2 Handed needs to be buffed. Entire style is rather terrible atm

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

step 1. fix the base damage on 2handers. heavy attacks are far less than bow ( point blank range) i'll be testing this as soon as the servers come back online
step 2. heavy weapons. bleed from axe doesnt stack with bleed from heavy. armor penetration from blunt either doesnt stack with sharpened/crushing/or does nothing.
step 3. uppercut. at the very least cast time needs to be halved. currently its fun for running around using bears as golf balls. but thats about it.
step 4. executioner. double base damage and start scaling at 50% health.
step 5. momentum. change to toggle. more damage from light/heavy attacks and 2h feats in exchange for reduced stam regen or a stam drain ( same thing differnt method)

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

test setup.
me lvl 38 no points spent in anything other than bow/2hander
all weapons white lvl 38 crafted. no traits
bow skills longshot 2, accuracy 2, ranger2, hawkeye 1
2hander skills, forceful 2, heavy 2, balance2, arcane 1
fighting lvl 41 saber cats in the rift at point blank range
damage for heavy attacks
bow heavy attack damage 205 at point blank, 222 at max distance
dual wield (daggers) 87+70 = 157
dagger+sheild = 144
greatsword = 194
maul = 189
battle axe = 185 + 10 dmg bleed


so other than bows having more damage it looks like its just a skill issue.

after leveling to 39 i moved on to mammoths lvl 42 no stat or skill points spent
plain maul 195
maul with sharpened 195
plain greatsword 200 !!!!!
greatsword with sharpened 200
plain battle axe 191. w/ 9 bleed
battle axe with sharpened 191 w/9 bleed.....
bow 210


something is seriously wrong with this.. looks like sharpened doesnt do a dang thing.

Erock25

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

test setup.
me lvl 38 no points spent in anything other than bow/2hander
all weapons white lvl 38 crafted. no traits
bow skills longshot 2, accuracy 2, ranger2, hawkeye 1
2hander skills, forceful 2, heavy 2, balance2, arcane 1
fighting lvl 41 saber cats in the rift at point blank range
damage for heavy attacks
bow heavy attack damage 205 at point blank, 222 at max distance
dual wield (daggers) 87+70 = 157
dagger+sheild = 144
greatsword = 194
maul = 189

so other than bows having more damage it looks like its just a skill issue.

What? The skill you specced into and leveled up did more damage than the skills you didn't level up. That proves nothing.

Armitas

Falmer wrote: »

You can't simply compare DPS across the weapon types, they do different things.

The damage shield I get off cleave, which can be pretty much spammed means 100 less health damage for a handful of stamina points, of which I always have plenty of.

The uppercut means single targets don't have much of a shot.

Dismissing 2 handed just because it doesn't have a higher damage output is really missing the whole concept behind many of its abilities.

If those two examples are what is holding the two hander back in regards to dps I would gladly trade them.

I cannot find any good reason to use uppercut.
* If there is more than 1 enemy then you will be wide open for power attacks in the cast time.
* A lot of bosses are immune
* I can do just as much damage with a heavy attack
* If there is only 1 enemy I can just hit him from stealth with a heavy attack for 2k and if he's not done finish the animation with executioner.
* It is easily avoided by any player
* It is avoided by flanks
* If I need the knock down then volcanic rune is better in every way.
* It's far less dps than our heavy/light/skill combos.

If our dps is being held back because we have uppercut then we need to get rid of it.

The only thing that really shines is one morph from cleave, though not cleave itself sadly. Carve is great, I can solo group dungeons with that. (Carves sole usefulness comes from the ultimate generation, not the damage). I only used brawler in beta but I could not see the usefulness of the bubble. I save myself far more lost health by doing more damage which brawler just wont do.

If it is as you imply, and the 2handers purpose is to be a utility pool rather than primarily to meet damage requirements then we need the utilities to be worth it. If their intent for the 2hand line is to be, "lower dps but with utility" then I'll reluctantly switch weapon types, but I want to know that that is the case.

But even so I don't believe that this is the case because the dual wield line also has utility.

