Is Zenimax downgrading the game for the sake of immersion?

Neizir

Name plates aren't the only feature missing; there's the lack of a multiple quest tracker, mini-map, damage numbers etc.
But where do all of those come from?
Yep. Mods. Sadly now, once again, we have another case of Zenimax/Bethesda relying on the modding community to fix it all. These things should be in the game from the very start. The fact that these mods exist, show that the API can definitely support it, but Zenimax chooses not to support it officially.
Because why?
"Immersion".

Xithian

@Neizir‌

All of the things you mention are for meta-gaming, or min/maxing depending on terminology. Like I said earlier, ESO is about playing the game instead of the meta-game. If you want to meta-game then yeah, you're on your own. Use mods.

Damage numbers are a convenience and nothing more. You can easily tell how effective your attacks are through use. It doesn't take long to get a feel for them.

I'm not sure why everyone needs a minimap to find the bathroom these days either. The compass works just fine. Well, unless you're wanting to find a way to put harvesting nodes or player icons on the map to have more raw info... (see 'meta-game' comment)

I have had zero problem following my quests. If you're anywhere near another objective simply facing it will tell you which it is on your compass. You can also just hit M and click the closest objective if you like. I've never felt slowed down by not having 5+ quests displayed at a time.

Shimond

Neizir wrote: »

Name plates aren't the only feature missing; there's the lack of a multiple quest tracker, mini-map, damage numbers etc.
But where do all of those come from?
Yep. Mods. Sadly now, once again, we have another case of Zenimax/Bethesda relying on the modding community to fix it all. These things should be in the game from the very start. The fact that these mods exist, show that the API can definitely support it, but Zenimax chooses not to support it officially.
Because why?
"Immersion".

It is difficult to 'fix' that which isn't 'broken'

They merely felt such things are not critical to the core game experience, and indeed: they are not.

Eris

I have been able to play the game just fine without mods. There is one mod that I do run and that is only so I can see what I pick up when I auto-loot.

People who need mini-maps and quest trackers are a clear example of people with Elf Problems. Yeah, I said it, if you need a mini-map or quest tracker you're probably an elf. We in the Covenant don't need those sort of things to be awesome. We find some high ground, climb up to it, and look around, that's all the map we need. That is why the Covenant is going to win this... just sayin...

I just get so upset when Elves think that they are so entitled, they think that they should get everything they want just because they have pointy ears. If they don't get what they want they whine and cry because they are Elves, but really they just have round ear envy. Just because they've been around forever doesn't mean we need to keep them around, right?

Oh, wait, I'm sorry what were we talking about again? Oh yah, another UI thread to add to the hundred other ones. Sorry, didn't mean to go off on the elves either, they are just so ... elven... I can't help myself.

Kristov

Neizir wrote: »

You cannot have immersion in a multiplayer environment...

Sure they can. They do.

You don't like it. That's okay, there are other games.

Not everyone wants to play the same game. Diversity is okay.

7788b14_ESO

Kristov wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

You cannot have immersion in a multiplayer environment...

Sure they can. They do.

You don't like it. That's okay, there are other games.

Not everyone wants to play the same game. Diversity is okay.

Immersion is a state of mind. What game does everyone agree is immersive? There will always be some who say it's not.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

Listen up lol

Before WoW a lot of features were absent or minimal,

Now this game comes with some changes to the genre and immersion is one of them.

If all you want it 3rd gen raid by numbers then there are games out there for you.

This is different and we do not even know HOW different yet,

I do not need the clutter of Unit Frames and overblown nameplates anymore.

Embrace the change or <<<<<<< wow and rift and eq2 are that way. Backwards.

mutharex

lichmeister wrote: »

i would also like to see nameplates. it's not a game breaker for me or anything but with so many players moving around constantly in can be tricky sometimes to target someone long enough to catch their name or send a tell/invite/whatever.

i know a lot of players in the last 15 or so years of online gaming who prefer to toggle them off in all those traditional MMORPGs as well. different strokes, i guess!

i would have to agree with @Sarenia when she said:

If they try to please everybody they'll just turn it into another cliche MMO. They chose a firm art and environment direction for the game, and thus far have stuck to their goals, despite some pressure for stapled on MMO features.

one of the biggest attractions to this game (for myself) was just this! after 15 years of eq-style, mmo gameplay this was going to be something truly different. I don't know about y'all but i am tired of the same old thing! For now i am glad ZOS stuck to their vision!

...and btw i am running tons of addons so i can get some of those sweet immersion-wreckin features! mini-map, multi-quest tracker,Guild Store Search, junkyard, inept looter... i keep looking for one to toggle name tags on but i guess that API stuff would explain the absence! as soon as i post this i am off in search of the bank stuffer @mutharex mentioned (ty for mentioning it!)

