PvP fights don't last long enough for it to make a difference.

Completely untrue, in any way that matters.

Burst is king, period. Animation cancelling, done proficiently, lands 2 or three shots in the time one would normally take. So, to the player being melted it is indeed one shot for all intents and purposes.

Only of use in long fights? Hilgara, that is when it is least useful due to magicka/stam burn on abilities.

Sorry, you don't get it.

Wifeaggro13

It is but considering the absoloutley horrid balance. Broken armors and melee skills. I dont think there is any reason to feel guilty about it. the end game is a mess.

Hiply

Mortosk wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Nah. People think animation is a cool down. It's not. It's animation. If they wanted cool down, they should put it in.

They might yet do that, but until they do, it's not an exploit. It's adept usage of the play mechanics.

The day they force you to watch every animation before you use another skill is the day this game dies.

It's already kinda messed up especially with Templar skills like Biting Jabs and Crescent Sweep, and sometimes even Puncture (1H/Shield skill) seems to make me wait before casting it.

Sometimes you can cast a skill right away, and other times a GCD like delay is imposed. You have to figure out the correct rhythm in order to get past it. It's very clunky.

What is skill then?

Knowing your own characters rhythm and mastering it to be amazing, or facerolling three keys to "win" because of an exploit?

LMB, 1, RMB over and over isnt exactly skill

You seem angry about something. Not sure what you are on about.

You seem not to know the definition of "angry", and I truly have no idea what you are on about.

Hilgara

Hiply wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

It probably explains getting one-shot by a Sorc in Cyrodiil.

How can you get one shotted with animation cancelling? by definition is requires at least two shots. It's only really any use on long fights and most PvP fights don't last long enough for it to make a difference.

Completely untrue, in any way that matters.

Burst is king, period. Animation cancelling, done proficiently, lands 2 or three shots in the time one would normally take. So, to the player being melted it is indeed one shot.

Only of use in long fights? Hilgara, that is when it is least useful due to magicka/stam burn on abilities.

Sorry, you don't get it.

Right....so explain how someone would one get one shotted with those "2 or 3 shots" you mentioned.

Adramelach

rammstein2001pub18_ESO wrote: »

Adramelach wrote: »

Guys, you have to differentiate between "unintended" and "cheating" or "exploiting". Some of this thread is completely ridiculous.

Cheating? So if I accidentally dare to cast a spell a fraction of a second before my light attack has fully completed its animation, I'm cheating? Therefore, I suppose, the only way I can be sure I'm not 'cheating', is to very carefully pause and wait for each and every spell and attack to fully complete, before I go on to my next attack? All this in the middle of a battle?

And further, as another poster has said, what if this IS intentional, and is supposed to help players that have the Situational Awareness and reaction times to respond quickly to new input? As another has said, you could be in the middle of a light attack and notice an incoming, blockable attack on you. So, you're saying that it's "cheating" to actually hit the block button, and it's "not cheating" to sit and watch as your light attack completes and you get nailed with a hard incoming attack that you could have avoided, had you "cheated" and hit the block key.

That, to me, is utterly ludicrous.

if they had intended for this to happen why the derp'n derp did they add spell/skill animations in the first place..

Because in many cases you will proceed through your attack as planned, and you may as well enjoy the animation of it.

This type of thing DOES happen in RL all the time, for those that think it unrealistic. Ask anyone with any training in Martial Arts. It is routine that you will be setting up for, or even beginning an attack against your opponent, only to have to adjust and pivot, move, or block an incoming attack before you have completed the move you had started. Moreover, is NOT always the case that the original move you had planned fails to do anything, being "replaced" by the second. Often, you will begin attack A, see an incoming attack, react and adjust, and proceed now with attack B instead, adjusting to the situation in mid-swing or kick. Also, combining attacks is possible in RL, as with combination punches and other moves that "stack" attacks quickly on top of each other, or even simultaneously. So I also don't agree with "well, maybe you should be able to cancel the first attack but then it should do no damage at all, and be replaced by the second." Not so, in all cases, in RL.