AOE
* Whirlwind - DW
* Cleave - 2H

Heal
* Blood craze - DW
* Rally - 2H

Damage reduction
* Ember explosion - DW (aoe damage reduction through blind and miss chance)
* Brawler - 2H

Gap Closer
* Hidden blade - DW (ranged attack with a snare)
* Critical charge - 2H

Knockdown
*blinding fury - DW (multiple chances to set off balance, which can be followed by a knockdown - quick)
* Uppercut - 2H (slow)

(* This comparison is made to show that the skills in the 2handed line are not necessarily indicative of it being a utility balanced tree. It is not to suggest or imply that these comparisons are 1 to 1 in power, performance etc. )

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

test setup.
me lvl 38 no points spent in anything other than bow/2hander
all weapons white lvl 38 crafted. no traits
bow skills longshot 2, accuracy 2, ranger2, hawkeye 1
2hander skills, forceful 2, heavy 2, balance2, arcane 1
fighting lvl 41 saber cats in the rift at point blank range
damage for heavy attacks
bow heavy attack damage 205 at point blank, 222 at max distance
dual wield (daggers) 87+70 = 157
dagger+sheild = 144
greatsword = 194
maul = 189

so other than bows having more damage it looks like its just a skill issue.

What? The skill you specced into and leveled up did more damage than the skills you didn't level up. That proves nothing.

i was looking to see if a theory i had was correct. it was not. other than bow doing more damage than 2hander ( at point blank range so the passives dont kick in) 2hander heavy attacks seem to be ok with 5% gains for swords and a slight gain for maul over axe ( not including the bleed) the heavy weapons passive seems to be working correctly.

i still have no idea why a 73 dmg bow hits harder than a 86 damage maul at point blank range.

i still think uppercut needs to be faster
i still think momentum is useless as it is now.
i still think bleeds need to stack

and based on the numbers further down. i think the sharpened trait isnt working.

Armitas

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

and based on the numbers further down. i think the sharpened trait isnt working.

I had the same results when I tested sharpened.

I also wonder about the usefulness of weighted. I am unable to notice any difference in timing with the weighted (attack speed) trait. I wonder if there are any addons with combat logs that include a clock to measure timing.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

further testing with various weapons and skills leads me to believe that armor mitigates at a rate of 1 damage per 20 armor. and that ever mob in the rift has approximately 350ish armor.

meaning 2/2 heavy weapons with a maul will always return 4 extra damage. and sharpened returns less than 1 damage.

meaning at least for pve. get a sword with precise. everything else is less effective

tested on mammoths, giants, trolls, saber cats, zombies, and armored humans. 150 damage with base dagger, 158 with 170 armor debuff proc. 157 with puncture. 162 with both proc and puncture. 1 point spent in shield for puncture. damage only changed when they blocked or i critted. or they got below 20% health ( appears to set the npc's armor to 0 as procs and puncture made no difference after that)


can not verify pvp effectiveness of sharpened as noone seems to want to stand still long enough for me to beat them about the head with various weapons.

killedbyping

I dont find 2H dps weaker then other weapons. It actualy do much more then any other weapon on single target.
Who cares about regular attacks ? Gain some decent stamina regen and spam Charge. For me it is 585 damage each hit for a fair price of stamina.
It can be used within 1 meter range while your regular attacks range is about 2 meters whichs means you can keep regulars and spam charge at the same time.

I would really like to see some AOE buff for 2H.
First of all, why is Whirlwind are DW ability ? It is always been and are 2H ability in any game -.-
Spin around with short duggers ? Pfft, dont make me laugth.

Forcefull passive: Seriously ? Only 1 nearby target ? Could you atleast make bigger range for that passive ?
I mean it is realy have no use other then for Ambush. Range is about 1 meter or less which means it will never proc because mobs never get so close to each other in fight expect when they stay unaware. Even if you try to kite them to make them gather they will instantly split as soon as you stop and try to attack.
Also rank 2 of this passive is broken. It is not dealing 27% of splash damage, instead it have 27% to deal full damage which not triggers that often.
After last patch it becomes completely broken. It is now not dealing any damage at all when procs, only trigger some mechanics like 1.5 stun when ambush or fire damage with Red Mountain set.

Cleave: passives of that ability is generaly fine, but the damage is just an insult.
How in the world weapon ability can make less damage than the light attack of that weapon line ?

2H is meant to deal some decent AOE damage because it suppose to.

NoMoreChillies

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

Axer

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

Being evne if that worked, that skill would still be 100% worthless in all scenarios.. I'd sitll recommend deleting it straight up and starting a good dps skill from scratch.

As ESO has some real nice two handed animations on monsters, some cool 360 cleaves, spins and overhead strikes.. They could easily adapt on to the player animations and give us something worth using unlike that garbage.

