Should they nerv the Sorcerer Teleport

casselna_ESO

Yes

I voted yes. It needs to be changed. Sorcs know it, we know it, and ZoS knows it I'm sure. Just, atm, no one knows exactly what to do to balance it.

The people asking for a nerf are not asking it be pounded into Oblivion and made so useless that it is not even worth slotting. No, they are asking for a balance, a way to bring it in line with *other* charge/escape tools.

As it stands now, repeatedly using this is a get out of jail free card, which no other class has access to. Even a NB with their stealth still must risk getting caught while people spam AoE's trying to find stealth combatants. If he gets away, it wasn't without risk, however, with a sorc, it is risk free.

Travail

Yes

Memnock wrote: »

@ Travail would your idea of balancing a skill that helps a sorc escape , be also applied to the other gap closers that the rest of the classes have along with the 2 weapon skill lines that have this as well ? Cuz right now , i am using bolt escape and like you said it is not a guaranteed escape , if i encounter players who actually read what the skills and morphs of the abilities they are using are doing.

I met a DK that consistently pulled me back whenever i tried to get away , then a templar with 2h that charged me and jabbed me to death , again situation i couldn't escape with Bold Escape.

Now players like there 2 come around once in a blue moon , but they are out there none the less.

All i see when looking at the posts here ,is a lot of people who try to pvp in first person , because if you zoom out and see in which direction the sorc bolting you can FREAKING CATCH UP TO HIM , with either your class gap closers , or if you have a a 2H or sword and shield.

So if the sorcs only method of escape is to be nerfed , by increasing its mana cost , then the other gap closers should be brought in line as well. Like i said in an earlier post , as an example , if Bold Escape should cost 7-800 mana , then the rest of the pulls and charges should cost 7-800 mana/stamina as well.

Charge attacks require a target, or they cannot be cast. This means that they must be timed perfectly to interrupt to Sorc during their first cast of Bolt Escape, or the Sorc is gone forever (any Sorc standing more than 3 meters from you will be out of range of charges and Fiery Grip after their first successful Bolt Escape.) Because charges can't be used without a valid target, they are not in the same boat as Bolt Escape.

If you could use a charge attack without a target (which I would totally support, and have suggested elsewhere) then of course they should be balanced accordingly.

My suggested nerf to Bolt Escape is to give it a 3 second cooldown. This would give enemy players time between 2 teleports to attempt to target the Sorc; as opposed to the Sorc only showing up for a split-second before Bolt Escaping a second time. This is my attempt to balance Bolt Escape against the other mobility tools in the game, most of which require targets (with the exception of Path of Darkness.)

A Sorc who could only Bolt Escape every 3 seconds would still be incredibly mobile. For example, they'd be able to sprint for those three seconds, or they could try to go invisible and LOS their enemy. There would still be tons of options open to them. All I'm looking to remedy is the low skill requirement to use Bolt Escape. I want Sorcerers to be able to escape using this ability; but I also want their escape to be more involved than simply pressing a single key repeatedly.

A DK using Fiery Grip on you is a great thing. This means we have now developed "counter play." You Bolt Escape away from the DK. So, the DK puts Fiery Grip on his bar to counter you. You see him countering your Bolt Escape, so now you have to place something like Immovable on your bar to counter his hard CC. This is a good thing. Your powerful abilities should have counters, and it's great that there's a couple out there for Bolt Escape.

The problem is that spamming Bolt Escape is a LOT easier than timing Fiery Grip at the exact moment necessary to interrupt Bolt Escape. That skill differential is too large, allowing the majority of Sorcs to succeed in their BE attempts. A counter should be... a counter. It shouldn't be a counter only when the moons align and I pray to the right gods, and those gods are feeling charitable.

A smart DK who slots his Fiery Grip should be able to counter your Bolt Escape, and he should be able to counter it fairly easily. That's something not everyone on the other side of the issue understands. When the DK (or anyone else) is provided with a hard counter for Bolt Escape, it FORCES the Sorcerer to change their tactics. If the counters to Bolt Escape aren't reliable enough to scare any Sorcerers into thinking twice about their chosen playstyle, then those aren't effective counters. At least, they aren't doing their job of encouraging "counter play", which is what good action combat is based around.

