Change to the patch notes (Boss drops)

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

"You now need to wait several minutes after looting a delve or overworld boss before you are eligible to receive loot from these types of bosses again."

Like 5 minutes? Sometimes the "bosses" spawn in minutes of the last kill.

@ZOS_JESSICAFOLSOM Do you think it would be possible for more clarification on this? Thanks!

Mace · April 2014

I'm also curious about the changes made in this regard.

crush83 · April 2014

This isn't the answer. Bots will still get loot once every several minutes. It's still worth them setting up camp and farming the boss.

We need Diminishing Returns. (I'm sick of preaching this, honestly)

10 minute cooldown window. If you kill the boss within that 10 minute window it gets refreshed. This is literally the most important part of why this will effectively nullify bots camping bosses. If they camp, they will never get loot again.

The more kills you get within your cooldown window, the less likely you are to get loot until eventually you get none. I'll let ZOS determine the logarithmic curve.

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Rhoric · April 2014

There was supposed to be diminishing returns on boss drops. Think it broke and that is why you have these bots and players camping the bosses

crush83 · April 2014

Nah. They didn't implement diminishing returns. They just implemented a non-refreshable cooldown timer.

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

Rhoric wrote: »

There was supposed to be diminishing returns on boss drops. Think it broke and that is why you have these bots and players camping the bosses

That is always the best when the fixes break.

Mace · April 2014

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

crush83 · April 2014

Mace wrote: »

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Sure. And if they did that, then there would be plenty of chances in between where other players could get loot, unhindered by bots.

Mace wrote: »

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

What happens if your first time through, you get a crappy roll? What happens if you don't want to speed level through all the content, and want to do that particular dungeon again another time?

HandofBane · April 2014

Hopefully this will help resolve the bot issue to where folks can get their kills in on the bosses by actually landing a hit before it dies. Now we just need to deal with the whiners complaining about people who are willing to wait out the timer to farm for specific drops without using a bot to do the work for them.

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

Mace wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

I think this would be the best idea. The botters will just keep killing at higher and higher delays until they figure out a more efficient way to make gold.

crush83 · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Mace wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

I think this would be the best idea. The botters will just keep killing at higher and higher delays until they figure out a more efficient way to make gold.

Players can kill the boss in between bot kills...and waiting for x minutes would need x to be a point in time that is completely unprofitable for a bot.

For example, 30 minutes? 60 minutes? 120 minutes?

HandofBane · April 2014

If this delay is in the 5-10 minute range, the botters will just move on to train-farming trash mobs in dungeons/delves, or places with large numbers of mobs that respawn fairly quickly. Which means bosses should free up everywhere over the next few days, as they will no longer be worth the time for such a low return. Remember, most bots are being used by gold farmers/sellers, and having a bot sit idle because whatever it was working on will not drop anything means they are losing money-per-hour.

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

crush83 wrote: »

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Mace wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

I think this would be the best idea. The botters will just keep killing at higher and higher delays until they figure out a more efficient way to make gold.

Players can kill the boss in between bot kills...and waiting for x minutes would need x to be a point in time that is completely unprofitable for a bot.

For example, 30 minutes? 60 minutes? 120 minutes?

I never said that they couldn't. I am just saying that bots will kill them until it becomes beneficial for them. Also they could just have bots alternate in killing. Then every other kill would go to the bots still.

Saerydoth · April 2014

Did this change go in with the patch on Monday and it was just left out of the patch notes? Or was it added in the hotfix today?

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

Did this change go in with the patch on Monday and it was just left out of the patch notes? Or was it added in the hotfix today?

Patch 1.0.5, it was just updated about 10 minutes ago I think,

crush83 · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

I never said that they couldn't. I am just saying that bots will kill them until it becomes beneficial for them. Also they could just have bots alternate in killing. Then every other kill would go to the bots still.

Then you need to go back and reread my first post. If they keep killing them before the waiting period is over, then it will never become beneficial for them.