It just needs ONE good, fast, strong, spammable dps move. Give it a decent aoe morph and call it a day devs, comon.

It's either that or just insanely and massively buff cleave, removing it dot, doubling its effective range and quadrupling its damage. (And even then, wed only JUST be approaching destro staff dps, not surpassing it)

reagen_lionel

I like uppercut, its a good solo skill. not all that useful in group related stuff (though there are situations where it is)

I would rather keep uppercut and just expand all weapon skills with more additions of skills. (and 2hand really needs it) and rework some passives and just how 2hand works by default.

I would rather have cleave be buffed to be the real only spammable abilitiy. For having any other skill to be spammable by a two hand doesnt really make much sense. You simply cant swing a two handed anything that fast and repeatedly. it kind of goes against the concept of two hand. Spam attacking with a two hand hammer just sounds ridiculous. two hands are slow in concept, but what is really lacking is the "UMPH" of the skills. Uppercut hits hard as a single target ability, and thats what I like.

Reverse Slash hits hard as an execute (but only an execute) but it really should hit just a bit harder which increasing the base damage it should do by a considerable amount (which in turn would increase the damage of its execute threshold)

2hand is the most stamina reliant weapon tree. And it uses up huge chunks of stamina at a time. (where the others uses up tiny portions) which makes sense for the weapon. but that doesnt relate to the damage it actually dishes out. It has some build up for its attacks, it should. But that build up should not be hitting only slightly harder than one hands and bows.

Right now I feel like the 2hand doesnt have any real identity. Some say it is an aoe based tree which isnt true, because dual wield,bow and destruction staff can do the exact same 2hand does. Its a single target based tree, but everything in the game can do single target. When people think of two hand, you would think that 2hands hurt. they hit hard. But if someone was to hit you with a heavy attack of a two hand, and a heavy attack of a one hand or dual wield without even looking at numbers. it would feel the same nearly. 2hands only thing is that it has build up for its attacks but hits slightly harder (and in some cases less) than other weapon skills. It doesnt really have no identity besides "Im holding a big weapon". The fact it can aoe, it can do damage and it has utility should not be in discussion as thats its sole meaning, what it really should be is that you have the choice of turning that tree into that very thing if thats what you want to focus on. Right now you really cant. You want to focus on aoe, place in cleave in its morph form sure, but its not gonna make much difference from just using cleave normally or any other aoe stamina based ability.

Which goes to the post I mentioned about how to improve the tree as a whole. It needs its passives to be reworked so people can spend thier skill points to using 2hands in how they want. (and all weapons skills in my opinion) and how they want to focus on. Which would require reworking passives, adding a couple new abilities and reworking the mechanics of the base weapon. (applying the axe=bleeds and mace = ingore armor by default with passives that increase and scales these effects). 2hand is an expensive stamina resource tree, and the return for this isnt all that great in addition to the above. There isnt enough distinction between the other weapon skill lines and there needs to be. Theres more distinction in the classes than there is for the skill lines and how you build your character, and thats kind of backwards for an elder scrolls game, online or not.

My previous post in how I feel 2hand should be improved.

I think there should be a passive that increases the base damage of 2h weapons that is upgradable. The passive effects to 2hands should all be on them by default. (mace crushes armor, axe bleeds, sword slight crit increase since the damage bonus passive would be in its own passive now and through all 2hand weapons)

The current passive should instead increase these effects greater for the different 2 hand weapons. So if you wish to specialize in a certain weapon you can.
(the current passive should also morph depending on the weapon you use. It would make it more complicated. But it would make the selection of the 2hands more deeper, the same should be done with one handers in my opinion. A person who is used to using a mace should not be able to use a two handed sword with the exact same efficiency if he/she's never held one. Destruction staffs have kind of a similar system to this already just implemented differently)

Cleave needs a significant damage bonus to its initial hit. the bleed needs a faster tick with the damage it has now, or a longer tick with more damage.

Charge is fine to me.

Momentum can stay the same (since it gets an inherent boost from the 2h damage passive when its upgraded)

Uppercut is fine.

The splash damage passive should have a more significant increase in the damage it spreads.

Reverse Slash can stay the same for the same reason as Momentum.

Battle Rush is fine

In addition the secondary effects of the weapons should scale with the level of the player the same way all the existing base damage of weapons do. (and all bleeds for that matter).

