2 Handed needs to be buffed. Entire style is rather terrible atm

Axer

Armitas wrote: »

Same rank as you, VR5, Purple V4 2 hander, but otherwise I'm built around tanking rather than dps.

I'm undecided, until I get optimized for dps, as to whether it's under powered..so no comment on that. But I do know it's not terrible atm...so long as you avoid the slow animation. If you are going through the full animations I imagine it would be pretty bad.

I'm tank built as well. But if you at all care to do the difficulty pve content (group VR dungeons) well and properly (EG: Fast so you can get the 20min achievements, and more loot/xp) - then as a tank you also need to dps well.

So yea, I switched to duel wield and we crush VR Banished cells in 10-15 mins instead of 15-20min. Had a massive impact.

Yes two handed is "viable". And as a tank, you can certainly get thru most/all content without dealing any kind of decent dps, its not 100% your job. By why suck so badly when you shouldn't have to. (hell you can get thru all the content without ever swinging a weapon, class skills are just plain better in 99% of cases)

Two handed CAN be the aoe-tanking line, and not have laughable dps compared to duel wield. Theres no reason not to think it needs to be fairly balanced.

and your whole "perform exploits/workarounds to avoid slow anims" idea is all fine and well for regular attacks.. But has no impact on the skills. Executioner and Uppercut are plain and simply stupidly slow compared to the duel wield skills, and do less damage, and less useful cc, and they cant be speed up at all, period. (+attack speed has no impact, it only affects normal swings).

Normal swings just dont come into high lvl play. CLS shows me my damage breakdown, its around 50% biting jabs, 40% various duel wield, and sub 10% regular attacks. They just aren't relevant. (with two hand, the 2hand skills were more like 15% if i used executioner, or next to zero if i used cleaves).

re: other post about "oh i can kill the insanely laughably easy solo content mobs/bosses with it". Yea great. Try again at VR level in group dungeons to dps with a two handed, prepare to suffer.

Fact is several of my guild used em too, on DK dps builds. We failed badly on the dps-REQUIRED challenges (EG: Spindleclutch boss 2 has a ~2min time limit). They changed over to duel wield or destro staff and not only was the trash 10000% easier, but the bosses died faster and they had better cc. It's plain and simply a 100% superior skill line. As is duel wield.

So yes: You can kill crap easy mobs with it. I did too. Like I said, I was dumb enough to spend 54 levels using it. I know.
No: It's not balanced, its not competitive, and its not enough for VR dungeons.

Axer

Gisgo wrote: »

Uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak -> uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak...

Its almost OP.

Stun locking monster in VR dungeons is probably the most worthless thing you could ever do.

You face no less then 10 at a time. If you are only fighting one, you are NOT pulling your weight.

And all bosses are 100% immune to cc.

So it's quite worthless.

And theres tons of other skill lines that can stunlock tell you run outa mana/stam. Uppercut is among the worst, given its high cost and VERY SLOW initial strike.

Where is stun locking useful? 1 v 1 pvp only. Any decent pvp'er will tel you how horribly bad two handers are in pvp. Their only use is to charge in to root someoen, then switch weapons or spam class skills, anything else is better done with other lines, and even that, is better done with the 1hand charge, as it not only roots, it knocks down, for a longer time.

Armitas

Axer wrote: »

Fact is several of my guild used em too, on DK dps builds. We failed badly on the dps-REQUIRED challenges (EG: Spindleclutch boss 2 has a ~2min time limit). They changed over to duel wield or destro staff and not only was the trash 10000% easier, but the bosses died faster and they had better cc. It's plain and simply a 100% superior skill line. As is duel wield.

I got through Veteran Spindleclutch Boss 2 (Blood Spawn) just fine with a two hander, and not even optimized for dps.

Again. I won't comment on it's comparability till I get optimized and see it for myself. I am neutral to the matter, meaning that I neither agree or disagree with you on the level of comparability yet. Though there are points that I do certainly agree with you on. Ostensibly? Sure, it looks that way. But I personally need to do more testing before I can come to an affirmative opinion on it.

jvargas150_ESO

The poster is 100% RIGHT... Anyone who thinks otherwise is basing there opinion on single target lil mobs.. Go try fighting a boss in a veteran dungeon you will hate this game after that...

You will want to quit or play another toon.

