50 feed cap on horses is not declared anywhere ingame.

DewiMorgan

[Edited for clarity: this post is NOT a claim that horses be fed indefinitely. This is pointing out that the UI is unclear about the cap of 50 feeds. Specific issues with the UI are made clearer in later posts.]

50 feed cap on horses is not declared anywhere ingame. This is likely to result in serious player backlash in a few more days when people run into it. Like with the 6-person AoE cap, caps must be made clear to players. People have been feeding their Imperial horses for weeks now, thinking they'd be able to make them as good as other horses, with time put in. Thinking, as the interface implies, that the only difference between an expensive horse and a cheap one is that the cheap ones take a few weeks longer to max out: that the cost covers time, not ability.

It doesn't.

Apparently there's a 50-feed cap on all horses.

The tooltip in the game says:

Your stable allows you to access, feed and rename your mounts.

You can feed each mount once a day. Feeding a mount the right food will improve its run speed, stamina, or carry capacity. You can rename your mount by clicking the edit name button in the top right.

You can also purchase more stable slots if you wish to own and raise multiple mounts but you can only have one active at a time.

[my emphasis]

Further, in the help article "Is the Palomino Horse better than other horses?" it says "the only difference between it and horses available in-game is the appearance", and in the help article "Does the Imperial Horse have better stats than other horses in the game?" it says it "travels at the same speed as other horses" and "Its stats are identical to the stats of other horses".

No cap is mentioned, nor that there are horses that can be bought ingame which will end up with better stats.

Would you all have bought the Imperial edition, or the Palomino, if you knew it would not be as good as the expensive horses? Were you, like me, under the impression that there were three classes of horse:

- Cost real money, cheap ingame, take a while to level.
- Medium price ingame, take a while to level.
- Expensive ingame, but they start off with a head-start to levelling them.

Because that is the impression that the UI, the help, and the website, all give.

But here it is, hidden away in the help, as an answer to a question that most people wouldn't even think to ask, because the interface implies no cap:

How many times can I feed my horse?
Players can feed their horse approxomately once per day every 20 hours, increasing the level of the horse by one for each time they feed it. Feeding a horse will slightly increase its speed (overall speed increase), stamina (how long they can sprint for), and carrying capacity (inventory space increase) depending on the food. It will gain a level each time the players feed it, to a maximum of 50. This allows players to customize their horse in a manner that fits their play style.
It is also important to note that leveling up a horse's statistics only counts on the character's active mount: the statistics are not shared among all the mounts of an account.

Have you wasted time on this? Have you wasted *money* on this?
There is also a help topic on how to get a refund for your horse. I suspect many might shortly be considering that, once they know they still need to buy the 45k gold horse in the end anyway to max their char, even though they paid money so they wouldn't have to.

SirAndy

I thought that was common knowledge, i'm a bit surprised people didn't know ...
;-)

Laura

SirAndy wrote: »

I thought that was common knowledge, i'm a bit surprised people didn't know ...
;-)

i thought so too. Little surprises me anymore though.

rawne1980b16_ESO

I already knew the Palomino I bought wouldn't be as good as the most expensive horse.

Could you imagine the cries of "pay to win" if the Imperial or Palomino horse were better than the in game horses?

I didn't pay for it to have the best horse in the game .... I bought it because running is slow and horse is faster and it gave me a mount before I made the gold I have now.

Although I still haven't paid for a more expensive horse. I've grown attached to my Palomino now.

No, I don't feel like I wasted my money, All my alts get a horse which has saved me a fortune in gold.

Lalai

I also thought it was common knowledge, even without the tooltip. I will admit I had to look it up to confirm when I noticed that feeding increased the level and.. well everything with a level in game has a cap.. so I wanted to confirm what that cap would be.

The should probably add that the horse's level is capped at 50 to the tooltip, I just don't expect it to "blow up".

Selstad

I understand the predicament and agree that it should be made clearer that the cap for the horse is 50 and a 15% mount won't catch up with the 25% mount. But I don't agree that you should feel cheated in any way about this. I bought the imperial edition for the package and not for 1 item alone. Though I have to say that having a mount I can use from level 1 more or less makes up for everything. I wouldn't like it very much if I had to run around for ages to afford a mount.

Also, I haven't gotten enough gold to purchase the 25% mount anyway, it's too expensive for me so I've focused on using my money on other things rather than mounts. I can make it with the horse I have, even though it'll be 10% slower at 50, it's still good enough for me.

Govalon

I knew the horses would have level cap of 50 like everything else in the game. That is why I bought the expensive horse.

I bought imperial edition and I have the horse but it would have been super lame if that horse had been just as good as best horses in the game. It would have been disgrace to the game if it would have been possible to buy best horse with real cash. I wan't to earn the best stuff

DewiMorgan

Where was the "common knowledge" imparted? Zone chat? Beta forums? Or that well-hidden help topic?
The only people who could possibly know about it, would be metagamers - those who are involved in the game, outside of the game itself (forums, etc), since nothing in the game exists to tell you.