With the introduction of the base damage passive addition, it should in turn make all 2 handed abilities stamina requirment increase by a certain % with each addition. So one can have a bit of choice for more damage with more stamina in thier abilities or use abilities without the passive base damage increase skill.

(so in short, 2 hands will take a bit longer to master with the changes, much longer than the one handed weapons (since if you implement the passive for each individual weapon, you can potentially double the training exp for that passive by dual wielding the same weapon) but they will be pretty powerful, stronger than one handed stuff for sure, but slower. But when they swing, it hurts. Like a two hander should..)

steinernein

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

Armitas

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

What are your reasons for this belief? Is this due to group buffs/debuffs or should this be the dps while solo as well?

I am using 3 weapon jewelry pieces, rally, igneous weapons, 7 medium armor pieces with the shadow stone (thief is broken). OC in stamina, almost OC in magic, with a purple crit V10 2 handed sword. My weapon damage is 214ish while rally is ticking.

I am using a heavy/light/skill combo which is the fastest and most efficient combo I know of. It lowers the animation for all 3 hits. I am using 3 skills that I slip into this combo. Searing strike (which I only use to keep up the dot) Flame Lash which I use till half health, and executioner which I use after half health. I'm typically getting ~470 sustained DPS on mammoths. I think I could get this to 500-510 with a few changes that are currently out of my reach but that is the most I can anticipate. I've been trying to squeeze everything I can out of it, I just can't foresee anything that would increase that dps to 700.

steinernein

The only reason I think it is a possibility is because of wrecking blow and how it behave similarly to crystal fragments, but the primary difference is that you're in melee range which means you can take advantage of bash cancelling.

So your damage would look something like this in a raw format 214 light + elemental proc (50?) + 1 sec charge up time/cancel time for Wrecking Blow (615) + bash 200 (?) , other dots and effects you may have up Flames of Oblivion 50? Engulfing Flames 50?. Doable No crits included, but chances are with Molten Armaments you would see a larger increase over igneous. Also, not calculating any extra damage you may get from passives. That'll get you to 600+ depending on your execution.

The reason I think this may be sustainable is due to having a templar in your group throwing out shards, and wearing all medium with Hircine's set bonus stacked twice (once from yourself, once from an ally) - so with GDB up you'll be around 180%~ increase in stamina regen. After 80, you'll be hitting the soft cap so you'll get 90% back - so you'll be getting from regen alone around eh.. let's go with a 100/s with drink buff at the very least.

So, throw on crit chance, weapon power, stamina regen pots, helping hands, and Luminous Shards you should be covered for the most part. And if you're fighting Daedra use Evil Hunter for procs etc.

Axer

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

If the best two handed can manage is 700dps aoe, thats a PRIME reason it's utterly broken and needs to be severely buffed.

Destro staff can manage 3000+ sustained aoe dps. And I've seen up to 5800 burst. 6500+ burst is likely even possible.

Even if you meant single target, 700 is still quite bad. 1k+ is where any decent endgame destro dragonknight should sit, without breaking as sweat in basic gear.

Two handed is so far behind its not even funny.

steinernein

Axer wrote: »

If the best two handed can manage is 700dps aoe, thats a PRIME reason it's utterly broken and needs to be severely buffed.

Destro staff can manage 3000+ sustained aoe dps. And I've seen up to 5800 burst. 6500+ burst is likely even possible.

Even if you meant single target, 700 is still quite bad. 1k+ is where any decent endgame destro dragonknight should sit, without breaking as sweat in basic gear.

Two handed is so far behind its not even funny.

I'd like to see parses and other evidence of a destro knight busting out 1k+ consistently over the duration of two minutes or more; most people with those builds are going anywhere from 700 to 900 which includes using the dragon standard.

In the brief outline above I have not calculated crit rates, other proc rates, and ults like dragon standard nor have I included the damage rates in the execute range. If 600-650 is the base for a 2H without crits, without using pots etc, I am willing to wager that you can reach 900 single target.

As for AoEing, that's not part of the discussion nor am I particularly concerned about it since it's mainly the DK being an outlier.

Napkins

Axer wrote: »

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

If the best two handed can manage is 700dps aoe, thats a PRIME reason it's utterly broken and needs to be severely buffed.

Destro staff can manage 3000+ sustained aoe dps. And I've seen up to 5800 burst. 6500+ burst is likely even possible.