Ideally, Fiery Grip would also have a counter. Oh, wait, IT DOES. It's called "Immovable," a skill which makes you completely, 100% immune to Fiery Grip (and all other hard CC) for 8 seconds. Not to mention you can break-out, which also offers an immunity to further Fiery Grips. Oh, and you can also block it.

See how easy it is to counter Fiery Grip? And yet, it's still a good ability, and players still use it. It's FAR FAR HARDER to counter Bolt Escape, not to mention players have to slot specific skills to do it (unlike block, or CC immunity which everyone has inherent at all times by hitting RMB+LMB.) Fiery Grip is a balanced skill. It's absolutely infuriating sometimes when a DK catches you with it and pulls you into a zerg where you promptly get your ass handed to you. But it's also relatively simple to counter, so there's no problem.

Bolt Escape doesn't need to be quite that easy to counter (Fiery Grip offers better synergy with group play) but it does need to be easier to counter than it currently is. Giving enemy players a few seconds of wiggle room to target the Sorc before they BE a second time to reach 40 meters of distance and are gone forever would be a positive change for the game.

-Travail.

Cheatingdeath23

Travail wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

@ Travail would your idea of balancing a skill that helps a sorc escape , be also applied to the other gap closers that the rest of the classes have along with the 2 weapon skill lines that have this as well ? Cuz right now , i am using bolt escape and like you said it is not a guaranteed escape , if i encounter players who actually read what the skills and morphs of the abilities they are using are doing.

I met a DK that consistently pulled me back whenever i tried to get away , then a templar with 2h that charged me and jabbed me to death , again situation i couldn't escape with Bold Escape.

Now players like there 2 come around once in a blue moon , but they are out there none the less.

All i see when looking at the posts here ,is a lot of people who try to pvp in first person , because if you zoom out and see in which direction the sorc bolting you can FREAKING CATCH UP TO HIM , with either your class gap closers , or if you have a a 2H or sword and shield.

So if the sorcs only method of escape is to be nerfed , by increasing its mana cost , then the other gap closers should be brought in line as well. Like i said in an earlier post , as an example , if Bold Escape should cost 7-800 mana , then the rest of the pulls and charges should cost 7-800 mana/stamina as well.

Charge attacks require a target, or they cannot be cast. This means that they must be timed perfectly to interrupt to Sorc during their first cast of Bolt Escape, or the Sorc is gone forever (any Sorc standing more than 3 meters from you will be out of range of charges and Fiery Grip after their first successful Bolt Escape.) Because charges can't be used without a valid target, they are not in the same boat as Bolt Escape.

If you could use a charge attack without a target (which I would totally support, and have suggested elsewhere) then of course they should be balanced accordingly.

My suggested nerf to Bolt Escape is to give it a 3 second cooldown. This would give enemy players time between 2 teleports to attempt to target the Sorc; as opposed to the Sorc only showing up for a split-second before Bolt Escaping a second time. This is my attempt to balance Bolt Escape against the other mobility tools in the game, most of which require targets (with the exception of Path of Darkness.)

A Sorc who could only Bolt Escape every 3 seconds would still be incredibly mobile. For example, they'd be able to sprint for those three seconds, or they could try to go invisible and LOS their enemy. There would still be tons of options open to them. All I'm looking to remedy is the low skill requirement to use Bolt Escape. I want Sorcerers to be able to escape using this ability; but I also want their escape to be more involved than simply pressing a single key repeatedly.

-Travail.

As someone who uses Charge, I am intrigued by the idea of being able to use it without a target. Often when being swarmed I will try to find someone on the edge and charge them to get away from everyone else.


My concern would be that if you can charge without a target, how likely are you to try to charge someone and miss completely? As it is now, I can keep spamming the button until a target is found, which is convenient as friendlies get between me and the potential target.

NordJitsu

No

First, here's some mechanical explanations of the counters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kfzJ1lNlU4


Second, here's a video of one of the lead QQ'ers demonstrating those mechanics in action (though somehow still claiming he didn't counter it....? )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfoNKUloPjU

Nijjion

Yes

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

Cheatingdeath23

Nijjion wrote: »

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

I thought the videos were interesting.