"I knew, so everyone should" feels a poor response. *I* knew, because I saw it mentioned in zone chat after a couple of weeks of feeding my horse oats, on the assumption that I could feed it for speed "later, when I've maxed the carrying capacity".

But when I mentioned the cap in another thread, I was surprised - and concerned - that so many people were alarmed and found it news.

So, while may be common knowledge to some, it's certainly not common knowledge to those buying the horses with real money, that they are effectively buying a pig in a poke: a suboptimal horse that will never be as good as the best.

And arguments like "I don't feel cheated, so you shouldn't feel cheated" and "I bought my horse for stuff other than the horse, so everyone else should too" also feel invalid to me.

People are buying Palominos and being told "they are as good as ingame horses".

[Edited somewhat for tone - DM]

rawne1980b16_ESO

I'll be honest, i'm surprised that people are only just finding out about this.

I really did think it was common knowledge.

Personally, i've known about the horse level cap since the beta's and I don't pay much attention to things so figured word would have spread by now.

Lalai

Something can be common knowledge without being written anywhere people normally look. Word of mouth can make many things common knowledge that people don't actually read themselves. I thought this was the case with horses for most people. The majority ask in chat and get an answer, other people read it in the same chat and find out the information and then information spreads, making it common knowledge.

The store horse with real money can still be a very real thing. Some people have trouble earning the 17.5k, especially if they don't sell items often and don't log on much. To them a mount, even if it's not the best in the game, can be well worth the $15. You shouldn't presume to speak for everyone, or even the majority.

Yes, it should be added to the tooltip, but no, it's not that big of an issue.

SirAndy

I think you're blowing your poked pig out of proportions here ...

DewiMorgan

If you sell something, saying it is as good as something else, and it is not, that is bait-and-switch. I'm finding it deeply arrogant that you beta testers consider that their "insider beta knowledge" should be considered "common knowledge".

IS IT NOT. And it is extremely disingenuous apologetics to try to use such an excuse.

My point is: this should be on the UI.
And it should be on the page where you buy the Palomino.
Otherwise, people are being lied to and cheated.
Bait-and-switch is actually illegal. The first bolded statements in my OP are the bait. The last is the switch.

nerevarine1138

Gee, there used to just be a molehill here. Who went and made this mountain?

xDonMega

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

I'll be honest, i'm surprised that people are only just finding out about this.

I really did think it was common knowledge.

Personally, i've known about the horse level cap since the beta's and I don't pay much attention to things so figured word would have spread by now.

Not everyone playing this game was in beta... so how were they supposed to know about it?

And I'll add that you people in beta did a pretty shizzy job.

doggie

woot. There is no veteran rank for horse? But horse wants to do other faction areas too.!

Lalai

Saying you're blowing it out of proportion isn't being an apologist. Nor is it making excuses. It's not bait and switch because it -is- the same speed as horses in game, it's just not the same speed as one specific horse in game (the speed one). If you buy the stamina 42k horse, or the carrying capacity 42k horse, they are the same speed as the store ones.

No one is saying they shouldn't update the tooltip, they're saying you're overly mad at something that isn't really that big of a deal.

Ariane

From the store: https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/store/product/palomino_horse
PRODUCT DETAILS
Online store exclusive!
Usable at level 10 or above
Provides standard mount speed bonuses
Requires The Elder Scrolls Online

It DOES provide standard speed. It doesn't say anywhere that it provides the fastest speed. Standard speed is 15%.

I agree we should get more information about everything, though, because people can make mistakes like yours.

DewiMorgan

I don't for a minute believe that any of you feel it's OK that people are being deceived in this way.

But despite my hyperbole, I don't feel this is a deliberate fraud of any kind.

So, can we meet in the middle, on the following points? If you disagree with any, please state which

1) The horse cap is causing confusion to many players, and this is causing them false expectations about purchased products. This one seems inarguable: there are multiple posts about this here on the forums, and any time you mention it in zone chat, people express surprise.

2) The horse cap is an OK thing to exist. Nobody (at least in this thread) is complaining about it.

3) The confusion stems from lack of information in the UI.

4) Adding this information to the UI (and ideally also to the sales page) would be a simple, effective, and useful step, that would as near-as-damnitt, completely resolve the problem for everyone.

Can we agree on those points, or is there some point on which we differ?

rawne1980b16_ESO

DewiMorgan wrote: »

IS IT NOT. And it is extremely disingenuous apologetics to try to use such an excuse.

Who's being apologetic?

I haven't seen anyone making excuses for Zenimax or trying to justify it.

Some of us knew, some didn't ... what the hell do you want us to do about it?

I'm hardly going to fly off in a rage over something so insignificant to me.

No, my cash bought horse isn't the fastest in the game. That doesn't bother me. I knew it wouldn't be when I paid for it, I just wanted a horse and didn't have vast sums of gold at the time.

Now I quite like my little horse so i'm still not going to fly off in a rage.

When I bought my Kawasaki Ninja 650 they didn't tell me I couldn't break the sound barrier ..... imagine my disappointment.

Bad analogy but my point stands. A little common sense and a little Google go a long way.