The point is, making a strict argument that the only "realistic" scenario is well-paced, serial attacks, in a row, not interrupting or otherwise stacking on each other, all being executed in a nice orderly, linear fashion, is simply not the reality that I know. I think based on the system as it stands, it's unavoidable and arguably just as realistic if not more so than artificially "locking" me into an attack I can only watch unfold as the situation changes around me, unable to do anything about it.

And finally, show me a video of 'real' magic being cast and how it works in conjunction with other attacks? Anyone arguing how magic attacks and blocks "really" work has to get outside and get a breath of fresh air. What is the "real life" basis for claiming that if I begin an attack with a sword, I cannot simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously, cast a magic spell as I do so? Perhaps the intention is there, but frankly the animators simply haven't added in all the possible "attack+ability" animations, which would be thousands of combinations to deal with, and so just do it this way as it's easier?

bloodlanceeb17_ESO

Divayith wrote: »

Whisper292 wrote: »

Sorry for being a noob, but what is animation canceling?

You cancel a light attack animation with a spell, you cancel a spell animation with a block. Doing this well allows you to cast more attacks than a player not using animation canceling in the same time frame. It is difficult to master and many use mouse and/or keyboard macros to do this consistently.

You can empty 100% off your stamina and magica pool in matter of 4-5 seconds, if you do it right. But to do it right you have very good connection to server AND you use macros.

Using macros should be a bannable offence, i have no clue if they can track that one, i assume they cant.

They should make it so, that animations cannot be cancelled with anything.

Hiply

Hilgara wrote: »

Hiply wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

It probably explains getting one-shot by a Sorc in Cyrodiil.

How can you get one shotted with animation cancelling? by definition is requires at least two shots. It's only really any use on long fights and most PvP fights don't last long enough for it to make a difference.

Completely untrue, in any way that matters.

Burst is king, period. Animation cancelling, done proficiently, lands 2 or three shots in the time one would normally take. So, to the player being melted it is indeed one shot.

Only of use in long fights? Hilgara, that is when it is least useful due to magicka/stam burn on abilities.

Sorry, you don't get it.

Right....so explain how someone would one get one shotted with those "2 or 3 shots" you mentioned.

"2 or three shots in the time one would normally take. So, to the player being melted it is indeed one shot for all intents and purposes."

If you don't get that then I am sorry...it's sad, really.

Syrrisdevlin

So a lot of people are defending this with its in the game any one can do it and it all comes down to knowing the game mechanics and using them abusing them to your own personal advantage right??? so what about the bank duping exploit it was in the game any one could do it once they knew the game mechanics of it and many many people did use it abuse it and I belive some even got banned for it but according to mister ragekniv and any one els that agrees with him then they also see the bank duping exploit as a broken game mechanic that's working as intended and was ok to do it and it wasn't actually an exploit at all it was just using and abusing a broken game mechanic for their own personal gain.....

Ragekniv wrote: »

IMHO, animation canceling is a game mechanic that plays as intended in the game. It's not malicious or an exploit to utilize a broken game mechanic.

you contradicted your self there mate its not malicious or an exploit to use a broken game mechanic that's like the exact definition of an exploit because using and abusing a broken game mechanic is called EXPLOITING IT

steveb16_ESO46

Tannakaobi wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

To me the whole thing looks like the issue of diving and gamesmanship in football. In some part of the world it is seen as admirable and in some it's seen as cheating. Which is why Suarez and Young get such stick.

It's a good comparison, Suarez is just like a exploiting DK

Although handling the ball on the line and biting people is probably considered cheating the world over.

The Hand of God says otherwise. One of the interesting things I read on this issue was a footballer saying you got to remember the harsh circumstances a lot of the great south american players come from. Where playing by the rules isn't an option. they bring the 'win at all costs' attitude into football and it's an attitude the fans share.

No excuse for Young of course and quite possibly not an excuse applicable to MMO's.

Goresnort

Thechemicals wrote: »

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

It feels like a massive exploit to me.

Its not. I have played aoc/dcu and other games that use this kind of combat system and they all have chaining and clipping. It had been confirmed by those game as well that this is part of the engine and working as intended. Its a very old combat system, and this arguement is very old and tiresome.

If Funcom confirmed that this was an intended combat mechanic in AoC, then why did they implement a series of fixes for it, that effectively severely reduced the benefit of animation skipping?