Short summary:
If close to the mage, use a charge attack when they try to bolt escape
If at more range, use the javelin to stun mages during bolt escape

If the mage gets two bolts away, do not pursue unless you are an archer and have hasty retreat.

NordJitsu

No

Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

I thought the videos were interesting.

Short summary:
If close to the mage, use a charge attack when they try to bolt escape
If at more range, use the javelin to stun mages during bolt escape

If the mage gets two bolts away, do not pursue unless you are an archer and have hasty retreat.

@Cheatingdeath23‌

Pretty solid summary. Any ranged knock down will work though, doesn't have to be Javelin. And most of the charges have a 22m range, so you don't even really have to be that close.

Obscure

No

NordJitsu wrote: »

Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

I thought the videos were interesting.

Short summary:
If close to the mage, use a charge attack when they try to bolt escape
If at more range, use the javelin to stun mages during bolt escape

If the mage gets two bolts away, do not pursue unless you are an archer and have hasty retreat.

@Cheatingdeath23‌

Pretty solid summary. Any ranged knock down will work though, doesn't have to be Javelin. And most of the charges have a 22m range, so you don't even really have to be that close.

Bow > Bolt

As soon as your in range popping them with a Draining Shot will travel all the way to their Bolt location and stun them there. Bombard will cut down in their running while regening. Then you just keep nagging them with basic attacks until they flop over and die. Medium armor + Bow is hard for anyone to get away from... and I use speed pots too...

I enjoy the chase. It's a race that if I win I get alliance points. Not built for speed? Well why the hell are you mad about losing the race? A CAT Bulldozer isn't going to beat a Buggatti Veyron...but it'll jack one up pretty good if it's parked though.

NordJitsu

No

Obscure wrote: »

I enjoy the chase. It's a race that if I win I get alliance points. Not built for speed? Well why the hell are you mad about losing the race? A CAT Bulldozer isn't going to beat a Buggatti Veyron...but it'll jack one up pretty good if it's parked though.

Going to post this every where. Amazing analogy.

XILoKoIX

+1000000 Obscure.

NordJitsu

No

https://imgur.com/RHkTuZq

Still_Mind

Yes

NordJitsu wrote: »

https://imgur.com/RHkTuZq

The Lion needs a DK standard planted near it, and a chain around its paw.

NordJitsu

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

https://imgur.com/RHkTuZq

The Lion needs a DK standard planted near it, and a chain around its paw.

Someone who cares more than me should totally get right on that.

Blinks

Yes

So its fine for a skill to be spammable, which is faster than a mount whilst sprinting...I think not, NERF the damn skill and increase its magicka cost so easy mode nubs cant abuse it.

Travail

Yes

NordJitsu wrote: »

Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

I thought the videos were interesting.

Short summary:
If close to the mage, use a charge attack when they try to bolt escape
If at more range, use the javelin to stun mages during bolt escape

If the mage gets two bolts away, do not pursue unless you are an archer and have hasty retreat.

@Cheatingdeath23‌

Pretty solid summary. Any ranged knock down will work though, doesn't have to be Javelin. And most of the charges have a 22m range, so you don't even really have to be that close.

Bolt Escape moves you 20 meters. So, you have to be within 3 meters of the Sorc to reliably counter their move with a 22 meter charge or the Javelin (many other CC moves have even less range, like Frost Reach, Stone Fist, etc.)

If you are further away then that, it means you have exactly 1 shot to counter them, or they are gone forever, because they are now out of range of your counter move. And unless your reticle is already hovering over them, the instant movement of Bolt Escape (unlike Path of Darkness, where the character is running to cover the distance) makes these players very hard to actually target. This is only made worse in group settings (where players cover up each other's hit boxes, sometimes making single-target literally impossible to aim, nevermind when given only a split-second to do so) and we all know group play makes up the vast majority of PvP encounters.

You guys keep talking about countering Bolt Escape in a vacuum; under test conditions. Anyone who gets ready for a Sorc to Bolt Escape, and is just waiting for it, obviously can counter it each and every time. That really only works in a 1v1 situation when you know your target, though, and we all know 1v1 duels aren't what we see in the majority of PvP. Even in a small encounter, like an 8v8 say, it will be hard to single out a Sorc to prevent them from using this skill the first time (after which, as I said, they are already out of range of most of the counters, which are 22 meters or less.) Increase that to 15v15, or 24v24, and suddenly we see how ridiculously easy it is for a Sorc character to continually flit away with impunity, while continuing to attack from the back of their group.