I use this @lichmeister‌

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info210-BankStuffer.html

Ragnar_Lodbrok

I think many more people are happy with how it is nameplate wise then are unhappy.

Elvent

They could have had these optional "OPTIONAL" features already in the game off by default. Such as player names, player chat bubbles. I like these features in MMOs I play, not having them takes a bit of the fun away. These are really standard expected features.

I guess they like the fact that everybody out in the world looks like random NPCs running around, I guess to please the single player experience. Not having these features ruins my immersion and makes this feel too much like a single player game which is bad for an MMO if they want to last with a P2P model, if they plan on going F2P then sure, keep the game barebones stripped down, less optional/toggle able features the better, right?

Tarwin

I do wonder how we even survived with Everquest. Although there were nameplates, that was about it. no ?'s or !'s directions to quests and hand holding like pretty much every game is now. I also know I couldn't go back to it either. Kind of like TV's before the remotes were invented

Getorix

They need to add nameplates first and fast. I cant believe they released an mmo with no nameplates.

nerevarine1138

Getorix wrote: »

They need to add nameplates first and fast. I cant believe they released an mmo with no nameplates.

I can't believe it's not butter!

But no. I can actually believe it's not butter. What I can't believe is that people have become so conditioned to having floating letters and numbers on their screen that they think it's literally an indispensable feature of any MMO.

mutharex

Getorix wrote: »

They need to add nameplates first and fast. I cant believe they released an mmo with no nameplates.

Not all MMOs are or have to be the same

Valco

It's ok OP you do not need to be scared of the IMMERSION!

Krakenheim

Well to put it simply.

This is Elder Scrolls online, and it is a PAYING MMO in a universe of FtP ones, is not even a very good MMO most things are honestly implemented in an amateurish way (the public instance bot problem is a very good exemple).

I this was not called Elder Scroll and played in the same universe the servers would have been empty.

So yes Immersion is the ONLY reason this game can ever be successful.

And the only thing that need to change is to have less public and more personal instances.

But dont worry most of this "pro" gamers that want to level, gear up and be the best pvpers arround will leave when its subscription time.

nerevarine1138

Krakenheim wrote: »

But dont worry most of this "pro" gamers that want to level, gear up and be the best pvpers arround will leave when its subscription time.

And I thank Stendarr for that every day.

Chiren

I think Zenimax is sticking to its guns.

And the minimalistic but still useful UI does help a lot with the immersion for me.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Krakenheim wrote: »

Well to put it simply.

This is Elder Scrolls online, and it is a PAYING MMO in a universe of FtP ones, is not even a very good MMO most things are honestly implemented in an amateurish way (the public instance bot problem is a very good exemple).

I this was not called Elder Scroll and played in the same universe the servers would have been empty.

So yes Immersion is the ONLY reason this game can ever be successful.

And the only thing that need to change is to have less public and more personal instances.

But dont worry most of this "pro" gamers that want to level, gear up and be the best pvpers arround will leave when its subscription time.

There are pro gamers? How much do they make an hour? Or is it salary? What are there defined benefits (like retirement and medical)?

Requiemslove

I think Zenimax should stick to their guns on the subject of content. Yes it can be sort of frustrating, not having nameplates, but what it DOES do, is make you look at the environment more. If you WANT to know where the merchant is, in a area hub, look at the ruddy banners. The one thing I do want to see is that Zenimax adopt a specific add-on that greatly enhances the range that you can interact with other players. The feature I am talking about is a report add on that lets you see the name of any player you target so long as you can see them, as it is right now, to interact with other players you have to be 5 meters or less away if you don't have that add-on on, and THEN you have to press and hold f, which is bonkers and completely unworkable. What I suggest, is they take this specific add-on, and incorporate a version of it that is NOT for bot reporting, but so that you can see who another player is, and send them a message, or a party invite or whatever, via a list of options that comes up after you hit enter, as in if you wanted to say something in the chat channels, or look at a linked piece of gear in said channel. Then, since the mouse look will be deactivated, no other names will come up if they pass you. This is a way to keep nameplates gone, but also give the community more functionality, and will hopefully increase in-game socialism. After all, this is supposed to be a MMO...so lets actually make it so, and not the route many MMOs tend to go down, of being Massivly multiplayer in scope, but actually more about gear and stats and being "best" than experiencing all the game has to offer, in ALL aspects.

Nox_Aeterna

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Krakenheim wrote: »

Well to put it simply.

This is Elder Scrolls online, and it is a PAYING MMO in a universe of FtP ones, is not even a very good MMO most things are honestly implemented in an amateurish way (the public instance bot problem is a very good exemple).

