Bots, loads of bots !

nerevarine1138

Zorak wrote: »

I won't put effort in answering you because your response isn't founded on logic, It's clearly based on your emotions.

The sad thing is that you don't want to be called fanboy. =(

If someone ever asks me what the definition of "irony" is, I'm going to point them to this post.

Mailmann

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The location of bots doesn't somehow make them easier for the developers to eliminate. Breaking a bot takes time; be patient.

Yep, and that's why I plan to patiently wait while playing something else. I am going to come back in the near future, but these immersion breaking (and sometimes game breaking) issues must be resolved before I do. And before anyone asks, no, nobody can have my stuff because I'll need it when I come back.

Loxy37

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ok, education time:

To break a bot, the developers need to observe it in action. Then they need to identify the holes in their code that let it work. Then they need to fix those holes in-house. Then they need to break the bots that exist. Then they apply hotfixes to the actual game client. Then the botters figure out a new way around the code, and the process starts over.

Bots are a reality in any major MMO. It will get better, but it's never going to go away. And the only people to blame for that are the selfish players who abuse the system.

Wrong. A GM or 2 could easily identify, try to communicate and ban them within minutes + the only people to blame for the cancer in ESO is Zenimax because they created a game the is all about how much gold you have. By making repairs, horse, motifs and tempers, cost so much, they invited RMTs to destroy their game. Dont blame people, Blame Zenimax's gawd awful game design decisions!

Alurria

Nobody likes bots right? At least we can agree on that, the only thing I as a player can do is to keep reporting them. I would like to keep my faith after reading that Zeni is working on this problem. Is that so bad? Does it make me a fan boy because I'm willing to keep the faith for longer than some other people. Bottom line is these botters and spammers hurt everyone of us in different ways.

Believe me I'm not happy about bots, but I'm not going to crucify the developers either. I want it under control soon. I hope they would come out with more information on this sooner rather then later. I don't own tinfoil its bad for the environment

nerevarine1138

Loxy37 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ok, education time:

To break a bot, the developers need to observe it in action. Then they need to identify the holes in their code that let it work. Then they need to fix those holes in-house. Then they need to break the bots that exist. Then they apply hotfixes to the actual game client. Then the botters figure out a new way around the code, and the process starts over.

Bots are a reality in any major MMO. It will get better, but it's never going to go away. And the only people to blame for that are the selfish players who abuse the system.

Wrong. A GM or 2 could easily identify, try to communicate and ban them within minutes + the only people to blame for the cancer in ESO is Zenimax because theu created a game the is all about how much gold you have. By making repairs, horse, motifs and tempers, cost so much, they invited RMTs to destroy their game. Dont blame people, Blame Zenimax's gawd awful game design decisions!

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Zorak

Xithian wrote: »

Zorak wrote: »

The sad thing is that you don't want to be called fanboy. =(

The sad thing is that you think that calling someone that somehow invalidates their statements, without providing any actual counterpoint.

Which counter point ?

"I'm a former computer programmer", "Your reasoning is not founded on logic. It is based on an emotional response of outrage at seeing bots openly and blatantly operate in your questing area." (which you should be mad about it) ?

These arguments ?

I didn't see any valid point coming from you.

Zorak

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Loxy37 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Ok, education time:

To break a bot, the developers need to observe it in action. Then they need to identify the holes in their code that let it work. Then they need to fix those holes in-house. Then they need to break the bots that exist. Then they apply hotfixes to the actual game client. Then the botters figure out a new way around the code, and the process starts over.

Bots are a reality in any major MMO. It will get better, but it's never going to go away. And the only people to blame for that are the selfish players who abuse the system.

Wrong. A GM or 2 could easily identify, try to communicate and ban them within minutes + the only people to blame for the cancer in ESO is Zenimax because theu created a game the is all about how much gold you have. By making repairs, horse, motifs and tempers, cost so much, they invited RMTs to destroy their game. Dont blame people, Blame Zenimax's gawd awful game design decisions!

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Wrong.

Bots will never be completely broken. So ?

You don't keep banning them ? That means more money they got put into buying new accounts to bot with.


"And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue."