'This change makes sure each hit represents the invested time in animation up to each hit in the animation' -> http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=171570&highlight=animation

What really set tempers flaring in that game and sparked developer response, was that different classes, abilities and even character genders had varied benefit from animation skipping, thus causing severe combat balancing issues.

'Let me begin with saying “yes, we here at Funcom agree with you; this is an unacceptable bug”' ->
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=60885&highlight=animation

Since this does not directly apply to ESO, I would prefer ESO dev statements as to what is intended and what is not intended in ESO game mechanics.

The animation mechanics used in other games does not really justify or apply when debating what is, and is not, intended by ESO game mechanics.

steveb16_ESO46

Aoifesan wrote: »

It's intended, so you can interrupt that stupid hand waving and Block or Dodge roll instantly to avoid the big attack that was just telegraphed.

Next you'll tell me that using the keyboard rather than mouse clicking on things is an exploit too.

If it worked to abort what you were doing so as to take another action that would be fine. That's not what it's doing.

kitsinni

It may not be intended buy the entire game is now tuned to it so to get rid of it they would have to redo all the fights pretty much. Also the already weakest classes would be hurt the most if they got rid of it.

jovial

It's not an exploit, animation cancelling isn't unique to ESO. It's simply an issue of L2P. It is an acquired skill (also macroable, but so is basically everything) that you need to practice. That is all.

steveb16_ESO46

If it was unintended the fights are not 'tuned' to it. If players who don't deliberately cheat (and/or don't run builds that magnify the advantage of doing so) are permanently at a disadvantage in PvE and PvP then I suspect there's little hope.

o_0

Intended or not, it's cheesy to say the least, but if ZOS wont even say "we are aware and looking at how to balance this" or something even remotely pointing in the direction of a change then people will use it, macro it, make it as powerful as it can possibly be. Once the majority of the population is using these macros and an outcry from the pvpers takes place, they will make a change. Sad that it takes such drastic measures.

Hilgara

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

If it was unintended the fights are not 'tuned' to it. If players who don't deliberately cheat (and/or don't run builds that magnify the advantage of doing so) are permanently at a disadvantage in PvE and PvP then I suspect there's little hope.

again proving you have no idea what your preaching about. ANY build or armour type can do this. Its not limited in any way. Its a built in mechanic intended to prioritise certain abilities over others to allow you to react to the visual queues of the mob you are attacking. Light attacks have no duration so can be cancelled any anything. Abilities have a duration but can be cancelled by block. If anything sword and board have the advantage here because you also do damage with the block. everyone else (me included) cant.

NerfEverything

Wow so many people in this thread that need to L2P. Pretty funny reading all the responses. Although I had no idea so many baddies played this game. It seems like this is a lot of peoples first MMO.

Aoifesan

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

If it was unintended the fights are not 'tuned' to it. If players who don't deliberately cheat (and/or don't run builds that magnify the advantage of doing so) are permanently at a disadvantage in PvE and PvP then I suspect there's little hope.

The fights are absolutely tuned to it, especially in PvE in the VR levels, if you aren't doing it, you are dying to 3 packs of minions. Let alone having trouble with bosses.

And the MOBS in VR are exploiters using the same abilites players use at 2-3 times the effect, even light attacks

Hilgara

Aoifesan wrote: »

The fights are absolutely tuned to it, especially in PvE in the VR levels, if you aren't doing it, you are dying to 3 packs of minions. Let alone having trouble with bosses.

And the MOBS in VR are exploiters using the same abilites players use at 2-3 times the effect, even light attacks

Except they are doing it better since they are basically macroed Its a programmed response so has no reaction time.

steveb16_ESO46

Hilgara wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

If it was unintended the fights are not 'tuned' to it. If players who don't deliberately cheat (and/or don't run builds that magnify the advantage of doing so) are permanently at a disadvantage in PvE and PvP then I suspect there's little hope.

again proving you have no idea what your preaching about. ANY build or armour type can do this. Its not limited in any way. Its a built in mechanic intended to prioritise certain abilities over others to allow you to react to the visual queues of the mob you are attacking. Light attacks have no duration so can be cancelled any anything. Abilities have a duration but can be cancelled by block. If anything sword and board have the advantage here because you also do damage with the block. everyone else (me included) cant.