I this was not called Elder Scroll and played in the same universe the servers would have been empty.

So yes Immersion is the ONLY reason this game can ever be successful.

And the only thing that need to change is to have less public and more personal instances.

But dont worry most of this "pro" gamers that want to level, gear up and be the best pvpers arround will leave when its subscription time.

There are pro gamers? How much do they make an hour? Or is it salary? What are there defined benefits (like retirement and medical)?

You mean in general or in this game?

Because there are MANY pro gamers in the world right now , mostly in esports games like dota2, LoL ...

Attorneyatlawl

Carde wrote: »

I don't know @Attorneyatlawl what do you think on this topic?

Short answer is: Yes, kind of. Its sad but gutting the MMO is the only way the TES can survive apparently.

I don't know @Carde, maybe they aren't even gutting it for the sake of immersion but some weird, probably-misguided vision of "immersion" which is a nebulous term that means different things to different people, in the process pulling out all of the user interface and forcing people to download a million addons and keep em updated instead for anyone but the few who don't want any features in their UI? That sure is immersive.

I went into Craglorn today on one of the more difficult 4-man group delves. Solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL1g9_2Oig

Wait, no it's not, it just annoys me to have to go to 3rdparty sites to get the experience I want with TESO. And I still can't get nameplates .

KanedaSyndrome

Bring us chat bubbles.. I don't care about name plates at the moment tbh.

Melian

I get it, you don't care about immersion. That doesn't make the concept inherently laughable, evil, or meaningless (maybe nerdy. Remember when gamers used to be nerds? Some of us still are).There are plenty of other games out there whose devs seem to share your philosophy that "MMORPG" does not need any "RPG", but there is this one game for those of us who feel differently. Stop trying to *** on something simply because it isn't designed for people like you.

Attorneyatlawl

Melian wrote: »

I get it, you don't care about immersion. That doesn't make the concept inherently laughable, evil, or meaningless (maybe nerdy. Remember when gamers used to be nerds? Some of us still are).There are plenty of other games out there whose devs seem to share your philosophy that "MMORPG" does not need any "RPG", but there is this one game for those of us who feel differently. Stop trying to *** on something simply because it isn't designed for people like you.

No, I'm saying that having the OPTIONS for something based on OPINION would be a good thing. For me I don't find it immersive to stare at my hands to watch a 3-pixel buff effect, or have to hover over everyone in a crowd to find my buddy to trade with. I like story, I hate tedium and pointless artificial barriers.

And the game is actually quite well designed for people like me, except for a lackluster UI that has no base features available as OPTIONS for people to use, instead requiring an INCREDIBLY IMMERSIVE minigame of going to esoui daily or twice a day to keep updated! Great idea.

You tell me to stop ****ing on people who like something different than you do? How about you do the same for us? I hadn't addressed anything about your likes or dislikes, I simply said what I would like as OPTIONS available in the game so people who do like 'em can use em, and people who don't can leave them disabled. Everyone wins, no whining.

One last time: The UI is not the gameplay. The UI is not the game design. It is the keyboard to your computer. I.E. it is a gateway to see and interact with the game, it is not the game itself anymore than the keyboard is your computer . I wish people would understand said concept but the "roleplay" "immersion" (which is opinionated anyway) crowd seems to rant any time someone mentions the amazing new idea of OPTIONS which have been around since ancient primeval times where people chose whether to eat bison or veal.

Attorneyatlawl

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

Bring us chat bubbles.. I don't care about name plates at the moment tbh.

I don't care about chat bubbles. Why can't we both just have our options and I can disable chat bubbles, you can enable em, and vice versa for nameplates?

Alurria

This again....pleeeaassseee. Just stop dredging up these topics. The ui is fine, just because you need to have your hand held by clutter on your screen, or a floating nameplate doesn't mean we all do. Hey you wanted mods use them.

Attorneyatlawl

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

This again....pleeeaassseee. Just stop dredging up these topics. The ui is fine, just because you need to have your hand held by clutter on your screen, or a floating nameplate doesn't mean we all do. Hey you wanted mods use them.

No, I wanted the options so I didn't have to spend 30 minutes downloading 20 new addon updates every day I login . And I'm sorry but having chat bubbles, a minimap, or a nameplate doesn't hold your hand, it makes up for the inherent deficiencies of an online computer game vs. real life where you can see people's faces and recognize them, their voice, and other cues you get in real life but not in a game . Again, your concept of "handholding" "clutter" and "immersion" is 100% opinion-based. Proof? Not everyone agrees on what is immersive. Thus, it's an opinion.

Alurria

You have a choice...it's called a mod. Have at it....

RaZaddha