Even if you meant single target, 700 is still quite bad. 1k+ is where any decent endgame destro dragonknight should sit, without breaking as sweat in basic gear.

Two handed is so far behind its not even funny.

1k destro dk? lmao

Dks longest range damage spell is 8 meters.....So I assume the DK would be getting all that dmg from staff only skills....(assuming ur using a range weapon at......range). I dunno though maybe you can spam impulse for 1k+ dps single target!

Erock25

steinernein wrote: »

The only reason I think it is a possibility is because of wrecking blow and how it behave similarly to crystal fragments, but the primary difference is that you're in melee range which means you can take advantage of bash cancelling.

So your damage would look something like this in a raw format 214 light + elemental proc (50?) + 1 sec charge up time/cancel time for Wrecking Blow (615) + bash 200 (?) , other dots and effects you may have up Flames of Oblivion 50? Engulfing Flames 50?. Doable No crits included, but chances are with Molten Armaments you would see a larger increase over igneous. Also, not calculating any extra damage you may get from passives. That'll get you to 600+ depending on your execution.

The reason I think this may be sustainable is due to having a templar in your group throwing out shards, and wearing all medium with Hircine's set bonus stacked twice (once from yourself, once from an ally) - so with GDB up you'll be around 180%~ increase in stamina regen. After 80, you'll be hitting the soft cap so you'll get 90% back - so you'll be getting from regen alone around eh.. let's go with a 100/s with drink buff at the very least.

So, throw on crit chance, weapon power, stamina regen pots, helping hands, and Luminous Shards you should be covered for the most part. And if you're fighting Daedra use Evil Hunter for procs etc.

No way is light attack -> Wrecking Blow -> bash a sustainable rotation. Even your theoretical rotation would take at least 2 seconds total and does 1080 dmg so you are under your dps target even without activating the templar shard synergy or using green dragon blood.

steinernein

I doubt you have ever ran with that specific set up, and like I said, on paper you should be able to sustain it with pot usage and it may possibly require you to run as a red guard.

As for the rotation it takes anywhere from 1.6-2 depending on your execution/latency. Either way, you should be doing more than 600 DPS after you factor in crits even with ability usage.

Moonchilde

This is the best thread I have read on these entire forums. Its extremely informative, full of great ideas, free of savage personal attacks, and everything I've been able to experience with 2H since beta is stated here very clearly. I hope this info makes it to the devs.

Axer

steinernein wrote: »

[
I'd like to see parses and other evidence of a destro knight busting out 1k+ consistently over the duration of two minutes or more; most people with those builds are going anywhere from 700 to 900 which includes using the dragon standard.

Two minutes or more?

lol. The hardest VR dungeon fights in the game my guild always ends in under 2 minutes, almost always under 90 seconds too. Nothing in the game has enough hp for that atm. And the way mana works, you expend it in 7-15 seconds tops anyways, so any sustained is fully fleshed out in a 30 second fight tops. Changes past that are only due to special boss mechancis, that shouldnt affect class/weapon skill balance in differnet ways to any large degree.

And actually Im a TANK templar and I can very frequently pull off 800-900 single target dps. 1k is a joke for our best DKs. They are insanely ahead.

Gear does have a big impact. I personally use the Soulshine set (+20% spell damage - tho its heavy armor, so not ideal for dps'ers), we have a healer with the 5 piece wormcult (-8% spell cost for whole grp) and our dps run things like willows path (5% spellcrit) magnus (5% free spells) and seducer (-3% costs), with a few of us close to finishing the pact set (+10% spell crit). With all of that combined, yea DPS in that range is not at all difficult for DKs.

Don't have any screenshots of his single target, but yea I have some of his AOE at 5800. So doing 1/5th of that in single is not exactly gonna surprise me.

steinernein

Well, feel free to show the parses/logs -- it doesn't matter how long the fight goes on, what I am interested in seeing is proper context and the sustained DPS/overall for the entire fight.

And really until you post screen shots there isn't really much to discuss and furthermore, talking about DKs as the gold standard is kind of silly since it's binary if they're that far ahead.

CapuchinSeven

SuperScrubby wrote: »

It's sad when I see 1h weapons that have slightly less damage than my 2H weapon. It really does need a buff because it's got some pretty low dps too.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/light-attacks-vs-heavy-and-igneous-weapons/

If you look at the weapon damage/character damage the 2H is a lot higher than the other weapons but does pretty abysmal damage. The skills are somewhat lackluster especially uppercut the 1 sec cast feels longer than 1 second to actually connect. That with the length it takes to actually execute a heavy attack makes it pretty lame.

