Is Zenimax downgrading the game for the sake of immersion?

Neizir

Hey guys, something I've wanted to talk about for a while.
A lot of the negative reviews and articles I've seen so far, is that they're about things like "500,000 Chosen Ones" or about a large handful of players doing the same objective as you, completely ruining immersion. I strongly agree with this to an extent, because ALOT of staple features for an MMO is missing, such as name plates.
But why are those staple MMO features missing?
Immersion meets a multiplayer environment.
Zenimax, you must understand:

You cannot have immersion in a multiplayer environment.

Sorry, but you just can't. I know immersion is not a bad thing, but when it comes to an MMO, having a heavy focus on immersion draws you to strip out features that are actually beneficial to the game, like the features mentioned above.

I say this as someone that was an RPer on WoW, always played on RP servers, been in many RP guilds, and I have been a bit part in many of their intricate plot lines. I have always supported and appreciated what RPers bring to the backdrop of our games, I have always picked appropriate thematic names, and I have avoided disrupting RP events. I think the idea of a RP interested phasing to be an amazing idea and hope it comes to life sooner than later and will likely hang out in them. I really do appreciate that this game is very RP/immersion friendly.

But yet I want to punch immersion in the face. I am sick of immersion being used as the default explanation of every missing/removed feature, regardless if it has a meaningful impact upon immersion or not. It has become excessive and ZOS has ignored all obvious compromises on these issues, it has made no attempt to find the middle ground. It has been a scorched earth approach, all in the name of immersion.

While there are many folks that will think is a good thing, and I appreciate that the crowds like the role-playing community, has gotten the shaft in more than a couple games, but I think the uncompromising nature of the ZOS approach has a very negative side. I see a increasingly fractured and hostile community, these forums are a great example. Worse I see the lasting legacy of ESO in the MMO genre being a hostile division between the RP and non-RP community in many games to come. ESO is giving credibility to those folks who run around with a previously unexplained hatred of all things RP and I do not like it.
Ultimately, and rather ironically, I think that immersion is the bane of ESO.

mutharex

Weird, works wonders for me and my friends. So, YES!YOU!CAN!

Same way I find WoW style MMOs less than rubbish, I suppose people who like them will find this rubbish? So? Should we all play the same game, eat the same food and wear the same clothes too?

Sarenia

Neizir wrote: »

[...]staple MMO features missing or in abundance?
Immersion meets a multiplayer environment.
[...]

Just an example of "can't please everybody" I'm afraid.

Not meaning to be snide, but those two things you take issue with (which essentially sum up your post), are very attractive to many other people -- lack of "staple" features stapled on, and immersion meets multiplayer.

If they try to please everybody they'll just turn it into another cliche MMO. They chose a firm art and environment direction for the game, and thus far have stuck to their goals, despite some pressure for stapled on MMO features.

Shimond

That's a lot of text to say you want nameplates.

Grayphilosophy

Just because WoW did something, doesn't mean it has to be the standard of every future game of the same genre. There should be no such thing as a "staple MMO feature" in the first place.. An MMO is just any game at all that's capable of supporting massive amounts of players in a multiplayer game. Nothing else. Have the option for nameplates if you wish, fine. But don't go claiming that a game that doesn't have a socially convenient user interface is a bad game overall because of it.

Altheina

I just don't get what's the fuss of not having nameplates in TESO. Many mmos out there have nameplates yes, but that doesn't mean that it's a must thing to have. In addition, there's already an add-on that allows you to toggle for nameplates if you want in this game so go get it...

mutharex

Yeah, nameplates, minimap and extra combat info, all of those things are available as addon:

http://www.esoui.com/addons.php

GaBacon

easy way around this is to add an option for nameplates ON/OFF. I would like to see name sometimes and not sometimes. But i am ok with it the way it is but i would not mind the option.

mutharex

GaBacon wrote: »

easy way around this is to add an option for nameplates ON/OFF. I would like to see name sometimes and not sometimes. But i am ok with it the way it is but i would not mind the option.

The core game should stick to the original 'vision', addosn allow people to add those things. Why not an option? Because once you start to add an option for name plates, then it will be time for mini map, for extra hotbars etc etc

Addons are external to the game

GaBacon

oh, then i wouldnt mind finding an addon for the nameplates, i dont mind using addons. As far as the mini map thing, i actualy prefer not having one. Less clutter on my screen :P.