A personality flaw with the person botting and ZoS flaw for not having active GMs constantly banning them.

nerevarine1138

Zorak wrote: »

Wrong.

Bots will never be completely broken. So ?

You don't keep banning them ? That means more money they got put into buying new accounts to bot with.


"And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue."

A personality flaw with the person botting and ZoS flaw for not having active GMs constantly banning them.

Let's try this again (a reward for you managing to go a whole post without saying "fanboy"):

The GMs do ban bots. In waves. After the current iteration of bot is broken. It doesn't work any other way, because constantly banning individual accounts is pointless. Money doesn't enter in to the equation, because we're talking about compromised accounts or accounts bought with stolen cards.

Mailmann

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit. While this is happening, Zenimax will have the time they need to arrive at a more permanent solution.

nerevarine1138

Mailmann wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit. While this is happening, Zenimax will have the time they need to arrive at a more permanent solution.

Sure. You donate $1,000,000 for that to be possible, and we'll see how it goes.

ZOS_TristanK

Hey, all. We wanted to pop in to encourage you to keep reporting bots when you see them in-game. Our GMs are working to remove these bots from ESO every day, and your reports are very helpful. In addition, as Game Director Matt Firor recently stated, we are continuing to work on other methods to keep botters and other ToS violators out of ESO. We understand that bots can be frustrating, and appreciate your help in fighting the good fight to remove them from ESO.

Zorak

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Mailmann wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit. While this is happening, Zenimax will have the time they need to arrive at a more permanent solution.

Sure. You donate $1,000,000 for that to be possible, and we'll see how it goes.

The fun thing is that you really don't need an "army of GMs" nor 1 million dolars to make it work.

But you do need GMs online day and night banning bots, keeping an eye on the zone chats and looking at reports, etc...

And for an P2P MMO...well, they should have this.

Edit: And it's interesting how you think that all botters bought their games with stolen cards, or play on compromissed accounts. lol

Many of them are common ppl who bought those bots on third party websites, like demonbuddy and other famous Blizzard games bots.

And GMs doesn't ban bots on waves. Ban waves aren't their responsibility. Their responsability lies on real time support to the game's integrity.

Xithian

Mailmann wrote: »

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit.

After paying for those resources, neither would Zenimax... and then there would be no ESO for anyone.

Loxy37 wrote: »

the only people to blame for the cancer in ESO is Zenimax because they created a game the is all about how much gold you have. By making repairs, horse, motifs and tempers, cost so much, they invited RMTs to destroy their game. Dont blame people, Blame Zenimax's gawd awful game design decisions!

I know, right... Just the other day I saw a GM pop in chat and chastise a player that was asking too little for motifs and tempers.

Also, I've never spent more on repairs than I made during the time. Horses are one time purchases, with a reasonably priced introductory horse in place already.

On that note... I don't know why people gripe about gold, or feel the need to purchase it. Every single large gold sink is a one time thing. I'm wondering how long till gold is as worthess as it was in D2. At endgame no one will need it for anything but repairs. Upgrade items make more sense to use as a currency among players.

Mailmann

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Sure. You donate $1,000,000 for that to be possible, and we'll see how it goes.

It isn't uncommon for MMOs to cost hundreds of millions in development and maintenance these days. This is one of the major issues that many people are cancelling their subscriptions over. Zenimax may have to shell out that kind of money to keep their subscription numbers from falling to too far. Besides, if 100,000 people pay for one month of subscription, that will result in $1,500,000... before taxes and whatnot of course.

nerevarine1138

Zorak wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Mailmann wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit. While this is happening, Zenimax will have the time they need to arrive at a more permanent solution.

Sure. You donate $1,000,000 for that to be possible, and we'll see how it goes.

The fun thing is that you really don't need an "army of GMs" nor 1 million dolars to make it work.

But you do need GMs online day and night banning bots, keeping an eye on the zone chats and looking at reports, etc...

And for an P2P MMO...well, they should have this.

Name one MMO with that system.

Skillet

Someone tell me again why Bots can't be banned along with their IP addresses?

Leesha

Zorak wrote: »

But still there is alot of bots farming public dungeon bosses, running underground collecting nodes...there will always be bots, but now it got even worse because there is even dozens bots farming in plain sight.