By contrast, something like Path of Darkness gives enemy players lots of time (the full 5 second duration of it) to counter the first use of the ability (before the NB gets out of range) because you have the benefit of seeing the Nightblade running over the terrain the whole time. It's not an instantaneous disappearing act which must be countered the moment it's cast. That's a lot more forgiving to whoever's trying to counter it, even if technically the NB is moving a little faster over the long haul than a Bolt Escaping Sorc.

As I've said repeatedly, it's not really about how fast the Sorc is moving, it's about the high skill differential between the Sorc who's using it (who can be a total derp and still effectively spam a single button) and the player who's trying to counter it (someone who needs to be good at skill shots, needs to know their opponent, needs to be able to anticipate when their enemy will use the skill, etc.)

-Travail.

Still_Mind

Yes

NordJitsu wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

https://imgur.com/RHkTuZq

The Lion needs a DK standard planted near it, and a chain around its paw.

Someone who cares more than me should totally get right on that.

You do seem to care a lot about Talons nerfs, while it has even more FOO (First Order Optimal) counters. Bolt being one such FOO counter, ironically.

Harakh

Yes

Nerf i say! i want to see the tears of the little flashy thing

XILoKoIX

BE didn't work so well for me yesterday, i was BE'ing for my life away from 10 blues and they caught me.

BE is so OP.

Obscure

No

@Still_Mind
Think your confusing what this so called "FOO" strategy is. Using Bolt escape doesn't win any fights, and most definitely is not "First Order Optimal" which IMO is a unnecessarily complicated term, the common English word for that is "Easy" or the expression "User Friendly". The context is the easy strategy gives a player high power for low skill... Bolt doesn't do that at all. I've literally encountered 1 Sorc who used Bolt during a fight and the guy was incredibly skilled in timing the stun and being vigilant about staying just out of melee yet making it tough to target him at range. Using Bolt to run from a fight is not in any way winning any fights, using it to win fights takes a very skilled player. This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Still_Mind

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Why? You can disengage, then reengage at your convenience. Sun Tzu would dig that.

Moonchilde

You've got a lot of nerv asking that question

Obscure

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Why? You can disengage, then reengage at your convenience. Sun Tzu would dig that.

That doesn't present a high power low skill option. A high power low skill opinion would enable to the Sorc to just kill or successfully overpower whatever is attacking them, the fact they are running away with the skill and not killing the enemy with it demonstrates how low power the skill actually is. Now if ESO was a racing game in which the fastest to the finish line wins then you may have a high power option, but that just isn't the case. Being fast on the disengage is great, but disengagement isn't winning, it's retreating, and that's what the person losing does. The person winning is the person running them down in medium armor, bow dodging, and speed poting, drilling them in the back of the head with arrows.

Still_Mind

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Why? You can disengage, then reengage at your convenience. Sun Tzu would dig that.

That doesn't present a high power low skill option. A high power low skill opinion would enable to the Sorc to just kill or successfully overpower whatever is attacking them, the fact they are running away with the skill and not killing the enemy with it demonstrates how low power the skill actually is. Now if ESO was a racing game in which the fastest to the finish line wins then you may have a high power option, but that just isn't the case. Being fast on the disengage is great, but disengagement isn't winning, it's retreating, and that's what the person losing does. The person winning is the person running them down in medium armor, bow dodging, and speed poting, drilling them in the back of the head with arrows.

Semantics. Kill or be killed perception has a very... singular dimension. Bolt escape is an escape mechanism. It's efficient, easy-to-use, powerful in combination with other mechanics (you can also bow-dodge, speedpot, shove instant shards in their face, when appropriate, etc.).

Obscure

No

Still_Mind wrote: »

"Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Why? You can disengage, then reengage at your convenience. Sun Tzu would dig that.