Alurria

Why is it so difficult to use your mouse to scroll over someone to see their name? Nameplates are not a staple they are added aesthetic. I really don't want to see xxxmyarsexxx running around and if I happen to scroll over a person with that name I know to ignore them as they have no imagination.

Next being immersed in the environment is nothing new and that is the whole basis for these games. From the time of pen, paper and dice D&D games. The very beginnings of all fantasy games stems from being immersed in a different world. Trying to put a spin on it makes you look like a tool grasping at straws to push a feature into a game that is working just fine without it.

This is not WoW kthxbah

mutharex

GaBacon wrote: »

oh, then i wouldnt mind finding an addon for the nameplates, i dont mind using addons. As far as the mini map thing, i actualy prefer not having one. Less clutter on my screen :P.

Only addosn I use are:
- chat spam filter (awesome)
- bank stuffer (puts in bank stuff from my bag if there is already one stack in bank)
- an addon that sells junk

The same site has a beta for an addon manager:
http://minion.mmoui.com/

quite good

metalgold

In this games defense, it is still very, very new. I beta'ed WoW and CBT, Supertested, moderated WoT, both of those games had and still have issues with content (WoW lost me with the Panda Bears...c'mon) and WoT is run by angry Russians...but they both have millions of players that enjoy them. I remember the forums on WoT during CBT "this game is going to get old playing one 15 minute match after another and no-one will stick with it"...30 million + registered users later the concept has proven itself. I look for the uniqueness in a game, not having "cookie cutter" classes is one thing I love about ESO. If I play a Priest, I DPS or Healz....If you don't use this build and have this gear, your a n00b...I see what your saying with regards to story, 500,000,000 chosen ones is a little unimaginative but look at some of the cool stuff we can do with this game also...give it a year, if it's still struggling, i'll be a bit more of a skeptic I guess....

Necrodiety

It's an MMO and the open world will be open. I guess they could appease a few by allowing a private/public option when entering dungeons, but aside from the wait for a mob to respawn, it's kinda helpful.

Zazar

Altheina wrote: »

In addition, there's already an add-on that allows you to toggle for nameplates if you want in this game so go get it...

Actually, there are API restrictions that unallow to display nameplates. Don't say *** when you've no clue of the situation .

mutharex

Zazar wrote: »

Altheina wrote: »

In addition, there's already an add-on that allows you to toggle for nameplates if you want in this game so go get it...

Actually, there are API restrictions that unallow to display nameplates. Don't say *** when you've no clue of the situation .

I thought the API restricted only the info you can get from enemies (stamina, magicka, what they are casting etc) not display of name plates.

Xithian

There are probably more MMOs that have you and every other player all paradoxically the sole savior of the land than not. Why people chose to make such a big deal about that in ESO and not those other games I dunno.

As to nameplates and immersion... Stop trying to make this the same as every other game. If I wanted to be playing other MMOs I wouldn't be playing ESO. I love the minimal UI. Hell, sometimes I just run around with the UI completely disabled. You don't need exact numbers and damage calculations for everything. Even playing veteran levels.

The entire point of the "immersion" argument for ESO has nothing to do with roleplay. It's about getting you to play the game instead of playing the meta-game, and it's what ESO does best. If you take that away you'll just have another fairly generic MMO.

Phadin

I like it the way it is. Having names floating above everyone, minimap, and a bunch of other crap on the screen just gets annoying to someone like me. The only add-on I've got is one that displays items I collect on the side of the screen so I don't have to keep looking in my inventory every time I loot something. I don't mind the lack of map or nameplate though. It's lead to some interesting encounters... mistaking NPCs as other players, or other players as NPCs. I consider that a good thing. The lack of a minimap I don't mind either. We have a compass, and if you need to look at your map, you actually pull out and look at a map.

But then again, I'm not a big fan of MMOs. This is one of very very few that has ever attracted my attention... or my money. Maybe there is a market for this out there after all.... just not the market that the rest of MMOs cater to.

mutharex

@Xithian‌ before the NDA drop a lot of haters spent their whole day saying how this was a crappy wow clone with a TES skin. After the NDA drop, those voices were silenced and they been waiting since then an occasion to jump on another reason to hate TESO

Why? Ah don't know and don't wanna know... could be dangerous...