I saw those threads and I even saw a GM myself (once).

But after witnessing all this bots yesterday, the last thing I would call those GMs is active.

I have not personally witnessed bots at public dungeon bosses since diminishing returns on loot (which is why we now see them in the open). Not even a single solitary one.

I'm not seeing how you believe active GMs can solve this problem. The sheer number of GMs needed for this would be insane. So let's take your demand into perspective for a minute. We would need 24 hour patrolling GMs at just about every location with groups of enemy npcs. As soon as one bot gets banned, another shows up almost instantly to take its place. Once these bots alert the owner of something wrong, they move them to another profitable location and the cycle continues. It is absurd to think active GMs will rectify this situation.

The only real solution for stopping bots is to make gold and items account bound. This would infuriate far too many people so it is not going to happen. The bots will continue to be an infestation as long as gold is in demand.

Xithian

Skillet wrote: »

Someone tell me again why Bots can't be banned along with their IP addresses?

IP addresses are easily spoofed. That means you end up banning an IP that does not belong to the offender. Many people also have IPs that change regularly by default. IP bans are not effective for much of anything, even moreso with people that are willing to spoof them.

Mailmann

Skillet wrote: »

Someone tell me again why Bots can't be banned along with their IP addresses?

Not all IP addresses are permanent IP addresses. Many people have different IP addresses from time to time. Additionally some people share IP addresses with others that live or work in their building. I doubt anyone would be very happy if they found out that their new IP address has been banned by Zenimax because of what some disreputable party did with it prior to them having it.

Leesha

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Zorak wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Mailmann wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

A GM can easily identify and ban a bot, which results in the bot coming right back on a different account. So it's a pointless process if the bot isn't broken first.

And if you don't have the willpower to earn gold in the game without breaking the law, that's a personality flaw, not a design issue.

Well, if an army of GMs stayed in game all day and night banning bots and then there replacement bots day after day, week after week, month after month, eventually it would be not possible for these gold selling companies to make any profit. While this is happening, Zenimax will have the time they need to arrive at a more permanent solution.

Sure. You donate $1,000,000 for that to be possible, and we'll see how it goes.

The fun thing is that you really don't need an "army of GMs" nor 1 million dolars to make it work.

But you do need GMs online day and night banning bots, keeping an eye on the zone chats and looking at reports, etc...

And for an P2P MMO...well, they should have this.

Name one MMO with that system.

^ Exactly this. Even WoW doesn't have visibly active GMs for dealing with bots and gold sellers yet they have a pretty good handle on limiting the impact they have on players because they break the programs.

Bhakura

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Nobody likes bots right? At least we can agree on that, the only thing I as a player can do is to keep reporting them. I would like to keep my faith after reading that Zeni is working on this problem. Is that so bad? Does it make me a fan boy because I'm willing to keep the faith for longer than some other people. Bottom line is these botters and spammers hurt everyone of us in different ways.

Believe me I'm not happy about bots, but I'm not going to crucify the developers either. I want it under control soon. I hope they would come out with more information on this sooner rather then later. I don't own tinfoil its bad for the environment

Well said, being so disgruntled, some info about it, or even a dev comming to reply here would go a long way.
All i get are two screenshots of 2 gms, and the forum post thats been up for i dont know howlong that "theyre working on it", meanwhile in lowlevel zones ...

nerevarine1138

Bhakura wrote: »

Well said, being so disgruntled, some info about it, or even a dev comming to reply here would go a long way.
All i get are two screenshots of 2 gms, and the forum post thats been up for i dont know howlong that "theyre working on it", meanwhile in lowlevel zones ...

We do have a ZO reply in this thread, despite there being no need for it.

Xithian

Bhakura wrote: »

Well said, being so disgruntled, some info about it, or even a dev comming to reply here would go a long way.

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hey, all. We wanted to pop in to encourage you to keep reporting bots when you see them in-game. Our GMs are working to remove these bots from ESO every day, and your reports are very helpful. In addition, as Game Director Matt Firor recently stated, we are continuing to work on other methods to keep botters and other ToS violators out of ESO. We understand that bots can be frustrating, and appreciate your help in fighting the good fight to remove them from ESO.

