Lots of Empty Containers after Update

PF1901

Seems like soon the market will be flooded with lockpicks.
Not very happy with this change at the moment but I guess I'll have to give it some time before making a final judgement.

Thesiren

I think Zenimax swung the nerf bat a bit too heavily here. Since the patch, 75% of the drawers, chests and desks either show as empty, or look like they have something in them, but when clicked on, nothing comes out and they automatically switch to showing as "empty." And this is on my first login of the night after work, with the first character I select. No spamming going on here. And it happens to my daughter on her account, too.

Not to mention that provisioners are totally screwed.

ArcaneBlue

oh so it's not just me then.
9/10 times drawers/cabinets etc becomes empty after I open them (and I don't use auto-loot) and IF I can loot something, it's usually just a lockpick like some of you have said.

I rely on cabinets and drawers to get some craft mats (eg. moonstone molybdenum etc) and recipes so it's gonna be hard for me to craft things.
and yes I know some vendors have those but why buy when you can (or could) just loot them?

has anybody talked to zeni about this?

grizzbi

They probably noticed that any player - provisioner or not - can gather way too quickly enough materials to feed a whole army. I'm a provisioner and I want materials to be more rare and valuable. Finally people will buy my food. Finally!

I noticed maybe a few changes. But it could be the zone or just a feeling. I hope it's not!

If it's true, I hope of course that they do the same with all the materials and items in game. I think it's too easy to find plants (I'm alchemist). And too easy to loot green/blue items. glyphs, etc..

To each his own role. Anyone should be able to reap the fruits of his labor. But it should need some time and investment.

They are certainly monitoring all of that. They probably didn't want the game to be too challenging at first. But now they balance the different game mechanics. It's an on going process.

I can't believe people are always upset when a company is trying to balance the game to make it interesting and more rewarding.

More challenging = more rewarding = more fun.

Laerian

grizzbi wrote: »

They probably noticed that any player - provisioner or not - can gather way too quickly enough materials to feed a whole army. I'm a provisioner and I want materials to be more rare and valuable. Finally people will buy my food. Finally!

This "air" effect only affects containers that drop recipes and motifs. Sacks, baskets, crates still drop ingredients as always. In fact, it seems that desks, cabinets, trunks, etc are dropping MORE ingredients than before.
The only thing that can benefit you is the fact that fortified recipes for new players will be more rare.

About your last sentence. This doesn't increase the "challenge" (this was never about challenge anyways), only adds frustration and it's against a very known TES concept of looting.

Not only this was advertised as a innovative feature but Zeni already announced more! "Increased ability to pick up items in the world". So, who do we have to believe?, Matt or the stealth nerfers.

ArcaneBlue

Laerian wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

They probably noticed that any player - provisioner or not - can gather way too quickly enough materials to feed a whole army. I'm a provisioner and I want materials to be more rare and valuable. Finally people will buy my food. Finally!

About your last sentence. This doesn't increase the "challenge" (this was never about challenge anyways), only adds frustration and it's against a very known TES concept of looting.

^this. if they ARE empty please display "empty", and if they are not displaying empty, we should be able to get SOMETHING, be it a lockpick or a food mat or whatever.
(well I've got tons of lockpick though)

some may disagree with me though, saying "oh it is way too easy to farm stuff at this stage so I don't know why you're so upset about empty containers"

mongo94

Yes they have NERFED the item containers and its now Crap.

Half of everything I open is empty, It was not like this a patch back and it needs to be fixed.

BmcD73

Someone said it earlier, just make motifs and recipes drop from mobs. Make them rare. But they are so rare and all my tests have shown that the more you loot, the more empty containers you will get. So this is just training people to stop looting containers. I know I have completely stopped wasting any time looting containers which is counter to what they wanted...counter to Elder Scrolls in general.

nerevarine1138

I love RNG threads. Because armchair statisticians all come out in force to explain that they've done scientific testing to verify that drop rates are all bad. Because there's no other possible explanation as to why they haven't gotten the drops they want.

Laerian

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I love RNG threads. Because armchair statisticians all come out in force to explain that they've done scientific testing to verify that drop rates are all bad. Because there's no other possible explanation as to why they haven't gotten the drops they want.