Alternating bots means only a fraction of bots attacking the boss at a time.

So, unless the population grows to n times what it is now at each boss, where n is the number of spawns that occur within a refresh window interval, then this won't be an issue.

HandofBane · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Mace wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

I think this would be the best idea. The botters will just keep killing at higher and higher delays until they figure out a more efficient way to make gold.

Players can kill the boss in between bot kills...and waiting for x minutes would need x to be a point in time that is completely unprofitable for a bot.

For example, 30 minutes? 60 minutes? 120 minutes?

I never said that they couldn't. I am just saying that bots will kill them until it becomes beneficial for them. Also they could just have bots alternate in killing. Then every other kill would go to the bots still.

You are looking at it from a "the boss is the most profitable thing to kill" viewpoint, rather than a "what is more profitable per time spent to kill" perspective. Any bot sitting idle, even if just to help other bots get kill credit on something, is wasting time for no profit from the point of view of the bot-farmers.

Saerydoth · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Did this change go in with the patch on Monday and it was just left out of the patch notes? Or was it added in the hotfix today?

Patch 1.0.5, it was just updated about 10 minutes ago I think,

Right, I know it was added to the 1.0.5 patch notes a few minutes ago. But did the actual change go live yesterday morning, or this morning with the hotfix? Cause if it went in yesterday...there are still people complaining about bots today. Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

HandofBane wrote: »

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Mace wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Couldn't bots just be set up to kill the boss once every "X" minutes for full loot?

Why not limit loot and exp to once per entry in the dungeons?

I think this would be the best idea. The botters will just keep killing at higher and higher delays until they figure out a more efficient way to make gold.

Players can kill the boss in between bot kills...and waiting for x minutes would need x to be a point in time that is completely unprofitable for a bot.

For example, 30 minutes? 60 minutes? 120 minutes?

I never said that they couldn't. I am just saying that bots will kill them until it becomes beneficial for them. Also they could just have bots alternate in killing. Then every other kill would go to the bots still.

You are looking at it from a "the boss is the most profitable thing to kill" viewpoint, rather than a "what is more profitable per time spent to kill" perspective. Any bot sitting idle, even if just to help other bots get kill credit on something, is wasting time for no profit from the point of view of the bot-farmers.

No, I am looking at it from the perspective that it is more beneficial to kill the bosses than other things so far. They won't keep killing the bosses if they can kill other things for more bang per buck.

crush83 · April 2014

Saerydoth wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

I suspect this will happen once a meaningful change does take place. It will take the botters a day or so to realize that they aren't getting jack squat anymore for loot, then they will adjust their strategy. They will likely continue farming the bosses until they can adjust their strategy though.

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

crush83 wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

I suspect this will happen once a meaningful change does take place. It will take the botters a day or so to realize that they aren't getting jack squat anymore for loot, then they will adjust their strategy. They will likely continue farming the bosses until they can adjust their strategy though.

They probably have some full time person who monitors these things.

crush83 · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

I suspect this will happen once a meaningful change does take place. It will take the botters a day or so to realize that they aren't getting jack squat anymore for loot, then they will adjust their strategy. They will likely continue farming the bosses until they can adjust their strategy though.

They probably have some full time person who monitors these things.

I'm sure they have some central repository of information and analytics software that is running on it. They will see that their "Gold/Second" is dropping quickly, and they will find out the reason. Then it will take a bit of time to adjust the strategy, and pushing the update to the bots. In the mean time, they don't want to miss out on gold altogether, so they will continue farming as they do now since it will at least make them a little bit of gold.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · April 2014

It must have been yesterdays patch because last night I didnt see one spammer, and only a couple of bots

deathly809_ESO · April 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

It must have been yesterdays patch because last night I didnt see one spammer, and only a couple of bots

Yeah, they changed the patch notes about 30 minutes ago.