But I would have to agree with the OP, that it definitely feels underwhelming. I'm lvling up bow for long range and then I'm going to test out DW.

You're TOTALLY misunderstanding that test, that test shows the difference between light and heavy attacks on all different weapon types, not as a comparison between weapon types, it was NOT carried out with the same quality of levels. The current last post in the thread even points that out.

Axer

steinernein wrote: »

Well, feel free to show the parses/logs -- it doesn't matter how long the fight goes on, what I am interested in seeing is proper context and the sustained DPS/overall for the entire fight.

And really until you post screen shots there isn't really much to discuss and furthermore, talking about DKs as the gold standard is kind of silly since it's binary if they're that far ahead.

?
Is it not 100% logical to balance inferior skills lines against the gold standard?

Seems to make the most sense to me.

Pretty sure ZO said many times
"Classes are just a template, they should not completely define your character, your free to pick any skill line you want and do well with it"

Currently, that's not the case. DKs especially, but also templars and sorcerers class skill lines are VASTLY superior to two handeds best possible dps, cc, and every other type of utility it offers. (Nightblades need buffs too)

5800 dps DK burst aoe - about a 8 second parse tho, so not just pure spike - and actually thats the entire duration of that particular miniboss type fight, for that pull (its a few waves of dwemer):
http://i.imgur.com/tzYL1g8.jpg

Note that aside from the obvious ultimate, he only has 1 DK skill on his bar. Primary dps this is coming from is Destro staff.
Also note he's using pulsar, which is the lower dps morph of impulse...

(And these are all my guildies, im not present in the group, was just chatting with them on mumble and he mentioned his dps and I didn't believe it so I asked for a SS.)

Show me anywhere in the same stratosphere as that using only 1 class skills, and primarily 2 handed damage.

Dinapuff

Falmer wrote: »

You can't simply compare DPS across the weapon types, they do different things.

The damage shield I get off cleave, which can be pretty much spammed means 100 less health damage for a handful of stamina points, of which I always have plenty of.

The uppercut means single targets don't have much of a shot.

Dismissing 2 handed just because it doesn't have a higher damage output is really missing the whole concept behind many of its abilities.

Yes you can compare the DPS across weapon types. Because it is only by comparison you can finally see the drawbacks and advantages of each one.

With two handed you:
1. have less damage than dw (offhand gives you more weapon damage than two handers and you have double enchants adding to damage). The lack of dedicated 2h enchants furthermore increases the damage gap.
2. can't put down another 3 piece setbonus (lacking offhand)
3. Lack raidwide utilities. (nothing you do will add a debuff to the enemy that other styles don't add, and nothing you do adds benefits to allies).
4. inferior aoe damage to just about anything (bow and dw is better on this territory).
5. inferior passives that buff damage further (dualwield passives are flat out better)
6. 2h have no good stamina dumps (execute vs flying blade is no contest to which is better).


2h is not competitive in pve or pvp. Period.

Murmeltier

Hm, i am playing a 2H Templer and test the Morph from Cleave/Brawler. I test the Reverse Slice and Executioner Morph too but i am not impressed for the Damage, either it is too low or cost an additional Slot to work (Executioner Morph).

But i am only 26, maybe Executioner or Reverse Slice are workin better at higher Levels.

But for the Brawler Morph i can give you some Numbers, i see at my Level 26. For every Mob i hit, it gives me a 50+ TP Shield at Level 26. Later at the higher Levels it will do more. That means, if i hit one Mob i have a 50+ Shield, if i hit 3 Mobs i get 150+ Shield.

Normaly i charge into a 3er Mobgroup and start with a Cleave/Brawler and then i hit them with Biting Jabs, then again with Brawler followed by the Biting Jabs. After three Cleaves + Biting Jabs the Mobs normaly dying. That means i have used 3x Brawler and the Shield negates 450 Damage (3er Mobs/50+ TP each) for me. I have buffed 650 TP so this Shield gives me a longer Defence in a Fight.

Cleave doesnt make much Damage and the Executioner Morph doesnt really help and cost an additional Slot. But the Shield works very well for me if i go for Groups to AOE them and you can hit more then 3 Mobs at the same time.

MFG Murmeltier.