Maybe you can test it yourself instead of speaking what you have no idea.

Censorious

Don't feed the troll.

BmcD73

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I love RNG threads. Because armchair statisticians all come out in force to explain that they've done scientific testing to verify that drop rates are all bad. Because there's no other possible explanation as to why they haven't gotten the drops they want.

I love troll posts. They read the OP, jump to a ton of conclusions without reading anything else, then post something inflammatory just to get under people's skin.

Since obviously you are a PHD in statistics, please explain how every time I logged in the number of empty containers increased. While this is statistically possible, it is very improbable. Couple that with the patch notes for PTS and it is a very easy conclusion that this week's patch had this change included.

Gwarok

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Because armchair statisticians all come out in force to explain that they've done scientific testing to verify that drop rates are all bad. Because there's no other possible explanation as to why they haven't gotten the drops they want.

Like I said earlier, green staves with crappy stats, worms, lock picks, and I am now adding plump maggots to the list that is, if what ever we open are not empty.

Nothing more needs to be said

grizzbi

Laerian wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

They probably noticed that any player - provisioner or not - can gather way too quickly enough materials to feed a whole army. I'm a provisioner and I want materials to be more rare and valuable. Finally people will buy my food. Finally!

This "air" effect only affects containers that drop recipes and motifs. Sacks, baskets, crates still drop ingredients as always. In fact, it seems that desks, cabinets, trunks, etc are dropping MORE ingredients than before.
The only thing that can benefit you is the fact that fortified recipes for new players will be more rare.

About your last sentence. This doesn't increase the "challenge" (this was never about challenge anyways), only adds frustration and it's against a very known TES concept of looting.

Not only this was advertised as a innovative feature but Zeni already announced more! "Increased ability to pick up items in the world". So, who do we have to believe?, Matt or the stealth nerfers.

Motifs are all over the place: every 2 minutes someone is selling several if not all of them in the chat. Either the "drop rate" is (was?) too high or I'm missing something. These are not a personal feeling but a fact that anyone can note.

By the way, I've no problem finding or buying the recipes I need.

And as I said, I would accept the fact that they are more rare. Because in this case it would be the case for everybody. So it would just make them more valuable.

About the "TES concept of looting": you can't compare the balance of a single player game with a mmorpg. Things have to be different for obvious reason..

If ZOS is changing things, they probably have good reason. Because, you know, they don't feel a "air effect": they have real numbers. There's no conspiracy against the player, just an on going process to balance the game..

And "Increased ability to pick up items in the world" certainly doesn't mean "increased drop rate of existing items".New items which will be available to pick up...

KariTR

BmcD73 wrote: »

Taven wrote: »

Censorious wrote: »

It looks like there is now a timer. It seems to be set on around two hours. After that the containers gradually start to re-fill.
There's no clear-cut point where all of them become lootable together, it's a gradual reset.

Source? I would love for them to just own up to nerfing it. Much better than all this guess work we are doing.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87867/patch-notes-v-1-1-inc-craglorn-from-pts

"The rate at which you can earn racial motifs and provisioning recipes from lootable containers and furniture has been slightly reduced."

This is all we have atm and the testing I have done that pretty much confirms this. So the probability of getting decent loot coupled with the loot timer makes looting containers a total waste of time.

I only look in containers when I pop to the bank to deposit stuff for my alts. (That is, I am not repeatedly logging in/out just to open drawers). Yesterday I picked up 2 racials and today I got another right as I logged in.

In short, I will carry on wasting my time

Seraseth

I don't really have an issue with them lowering drop rates (well, obviously I don't like it since blue recipes were already rare, and if you lower the amount of containers it gets extremely rare, but I can deal with it)

The problem is that a container should always show as empty when it's empty. You should never have to waste time opening empty containers. Like others said, it trains players that containers are worthless and you should never waste your time on them. Very anti-ES.

Also, more communication would be nice, as always.

Edit: I'm hoping this is a side effect of a sloppy quick-fix, of spawning the containers, then deleting the contents based on the current drop rate or something, and that they will go re-work the code properly.

nerevarine1138

It's not trolling.