Yea, yea yea. I know 'any build can do it'. And on - as you full well know - it's not a 'built-in mechanic'. that is specious nonsense. it's an exploit like any other.

You want to exploit and then come here and lecture everyone on how they need to learn to play. Well, just go ahead. We'll keep on reading Learn To Exploit.

If it aborted so you could block then your argument would have merit. But it doesn't. It enable you to cancel the consequences but still get the benefits.

It's an exploit and one that makes a mockery of PvP and PvE grouping.

It's just cheating. It's cheating other players in PvP. It's cheating other players in PvE groups if they are expected to match the performance of cheaters. And it sure as hell is cheating the majority of players who don't come here and just play the game as it comes and then get pulverised in 2 seconds in PvP.

And if that drives despondent customers away because they think the suck instead of just being innocent then that cheats Zenimax also.

But like I said - you cheat on bro.

Adramelach

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

If it was unintended the fights are not 'tuned' to it. If players who don't deliberately cheat (and/or don't run builds that magnify the advantage of doing so) are permanently at a disadvantage in PvE and PvP then I suspect there's little hope.

again proving you have no idea what your preaching about. ANY build or armour type can do this. Its not limited in any way. Its a built in mechanic intended to prioritise certain abilities over others to allow you to react to the visual queues of the mob you are attacking. Light attacks have no duration so can be cancelled any anything. Abilities have a duration but can be cancelled by block. If anything sword and board have the advantage here because you also do damage with the block. everyone else (me included) cant.

Yea, yea yea. I know 'any build can do it'. And on - as you full well know - it's not a 'built-in mechanic'. that is specious nonsense. it's an exploit like any other.

You want to exploit and then come here and lecture everyone on how they need to learn to play. Well, just go ahead. We'll keep on reading Learn To Exploit.

If it aborted so you could block then your argument would have merit. But it doesn't. It enable you to cancel the consequences but still get the benefits.

It's an exploit and one that makes a mockery of PvP and PvE grouping.

It's just cheating. It's cheating other players in PvP. It's cheating other players in PvE groups if they are expected to match the performance of cheaters. And it sure as hell is cheating the majority of players who don't come here and just play the game as it comes and then get pulverised in 2 seconds in PvP.

And if that drives despondent customers away because they think the suck instead of just being innocent then that cheats Zenimax also.

But like I said - you cheat on bro.

Completely disagree on all counts. Not cheating in the slightest, and often unavoidable as you simply try to defeat things as fast as possible, You naturally attack and use skills as soon as you are able to, you are not paying attention to the animations anyway. I am usually focused on my resource bars, the ground around me (for red zones) and where the bad guys are. I am absolutely NOT focused on whether or not my last attack animation has actually completed prior to attempting to cast the next ability.

If the ability I want to use "lights up" on my bar, and is available for use, I'm sure as heck going to use it. I'm not going to look up, focus on my character, and ensure that my last attack has "completed" before mashing that button. Similarly, if an incoming attack is blockable, and I am able to hit that block button to do so, I am not going to first "double check" to ensure my last skill use has properly completed, prior to mashing that block button. If I can block it, I block it, regardless of whether my last attack animation has fully played out or not.

I do not consider that cheating in the slightest, and if others do, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hilgara

Learn to play is only an insult if it is unmerited. I have only ever used that phrase when there could be absolutely no other reason for someone dying to a trash mob. And in those cases it genuinely is given as advice not as an insult and usually is accompanied by some tips for survival in vet content. I'm beginning to realise there are lots of first time MMO players here. Or at least many who came from the latter years of WOW where everything had been dumbed down to the lowest skilled players abilities. How else can you tell someone that they are not getting the best out of their character. If I Sorc tells me they cant even kill a single trash mob then what exactly should be my response? Because it sure as hell isn't going to be that ZOS should reduce the difficulty to the point he can kill something.

There are two very different groups of people involved in these discussions. Those veteran MMO players to whom extracting the best from their character is second nature and who aren't limiting themselves by roll playing demands of cosmetic appeal And those who seem to want ZOS to provide content that they can tackled regardless of what they build. This argument will go on forever because which ever group ZOS respond to the other will be grieved. No one is right or wrong we are all just trying to support the version of the game we want to see.