What more were you wanting?

Mailmann

Leesha wrote: »

^ Exactly this. Even WoW doesn't have visibly active GMs for dealing with bots and gold sellers yet they have a pretty good handle on limiting the impact they have on players because they break the programs.

World of Warcraft (along with most other MMOs) doesn't have certain client side operations that should actually be processed server side. Hackers are taking advantage of this and Zenimax may have to take some extreme measures in the short term to get this problem under control.

Zershar_Vemod

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hey, all. We wanted to pop in to encourage you to keep reporting bots when you see them in-game. Our GMs are working to remove these bots from ESO every day, and your reports are very helpful. In addition, as Game Director Matt Firor recently stated, we are continuing to work on other methods to keep botters and other ToS violators out of ESO. We understand that bots can be frustrating, and appreciate your help in fighting the good fight to remove them from ESO.

I know I'm going to come off as an ***, but when there's hundreds of bots entering a single location (Hollow City, for example) each day alone, at a rate of ~4 seconds per bot, the constant stream of tickets should be a red flag that whatever is going to be implemented it needs to be big, effective, and honestly soon. It's getting beyond ridiculous and embarrassing...

Bhakura

Xithian wrote: »

What more were you wanting?

Uh didnt see that
Fine theyre working on it ... meanwhile in lowlevel zones ... :P

Humor

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Humor wrote: »

Silkesh wrote: »

Do you think it is easy to have GMs in all instances of the game areas existing simultaneously?

Gee... The people who have programmed the bots have no problem being everywhere at once... Teleporting from node to node and what not.

Surely, the GM's, and dev's have no problem doing this... Right?

Please read the earlier post explaining how bots are actually dealt with. There is no magic wand, and the only people you should be blaming here are the players who buy gold. Without them, this whole ridiculous situation wouldn't exist.

Actually, it CAN Be done in the snap of a finger, how do I know this? Well, I'd like to take a far, far, FAR look back into the past. A "sort" of Mmorpg created by a very small group called "The 4th Coming Online", I think that was the name anyways. Dev's would periodically come into the game and hit people with an item called the "Stupid Stick". This instantly teleported players to a different location (JAIL), removing all their stats to one, so if they tried to escape, or if a monster hit em once, they'd die.

Through means like this, it shows me just how much effort it actually takes in order to do this. Not very much considering the team that made the game consisted of maybe 10-15 people.

So yes, a Magic Wand can be created, and should be created. Even if you don't ban them, you could send them to a far away location, make the character have absolutely now way of getting back, by locking out their warping/recall/stuck.

As I said before, if a small team, and people who make bots can do this. The Dev's, and GM's should have absolutely no problem at all.

They CHOOSE to do nothing about this, because they want to see how much money they can drain from us, before "Enough is enough". Their responses "we're looking into this matter", isn't good enough anymore. Everytime they mention something about bots, and how they plan to "Counter" them. It's a be SCREW YOU to the actual players.

Xithian

Humor wrote: »

Actually, it CAN Be done in the snap of a finger, how do I know this? Well, I'd like to take a far, far, FAR look back into the past. A "sort" of Mmorpg created by a very small group called "The 4th Coming Online", I think that was the name anyways. Dev's would periodically come into the game and hit people with an item called the "Stupid Stick". This instantly teleported players to a different location (JAIL), removing all their stats to one, so if they tried to escape, or if a monster hit em once, they'd die

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess there are currently more bots in ESO than there were players online in that game.

LeCreaux

I went outside Davon to get some low level crafting mats and encountered a gang of bots standing around a cloth node. Nearby was one of those giant floating squids. I pulled it over to the node and let it beat on my shield for about 10 minutes. Its AOE killed the bots over and over until they couldn't res anymore. Eventually they logged off and waited for me to leave.

demendred

LeCreaux wrote: »

I went outside Davon to get some low level crafting mats and encountered a gang of bots standing around a cloth node. Nearby was one of those giant floating squids. I pulled it over to the node and let it beat on my shield for about 10 minutes. Its AOE killed the bots over and over until they couldn't res anymore. Eventually they logged off and waited for me to leave.

Haha nice, very nice! It really is fun to kill them off. Keep up the great work!