You guys ever hear of Red Car Syndrome? Or confirmation bias?

You have zero actual data to support the notion that more containers are empty now than before 1.0.6. Mainly because you weren't collecting data before the patch. Perception is always biased unless you actually did data collection. Quit thinking that random is biased against you.

Laerian

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's not trolling.

You guys ever hear of Red Car Syndrome? Or confirmation bias?

You have zero actual data to support the notion that more containers are empty now than before 1.0.6. Mainly because you weren't collecting data before the patch. Perception is always biased unless you actually did data collection. Quit thinking that random is biased against you.

You don't understand, this is not a "perception" issue.

After the last patch some containers -those that drop motifs and recipes- appear not labeled as "empty" but with nothing inside. This is a complete different behaviour than before.

You may go to check some houses for desks and cabinets and see yourself. As more you open, the number of containers with nothing inside increases markedly.

---

nerevarine1138

Laerian wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's not trolling.

You guys ever hear of Red Car Syndrome? Or confirmation bias?

You have zero actual data to support the notion that more containers are empty now than before 1.0.6. Mainly because you weren't collecting data before the patch. Perception is always biased unless you actually did data collection. Quit thinking that random is biased against you.

You don't understand, this is not a "perception" issue.

After the last patch some containers -those that drop motifs and recipes- appear not labeled as "empty" but with nothing inside. This is a complete different behaviour than before.

You may go to check some houses for desks and cabinets and see yourself. As more you open, the number of containers with nothing inside increases markedly.

---

You don't understand.

Before the patch, containers not marked as "empty" before you searched them could still end up being empty. That's not new behavior. You're just noticing it now, and you're ascribing it to a change in game mechanics that hasn't happened.

Red. Car. Syndrome.

Seraseth

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Before the patch, containers not marked as "empty" before you searched them could still end up being empty. That's not new behavior. You're just noticing it now, and you're ascribing it to a change in game mechanics that hasn't happened.

I have never once since early release opened a single container not marked as empty and not gotten something out of it. And I mass loot every single lootable object everywhere I go. That is new behavior, not a bias.

nerevarine1138

Seraseth wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Before the patch, containers not marked as "empty" before you searched them could still end up being empty. That's not new behavior. You're just noticing it now, and you're ascribing it to a change in game mechanics that hasn't happened.

I have never once since early release opened a single container not marked as empty and not gotten something out of it. And I mass loot every single lootable object everywhere I go. That is new behavior, not a bias.

I have seen that behavior before the patch. I also mass-loot every container I come across.

*gasp*

Did I just blow your mind?

Jarvius

What I recognized today: In the city, I had a percentage of 100% empty (yes, 100%. I did not find ANY drawer, cupboard, barrel whatever with anything inside) for checking every building in the city.
As soon as I left the city to continue with my quests, I found the usual percentage of food in barrels, crates, etc again like before.

So it looks to me that actually only the houses in the city have been changed.
Also I received a food recipe as a mob drop today. This was the first time for me, so I don't know if this was already the case before.

nerevarine1138

Jarvius wrote: »

What I recognized today: In the city, I had a percentage of 100% empty (yes, 100%. I did not find ANY drawer, cupboard, barrel whatever with anything inside) for checking every building in the city.
As soon as I left the city to continue with my quests, I found the usual percentage of food in barrels, crates, etc again like before.

So it looks to me that actually only the houses in the city have been changed.
Also I received a food recipe as a mob drop today. This was the first time for me, so I don't know if this was already the case before.

But when I was in the city today, I had a 100% drop rate in the cupboards, while anything outside of the city was 0%.

So clearly, my game has a bug that makes it think I'm in the city when I'm in the country. Because random chance has no effect on anything ever.

BmcD73

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

It's not trolling.

You guys ever hear of Red Car Syndrome? Or confirmation bias?

You have zero actual data to support the notion that more containers are empty now than before 1.0.6. Mainly because you weren't collecting data before the patch. Perception is always biased unless you actually did data collection. Quit thinking that random is biased against you.

Here is my data...again. If you actually read past the first and last post you would have seen it. It is VERY clear that I received more empty containers every time I logged back in. There is no perception here. It is data. Raw data. It may not be some super scientific, statistical test bed but it is repeatable.