2hander is so bad, you are stupid to even attempt to use it. Its sad because I was loving this game till I realize how bad of a weapon this is for a dungeon boss. Totally broke my skill setup : /


I too am a Nightblade so the guy up top who thinks his combo is good, its only because you haven't had boss fights... you will be sorely disappointed as I was since I use pretty much the same exact combo you have been using.

This needs to get fix asap...

EDIT: To say the problem was so bad its how I found this post, I was searching for info because I knew something was wrong and I was right : /

Armitas

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

2hander is so bad, you are stupid to even attempt to use it. Its sad because I was loving this game till I realize how bad of a weapon this is for a dungeon boss. Totally broke my skill setup : /

Ah thanks for identifying my problem. I wasn't aware that I was stupid. Thanks for clearing that up, knowing is half the battle.

Sinoby

Reavan wrote: »

One thing i hate is my bows light attacks hit for 170' and my 2h same quality same level hits for 130.
That and you can argue the bow fires faster.

Yeah, what's up with that? I found it out yesterday when realising my bow light atacks deal a lot of damage comparing to "weapon damage" of the bow itself. So I compared my 102 dmg bow to 124 dmg 2H. Light atacks of bow were 147 on normal mobs (from close range), while 2H were cere close to 125. I have fully maxed out 2H with all morphs maxed out, and just reachd lvl 36 with bow. Shouldn't melee 2H weapon deal considerably more damage than ranged?

Axer

Sinoby wrote: »

Shouldn't melee 2H weapon deal considerably more damage than ranged?

Yea. If the game had any kind of balance at all.

Ranged users can solo challenging group melee mobs by kiting them, many of which are plain 100% impossible for the finest most skilled melee players on the server.

Thats just a plain fact in a game that allows you to attack 100% without penalty while moving, with a ranged weapon.

The fact they also deal more damage is just plain broken.

The only current saving grace to melee is that sword and board provides a fairly huge boost to blocking mitigation, making it required for some of the most diffcult bosses. If this wasn't the case, there would be ZERO reason to ever use melee styles at all in this game, as they are all otherwise inferior. (And for dps purposes, they plain and simply all are.)

Axer

Armitas wrote: »

I got through Veteran Spindleclutch Boss 2 (Blood Spawn) just fine with a two hander, and not even optimized for dps.

Yea. So did I .

My party members carred me through it. (Tho 80% of my dps was biting jabs anyways).

So yea, the comment is rather irellevant, unless your whole party was using two handers, and only two handed skills for dps.

And they weren't. Because thats impossible to win that fight doing that.

Armitas

Sinoby wrote: »

Reavan wrote: »

One thing i hate is my bows light attacks hit for 170' and my 2h same quality same level hits for 130.
That and you can argue the bow fires faster.

Yeah, what's up with that? I found it out yesterday when realising my bow light atacks deal a lot of damage comparing to "weapon damage" of the bow itself. So I compared my 102 dmg bow to 124 dmg 2H. Light atacks of bow were 147 on normal mobs (from close range), while 2H were cere close to 125. I have fully maxed out 2H with all morphs maxed out, and just reachd lvl 36 with bow. Shouldn't melee 2H weapon deal considerably more damage than ranged?

Wow, something is really screwed up there. I noticed that bow attacks seem a lot faster too.

Armitas

Axer wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I got through Veteran Spindleclutch Boss 2 (Blood Spawn) just fine with a two hander, and not even optimized for dps.

Yea. So did I .

My party members carred me through it. (Tho 80% of my dps was biting jabs anyways).

So yea, the comment is rather irellevant, unless your whole party was using two handers, and only two handed skills for dps.

And they weren't. Because thats impossible to win that fight doing that.

If you think spindleclutch is irrelevant then don't bring it up and then make ad hoc conditions to it when the example doesn't pan out.

You told me your dps was around 250. So yeah they carried you. My light attacks alone can do 200 damage. So I'm not going to believe the fight is impossible with a 2 hander just because you say it is impossible.

Again, not saying it doesn't need some adjustment. Especially after what Sinoby just added.

reagen_lionel

Armitas wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I got through Veteran Spindleclutch Boss 2 (Blood Spawn) just fine with a two hander, and not even optimized for dps.

Yea. So did I .

My party members carred me through it. (Tho 80% of my dps was biting jabs anyways).

So yea, the comment is rather irellevant, unless your whole party was using two handers, and only two handed skills for dps.