HandofBane · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

I suspect this will happen once a meaningful change does take place. It will take the botters a day or so to realize that they aren't getting jack squat anymore for loot, then they will adjust their strategy. They will likely continue farming the bosses until they can adjust their strategy though.

They probably have some full time person who monitors these things.

They have someone who checks in every so often who either mails the loot or teleports out then back in after selling/deconstructing. Anything looted worth selling in person/via guild store would be mailed off, the rest junked out. You can see it if you sit and watch a group of them for about 20-30 minutes, occasionally one will port out or the "group leader" will run around a bit and reposition the group of bots. Some groups may be more fully automated with checkins every hour or two, but many seem to have at least one person making sure they are working/profitable.

Kythia · April 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

It must have been yesterdays patch because last night I didnt see one spammer, and only a couple of bots

Only Hightide Hollow is free of bots in Stonefalls. And the boss there takes several minutes to respawn, so its probably more of a bug.

Chirru · April 2014

crush83 wrote: »

This isn't the answer. Bots will still get loot once every several minutes. It's still worth them setting up camp and farming the boss.

We need Diminishing Returns. (I'm sick of preaching this, honestly)

10 minute cooldown window. If you kill the boss within that 10 minute window it gets refreshed. This is literally the most important part of why this will effectively nullify bots camping bosses. If they camp, they will never get loot again.

The more kills you get within your cooldown window, the less likely you are to get loot until eventually you get none. I'll let ZOS determine the logarithmic curve.

If you wait 10 minutes between kills, then your window expires, and you get full loot again.

Adjust the 10 minutes to be inline with the content.

Done. End of story. Why is this still not implemented?

Spot on. I could not agree more.

crush83 · April 2014

The scene used to work a lot like a telemarketer hive. You'd have a zone manager who oversaw 30-40 telemarketers all in cubicles. Each telemarketer was in charge of making x calls/sales. They'd get bonuses for exceeding their target.

Likewise, you'd have 30-40 low-wage workers in cubicles in charge of farming x amount of gold per day. However they wanted to farm it did not matter, as long as they reached their goal.

I suspect now, it is still similar, but instead of playing the game manually, they just manage a group of bots. Less workers means more profit.

Chirru · April 2014

crush83 wrote: »

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

crush83 wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't in the patch notes, the botters just didn't notice that they weren't getting loot anymore, and now that they know they'll move on.

I suspect this will happen once a meaningful change does take place. It will take the botters a day or so to realize that they aren't getting jack squat anymore for loot, then they will adjust their strategy. They will likely continue farming the bosses until they can adjust their strategy though.

They probably have some full time person who monitors these things.

I'm sure they have some central repository of information and analytics software that is running on it. They will see that their "Gold/Second" is dropping quickly, and they will find out the reason. Then it will take a bit of time to adjust the strategy, and pushing the update to the bots. In the mean time, they don't want to miss out on gold altogether, so they will continue farming as they do now since it will at least make them a little bit of gold.

They have adjusted already. This morning the starting area at Bleakrock was overrun with bots. The harvested the area absolutely clean.

Saerydoth · April 2014

This won't get rid of the bots...but it will keep them from all concentrating in the public dungeons, hopefully making them playable for the rest of us. There will still be bots, but they will probably be spread out doing other things. It will certainly make life a lot more difficult for them.

SirAndy · April 2014

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

"You now need to wait several minutes after looting a delve or overworld boss before you are eligible to receive loot from these types of bosses again."

Like 5 minutes? Sometimes the "bosses" spawn in minutes of the last kill.
@ZOS_JESSICAFOLSOM Do you think it would be possible for more clarification on this? Thanks!

Will make *no* difference to any of the bots what-so-ever.
The only thing this does accomplish is to make us who don't bot even more upset.

The bots will simply farm a boss, teleport to another, teleport to another ... come back to the first one when the time limit has expired. Rinse and repeat.
It won't slow them down ONE BIT.

Yet real players will feel the impact ...