Altheina

Zazar wrote: »

Altheina wrote: »

In addition, there's already an add-on that allows you to toggle for nameplates if you want in this game so go get it...

Actually, there are API restrictions that unallow to display nameplates. Don't say *** when you've no clue of the situation .

Oh that's too bad then...I am pretty sure there will be one some day

reggielee

No. the game is doing a balancing act betw the two, and i think they are doing it great. sure.. some dungeons are full of other players but who cares? its crammed in the early zones but as you branch out it gets less crowded. I like to see other people doing the same thing im doing, especially in difficult dungeons its impromptu grouping. works great

I dont want alot of crap on my UI either. It amazes me that people are so ingrained in old style gaming that they cant function without alot of useless/fussy info on their screen. they use addons to cheat locations for nodes/skyshards instead of just exploring and using hints provided. they use addons to show health/exp when you can just enable health bars in setup and exp can be seen with a single keyboard press. just alot of fussy stuff that is already addressed in game. if that rocks your boat and you just cant play without it then go for it, add on away and watch your lag go crazy.

the game is fine as it is

nerevarine1138

I love that before the game came out, players wanted something new.

Then when ZO introduces a new, minimalistic UI that actually has you looking at the game instead of the flashy buttons on your screen, people raise hell.

icengr_ESO

yes, for the love of all that is holy stop creating "nameplates is vital" posts. believe it or not, you can see someones name. you just have to actually take the time to look. and I find that no nameplates is great for immersion. as far as I know I am the only chosen one.

Eris

Another way to look at it is that Zenimax is streamlining the MMO experience... they are not taking away from you, they are helping you to realize that you're addicted to WoW-Crack and now you're in rehab.

Nameplates create lag. Nameplates make your video card work harder and generates more heat.

Xithian

There's also the fact that PvP without nameplates is very different than with it. It's a lot harder to call out a single target. Taking out healers and such is more involved than just clicking a name (or even using a macro...yes people do that in games) to single out that person for repeated killing.

Basically the arguments for nameplates are: I want to see names because...reasons.

Arguments against nameplates are many, and greatly affect gameplay and overall experience.

drkeys143

Oh God not WoW again

lichmeister

i would also like to see nameplates. it's not a game breaker for me or anything but with so many players moving around constantly in can be tricky sometimes to target someone long enough to catch their name or send a tell/invite/whatever.

i know a lot of players in the last 15 or so years of online gaming who prefer to toggle them off in all those traditional MMORPGs as well. different strokes, i guess!

i would have to agree with @Sarenia when she said:

If they try to please everybody they'll just turn it into another cliche MMO. They chose a firm art and environment direction for the game, and thus far have stuck to their goals, despite some pressure for stapled on MMO features.

one of the biggest attractions to this game (for myself) was just this! after 15 years of eq-style, mmo gameplay this was going to be something truly different. I don't know about y'all but i am tired of the same old thing! For now i am glad ZOS stuck to their vision!

...and btw i am running tons of addons so i can get some of those sweet immersion-wreckin features! mini-map, multi-quest tracker,Guild Store Search, junkyard, inept looter... i keep looking for one to toggle name tags on but i guess that API stuff would explain the absence! as soon as i post this i am off in search of the bank stuffer @mutharex mentioned (ty for mentioning it!)

Xithian

The API limitation in question is that you can only modify the actual UI. Things like party indicators over people's heads are actually objects in the game world, not on the UI. That's why you can't have a mod for different icons for party leaders vs other party members.

Shimond

Xithian wrote: »

The API limitation in question is that you can only modify the actual UI. Things like party indicators over people's heads are actually objects in the game world, not on the UI. That's why you can't have a mod for different icons for party leaders vs other party members.

Right, and why it's unlikely for it to be something that would arrive in the form of an add-on. If it were to arrive at all, it'd be something they purposely code in (because they'd have to anyway for it to be an add-on).

michaeljones161b16_ESO

"Is Zenimax downgrading the game for sake of immersion?"

No. IMHO, Zenimax is upgrading the game for sake of immersion.

Carde

I don't know @Attorneyatlawl what do you think on this topic?

Short answer is: Yes, kind of. Its sad but gutting the MMO is the only way the TES can survive apparently.