And they weren't. Because thats impossible to win that fight doing that.

If you think spindleclutch is irrelevant then don't bring it up and then make ad hoc conditions to it when the example doesn't pan out.

You told me your dps was around 250. So yeah they carried you. My light attacks alone can do 200 damage. So I'm not going to believe the fight is impossible with a 2 hander just because you say it is impossible.

Again, not saying it doesn't need some adjustment. Especially after what Sinoby just added.

He didnt say Spindleclutch is irrelevant. He's saying just because you went through it just fine with a 2hander is irrelevant. As even if you had good or decent dps. the party would had been able to carry you through regardless as long as you just hit something.

And he also it impossible if the whole party was using 2 handers.

You are twisting everything that he is saying.

Armitas

reagen_lionel wrote: »

He didnt say Spindleclutch is irrelevant. He's saying just because you went through it just fine with a 2hander is irrelevant. As even if you had good or decent dps. the party would had been able to carry you through regardless as long as you just hit something.

And he also it impossible if the whole party was using 2 handers.

You are twisting everything that he is saying.

I have not argued that it is equal to other weapons. To bring up SpindleClutch as a comparison to other weapons is irrelevant to anything I said, other than by case of it being impossible to succeed by 2 hander. Which is matter of factually incorrect, and I pointed that out.

If it is irrelevant that I can succeed with a 2hander, it makes the entire example irrelevant as I made no case to comparability, and as far as being able to use a 2 hander in that DPS race we already know it to be possible. Which leaves the example effete, or irrelevant in reference to anything I have said. I have only said that the OP should be getting a lot better dps than he is currently getting, as to his points I agree with a lot of them, many are spot on. I also agree that, ostensibly, it seems under powered; which I have stated before.

Regarding whether it's impossible in all 2 handers that is just an assertion. I can't say the statement is false, but based on some of the comments I have seen so far I have no reason to believe it's true either. If the example is just going to be used as an assertion dispenser (they carried you, it's impossible) to any counter example then it is in fact irrelevant and a waste of my time to respond to.

NTclaymore

I think the wierd part of 2handed isnt the skills much but the base damage on the weapons. the 2h sword barely does more damage than the 1h sword does. my other problem is crafting. If i dual-wield or use Shield and sword I get a total of 9 items i can craft. that leaves room for 3 3item set effects while 2h takes up 2 slots but only Counts as one item making it 8 craftable items you have to Work with leaving you a set effect short.

Crescent

2H is just bad. Critical Rush is about the only good thing about it. Brawler needs a damage boost and it'd be great too. The rest is bad. Executioner needs the mob at too low HP to actually start doing damage.

reagen_lionel

NTclaymore wrote: »

I think the wierd part of 2handed isnt the skills much but the base damage on the weapons. the 2h sword barely does more damage than the 1h sword does. my other problem is crafting. If i dual-wield or use Shield and sword I get a total of 9 items i can craft. that leaves room for 3 3item set effects while 2h takes up 2 slots but only Counts as one item making it 8 craftable items you have to Work with leaving you a set effect short.

Thats effectively the same thing I mentioned in a previous post about the base damage thing being the same through all weapons.

Axer

Yea read craglorn update preview patch notes:

Duel wields getting a small buff. Two hands getting tiny nerf (slower stamina regen)..

ZO really have no idea how to balance this game.

Fact is both of them need a buff, tho two handeds needs to be massive.

The best and really only useful in hard VR dungeons weapon skills are, sword n board, Destro staff and bow. (Duel wield is functional, tho still vastly inferior to class skills)

Theron75

Browsing through the forums regarding 2H...I'm glad it's not just me.

2H feels gimped in every way possible. I had high hopes of playing a 2H Nord DK or possibly Templar tank, but I can't seem to make it to level 5 without dying 20 times. The DPS output is far too low to stand toe-to-toe with anything. At least not good enough for me to stick with it.

I rolled a dual-wield NB, and I can run around naked and kill stuff 2 levels higher. Who needs defense with that much offense?

2H was gimped in Skyrim, too. I don't see how anyone bothers with it.

Crescent

If you're dying at level 5 or below vet ranks with 2H the problem is you. The weapon is not good but it functions perfectly up to vet rank.

Hetzer

i play as 2h templar, stack stamina to max dmg. At v5 i have no problem against one or two mobs, 3 with a luck, 4+ is a suicide.