That doesn't present a high power low skill option. A high power low skill opinion would enable to the Sorc to just kill or successfully overpower whatever is attacking them, the fact they are running away with the skill and not killing the enemy with it demonstrates how low power the skill actually is. Now if ESO was a racing game in which the fastest to the finish line wins then you may have a high power option, but that just isn't the case. Being fast on the disengage is great, but disengagement isn't winning, it's retreating, and that's what the person losing does. The person winning is the person running them down in medium armor, bow dodging, and speed poting, drilling them in the back of the head with arrows.

Semantics. Kill or be killed perception has a very... singular dimension. Bolt escape is an escape mechanism. It's efficient, easy-to-use, powerful in combination with other mechanics (you can also bow-dodge, speedpot, shove instant shards in their face, when appropriate, etc.).

That's not semantics at all... There's powerful skills that take no skill to use and Bolt isn't one of them. I have encountered exactly one player using it to attack and it took some very skilled play to do so. Totally handed me my ass.

Bolt Escape isn't at all in line with "kill or be killed"...it's run or be killed. No one is dying from Bolt spam...except for the Sorc spamming it who gets caught up to. The power of the ability comes from skill, the utility of it has more than one counter, and all the "Nerf eet nahw! QQ Sorc 2 fast!" comes from players refusing to build to counter.

If I can catch a Sorc with no class abilities to enhance my speed, no one has an excuse. Then there's the: "But I want to play my way, I don't want to be forced to use something I don't want to use!" nonsense. BAD is never going to be a respectable play style. Run around naked punching people if you'd like, but when I show up and murder you, you have no right to be upset; your not built to handle damage. Same goes for the Sorc you haven't built to chase down or lock down.

Izzban

TheRealSkippy wrote: »

at least in PvP

I voted for "I don't know what a Nerv is." You could have at least taken the time to proofread the six words of your poll question, even if it was too much bother to explain anything else.

On topic: ya, man, like, not for, like, PVP, and stuff, or whatever, man.

Therium104

NordJitsu wrote: »

Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

@NordJitu

1st video - Most of those points are void except the one with speed increase.

2nd video - Sorc could of got away twice so that's voided as well.

I thought the videos were interesting.

Short summary:
If close to the mage, use a charge attack when they try to bolt escape
If at more range, use the javelin to stun mages during bolt escape

If the mage gets two bolts away, do not pursue unless you are an archer and have hasty retreat.

@Cheatingdeath23‌

Pretty solid summary. Any ranged knock down will work though, doesn't have to be Javelin. And most of the charges have a 22m range, so you don't even really have to be that close.

NordJitsu wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

https://imgur.com/RHkTuZq

The Lion needs a DK standard planted near it, and a chain around its paw.

Someone who cares more than me should totally get right on that.

First, your videos are stupid biased garbage. Second, no one has provided a sound and realistic counter. Your garbage does not count.

So what class do you play?

Still_Mind

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

"Obscure wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Why? You can disengage, then reengage at your convenience. Sun Tzu would dig that.

That doesn't present a high power low skill option. A high power low skill opinion would enable to the Sorc to just kill or successfully overpower whatever is attacking them, the fact they are running away with the skill and not killing the enemy with it demonstrates how low power the skill actually is. Now if ESO was a racing game in which the fastest to the finish line wins then you may have a high power option, but that just isn't the case. Being fast on the disengage is great, but disengagement isn't winning, it's retreating, and that's what the person losing does. The person winning is the person running them down in medium armor, bow dodging, and speed poting, drilling them in the back of the head with arrows.

Semantics. Kill or be killed perception has a very... singular dimension. Bolt escape is an escape mechanism. It's efficient, easy-to-use, powerful in combination with other mechanics (you can also bow-dodge, speedpot, shove instant shards in their face, when appropriate, etc.).

That's not semantics at all... There's powerful skills that take no skill to use and Bolt isn't one of them. I have encountered exactly one player using it to attack and it took some very skilled play to do so. Totally handed me my ass.

Bolt Escape isn't at all in line with "kill or be killed"...it's run or be killed. No one is dying from Bolt spam...except for the Sorc spamming it who gets caught up to. The power of the ability comes from skill, the utility of it has more than one counter, and all the "Nerf eet nahw! QQ Sorc 2 fast!" comes from players refusing to build to counter.