On top of that I ran the same test looting containers in 6 different locations in 2 zones without logging in. My percent empty steadily increased to about 90% empty. Again, not bias or perception. Data. So instead of just throwing your own perceptions out, run your own test. Spend some time documenting it like I did.

total objects with items (non-lockpicks)
11111111
11111111
111111
111111
1111
111

total objects with lockpicks
11111
111
11111
111
1111111111
1111

total empty
11111111
1111111111
1111111111
111111111111
1111111
11111111111111

total empty or with lockpicks
1111111111111
1111111111111
111111111111111
111111111111111
1111111111111111
111111111111111111

nerevarine1138

So you ran comparison testing pre-patch and post-patch?

I must have missed that post...

I also must have missed where 6 became a representative sample size.

reggielee

sounds great to me, it will inhibit the logging on /off to loot containers constantly borderline exploit thats been going on. its being botted to death. If you adventure and loot as you go, there is no problem with drops, only if you repeatedly farm the same location and use the log tactic.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

BmcD73 wrote: »

Danarchist wrote: »

There was one shack in the Stonefalls area that for some reason I would get motifs out of constantly, to the point where I would swing by there as part of my daily routine. After the first week of the game I noticed while standing around in there chatting or watching tv etc I would see characters named like Gbdsbv log in, run around the room once, then disappear. This happened more than once in "My house" and I reported it.

Although not much different than what I was doing technically, it appeared to be an automated script as the character would pause at every piece of furniture for a few seconds even though I had already emptied it. I am guessing if I saw this a few times it was happening constantly and regularly, likely in numerous locations. Nerfing "relooting" is slightly annoying, but anything that puts a boot in the spammer butt I am good with. Plus both my crafters have all their motifs now =P only had to buy Khajiit

Well the problem with this is that not everyone has all the things you do. Not everyone is a gold spammer. This affects everyone and we can't be so short sighted and say, "well I don't need it so I really don't care" or "I already have it so I'm fine with everyone else getting hosed". I too have all my motifs but I can see this being a problem and a very slippery slope.

Farming should not be "against" any sort of rules. The accumulation of wealth in game should not be against the rules as long as it doesn't affect other people.

For instance, let's say Adfadflkj logged in and out every day, all day long. He/She/It may have looted 3 motifs...maybe 4. While anything new starts out high, the price will eventually go down. They may be driving the price down and capitalizing on the "new" factor but so what? If they want to spend all day farming iron or calcinium...so what? Let them.

In headstart, I was selling motifs for around 2-3k each because they were new and everyone wanted them. Now they are selling for a couple hundred. The higher end motifs are rare and are selling for 10s of thousands. In a few weeks, that will change as more and more people have access to get them. Changing the mechanic to find these hidden treasures in containers just doesn't seem right.

One main flaw in your whole "farming shouldn't be against the rules" is that if a player can exploit farming for profit then so can a professional farmer. No if or buts, that is just a simple fact.

I would far rather have to work at raising funds through playing the game than have to live through all those epically bad dungeons trying to get get one hit on the boss before the farmers kill them.

The things in those contains can be used to create food and sold for cash and using a skill point or two you can increase the numbers you make. This is a legit way to way money for a player but can also be abused by farmers, now the net is closing on the easier means.

Genomic

I just really wish ZOS were transparent with these things. The patch notes are always so sparse (i.e. don't describe a fraction of the actual changes made) and then there is no feedback at all about the hidden changes that people have issue with, such as this one. I'm sorry, but it just feels a bit underhanded and even a little deceitful.

ArcaneBlue

again, it's not the empty containers themselves or decreased motif drop rates that bother me, (well, they do... a little)
it's the containers being "lootable" first and then become empty soon as you open them.

Thesiren

Genomic wrote: »

I just really wish ZOS were transparent with these things. The patch notes are always so sparse (i.e. don't describe a fraction of the actual changes made) and then there is no feedback at all about the hidden changes that people have issue with, such as this one. I'm sorry, but it just feels a bit underhanded and even a little deceitful.

I agree. And it opens the door to mistrust anytime RNG drops. People will suspect the worst constantly from now on.