Now i'm still not apologising for Zenimax but you have to understand that some people simply don't care enough to get wound up or agitated like others may do.

DewiMorgan

Damnitt. I've done it again, and I'm sorry.

I'm being confrontational, and I don't want to be. There's a problem there that I'm trying to point out, that I think we all agree on, which has a solution that is easy, and which I think we also agree on.

I don't see a need to argue or be confrontational, but I was. In my defense, it's human nature, when you says "hey, there's this problem here" and someone responds "eh, that's not a problem", that you'll defend your position.

But I defended my position aggressively and confrontationally, and that was wrong, and turned the thread flamey, and I didn't want that. That's not productive. I wanted to actually know *how many people were affected*, and instead now all people will see is me being a melodramatic ***.

While the "it's common knowledge" came across *to me* as an arrogantly elitist beta-tester put-down, I'm sure it wasn't actually meant that way, and I should instead have... I'm not sure.

Perhaps, I should gently have tried to help people see the problem from the point of view of new users, since most people posting here are very knowledgeable, long-time posters who'd obviously consider even the most subtle nuances of the game to be common knowledge, because you've known them for *months*.

So, sorry for hyperboling it up

Lalai

All good, the forum.. or at least this particular part of the forum.. isn't really a good place to try and create a movement for things to change anyway. Best thing to do is /feedback in game, or point it out in the customer support section.

My common knowledge statement was just that, wasn't meant as elitist.. I hardly even participated in the betas because I didn't want to spoil the story for launch.. I see people ask questions about horses all the time, a lot of people don't even know you can level them because they don't bother to read. So I just kinda assumed that because questions pop up all the time, and thus answers also pop up, it was something commonly known. The questions aren't even about the horses level usually.. it's more like "what does feeding a horse do" or "when I feed my horse does the buff stay permanently"..and then whoever answers throws in the level 50 thing along with the information.

That's also probably why I see a tooltip as a minor deal, most people don't read that stuff anyway. It's not a bad suggestion, you just came off as very angry.

MasterSpatula

All this stuff you claim we didn't know, I knew. Though, to be fair, I don't remember where I learned it.

methjester

I think it sucks. It is what it is, and Zenimax has no clue how to get information out to people. It will cost them with subscriptions.

cromica81_ESO

I just figured since 50 was the max for everything else in game it was for horses also

rawne1980b16_ESO

We all get confrontational sometimes.

Some of us didn't say it was common knowledge, we merely said we thought it was.

I haven't heard much of any issue about it so my assumption (yay for assumptions) was that people had found out.

Obviously I was wrong.

The joy of the internet is we all view things differently. What is an issue for some isn't an issue for others.

We're not trying to belittle you or say your viewpoint on the horse issue isn't valid it's just that some of us don't see it as an issue to us personally.

I'm sure some people may be upset that they paid cash for a horse that isn't the best in the game but, as I said above, being able to buy the best in game items for cash is along the lines of the oh so overused buzzword "pay to win" .... and that WOULD have been an issue.

DewiMorgan

Lalai wrote: »

It's not a bad suggestion, you just came off as very angry.

Yeah I must pay more attention to tone, or come across as rebellious teen.

Don't worry that your common knowledge statement was unclear: it was even supportive. My reading was just clouded by my over-defensiveness.

I didn't really intend to start any kind of movement... my gaming is for unwinding!

I think what I wanted from the post was maybe a bit muddled, though: I should have a clear intent before posting. I wrote the OP *expecting* people to argue, so I wrote it argumentatively, and defended it the same way. Self-fulfilling prophecy!

I had already /feedbacked before posting this post. I think in this post, I wanted to:
- alert at least some of the those unaware of the 50-feed cap.
- try to get some idea of how many people were caught out by this, to get an idea of scale.

I think the latter is a lost cause, now, though. I reckon nobody'll be posting here to say "oh, yeah, that got me, too" - they'll see a page of flame and anger and move to the next thread. Ah, well. Lesson learned. Sorry again: will try to be more constructive in future!

Eris

Did you think you could infinitely upgrade the horses? It seemed to me that the status bar continuously going up with each purchase moving inexorably towards the end point would be a good indication.

Alyrn_Grey

And? I'm baffled by this.

I went right away when I encountered horses and asked questions right here and got good solid answers. Hell if you search in this forum you can find multiple threads that have all the details about horses.

So my question again is ... And?

Laerian

Wait a sec, so you are all saying that my Imperial Horse from the shiny Collector Edition (Imperial) is condemned to stay as a mediocre horse.

I'm afraid that Napoleon's white horse is not white this time.

Medwin

You have your normal horse which is 17k, the horse you buy for money are equal to those horses. As for horses getting to only 50 while the number is not obvious, but did you really think they leveled forever? How unfair would that be if a year from now there are people with 300+ buffs on their horse and other folks are just trying to get into the game.

Kronosphere

sooooooooo... you thought u could keep feeding your horse apples till it can run infinitely closer to the speed of light? of course there is a cap. every mmo/game has caps on things like this.