If I can catch a Sorc with no class abilities to enhance my speed, no one has an excuse. Then there's the: "But I want to play my way, I don't want to be forced to use something I don't want to use!" nonsense. BAD is never going to be a respectable play style. Run around naked punching people if you'd like, but when I show up and murder you, you have no right to be upset; your not built to handle damage. Same goes for the Sorc you haven't built to chase down or lock down.

Read\listen to what a FOO strategy is, meditate, read\listen again, meditate. Repeat until enlightenment is attained. Be careful not to destroy the world with the power that this understanding will grant you.

Travail

Yes

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
Think your confusing what this so called "FOO" strategy is. Using Bolt escape doesn't win any fights, and most definitely is not "First Order Optimal" which IMO is a unnecessarily complicated term, the common English word for that is "Easy" or the expression "User Friendly". The context is the easy strategy gives a player high power for low skill... Bolt doesn't do that at all. I've literally encountered 1 Sorc who used Bolt during a fight and the guy was incredibly skilled in timing the stun and being vigilant about staying just out of melee yet making it tough to target him at range. Using Bolt to run from a fight is not in any way winning any fights, using it to win fights takes a very skilled player. This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Of course it does, in a game where having 1 person in a group survive is vastly better than having the full group die.

As I've stated, over and over again, having 1 person get away and lay down a forward camp is definitely, 100%, more advantageous than that one person maybe landing one additional killing blow before dying.

Retreat is a VALID TACTIC, and often the right tactic. To say that retreating is never a good strategy is to completely fail to understand warfare. Your definition of "power" is too narrow.

-Travail.

Still_Mind

Yes

Travail wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
Think your confusing what this so called "FOO" strategy is. Using Bolt escape doesn't win any fights, and most definitely is not "First Order Optimal" which IMO is a unnecessarily complicated term, the common English word for that is "Easy" or the expression "User Friendly". The context is the easy strategy gives a player high power for low skill... Bolt doesn't do that at all. I've literally encountered 1 Sorc who used Bolt during a fight and the guy was incredibly skilled in timing the stun and being vigilant about staying just out of melee yet making it tough to target him at range. Using Bolt to run from a fight is not in any way winning any fights, using it to win fights takes a very skilled player. This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Of course it does, in a game where having 1 person in a group survive is vastly better than having the full group die.

As I've stated, over and over again, having 1 person get away and lay down a forward camp is definitely, 100%, more advantageous than that one person maybe landing one additional killing blow before dying.

Retreat is a VALID TACTIC, and often the right tactic. To say that retreating is never a good strategy is to completely fail to understand warfare. Your definition of "power" is too narrow.

-Travail.

I concur.

Obscure

No

Travail wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

@Still_Mind
Think your confusing what this so called "FOO" strategy is. Using Bolt escape doesn't win any fights, and most definitely is not "First Order Optimal" which IMO is a unnecessarily complicated term, the common English word for that is "Easy" or the expression "User Friendly". The context is the easy strategy gives a player high power for low skill... Bolt doesn't do that at all. I've literally encountered 1 Sorc who used Bolt during a fight and the guy was incredibly skilled in timing the stun and being vigilant about staying just out of melee yet making it tough to target him at range. Using Bolt to run from a fight is not in any way winning any fights, using it to win fights takes a very skilled player. This dumb little "FOO" strategy term doesn't apply to running away.

Of course it does, in a game where having 1 person in a group survive is vastly better than having the full group die.

As I've stated, over and over again, having 1 person get away and lay down a forward camp is definitely, 100%, more advantageous than that one person maybe landing one additional killing blow before dying.

Retreat is a VALID TACTIC, and often the right tactic. To say that retreating is never a good strategy is to completely fail to understand warfare. Your definition of "power" is too narrow.

-Travail.

Your literally describing a fight a group just LOST. The Sorc is now running away with Bolt and paying 7500 AP to plant a camp because they lost. The winners aren't dead and waiting to respawn, they're waving bye and saying better luck next time. If it was a "FOO" strategy you'd be describing a scenario that this losing team would have won. Maybe next time they'll bring DK spamming Dark Talons and Standards, because he actually has a "FOO" strategy.

Again, no one is dying to Bolt. Handy after you've already lost to avoid dying, but also as I mentioned I can chase them down because I've built for speed. I don't always win the race but I tend to be satisfied enough with having already won the fight.