Pvp is a disaster. Against a armored tank i cannot overdamage even HP regen. But charge is very handy, i killed a lot of ppl(v1+) by only spaming this skill.
I think the problem is not in the weapon but in stamina cos you have to pay sprint, skills,bash,dodge, block,stealth,cc break. And magica means only skills.

The weapon is not bad but we use it wrong i guess. ZO should make video or something like that about weapons, cos i spend 100k+ gold for respec in order to find the best option for weapons and as stamina based is that weapon the best in pve.

Theron75

Crescent wrote: »

If you're dying at level 5 or below vet ranks with 2H the problem is you. The weapon is not good but it functions perfectly up to vet rank.

No, not really. Not when I can play any other class and any other weapon without any problems. 2H was bad in Skyrim also, but not this bad. Been playing MMOs for almost 20 years and have never had this kind of an issue. I'm not one of those whiners who complains about things being broken, but this weapon needs some serious reworking.

Dinapuff

I agree. All melee is lackluster in this game, and if you have too much of it you will loose. Most of the bosses have mechanics designed to make it difficult to melee, rather than make it hard on ranged.

This means your job as melee in this game is either as a tank, or as ranged.

Doesn't have to be that way though.

Here is what I would do.

Forceful needs to apply to all 2 handed weapon skills.

Cleave should do more damage if there are less than the maximum mobs to hit, and it needs to gain benefits from forceful.

Uppercut should have a chance on hit to be instant / halved swingtime.

Reverse slash would have to be more applicable to everyday situations rather than low hp. I'd suggest an added slow or bleed effect.

Rally really should be a passive. Put it on battle rush (last tier passive).
Battle rush would then be. 10% increased damage permanently. Whenever you kill an enemy you gain an instant heal and some stamina.

The old momentum would then be. Aggressive stance. A mirror of Defensive posture except for damage. A 30 second buff that reflects spells and increases damage by 10% and an additional 2% every second it is active. The morphs could be a simple time increase to 45 seconds or a heal if the spell hits.

Or it could be a group buff that you refresh from time to time. Rallying cry. Increases weapon damage in X aoe for 1 minute.

Arcane fighter needs to be about added damage rather than promote light attacks. 50-100% added effect on weapon enhancement when using a two handed weapon. To combat the fact that dualwielders get twice the benefit.

That's just off the top of my head, but it seems like they have made some *** melee combat and it isn't hard to improve on it.

SuperScrubby

Those are some good idea's. I enjoy 2H and I love using 2H swords but it really is just mediocrity at its best. Range really is super easy and always has been in every game, but since this game allows you to wear heavy armor and heal at the same time its just super super easy.

I do like the stamina regen that 2H gives except they're nerfing that "slightly" in the next big patch. So most likely it'll be nerfed into oblivion since its ZoS we're talking about.

Crescent

Problem with bleed as well is that bleeds and DoT's in this game are really bad. Twin Fangs for dual wield barely do any damage with the bleed, which is supposed to be the bulk of the damage.

Zsymon

Look at it this way, the Twohander is such a horrible weapon, that the developers won't have a choice but to update it at some point. The developers have proven that they care about this game, and that they care about how much fun us players have playing the various setups, so my only expectation is that they will address this problem (I'm a 2H user as well) and upgrade the Twohanded skill line.

If a light bow attack does 50% more damage at 50% higher speed than a light twohanded attack, then something is seriously wrong, and I don't think the developers will ignore things like this. Personally I only ever use the heavy attack in pve, very slow but the light attacks are so piddly they're just not worth using. Maybe there aren't changes in the next PTS patch yet because they need more time to find out how to update the Twohanded skill line.

Though it would be nice to get some feedback from the team about their plans with the Twohanded problem.

Luminant

I don't think 2h is scaling properly at all. I have a perkless green bow that does more damage all around than my epic 2h sword with every perk and many other bonuses.

Tarwin

Armitas wrote: »

jvargas150_ESO wrote: »

2hander is so bad, you are stupid to even attempt to use it. Its sad because I was loving this game till I realize how bad of a weapon this is for a dungeon boss. Totally broke my skill setup : /

Ah thanks for identifying my problem. I wasn't aware that I was stupid. Thanks for clearing that up, knowing is half the battle.

SirPuppingtonVonHat

I would expect the two handers and their abilities to see some much needed love by patch 1.2, since thats when they said the less-used morphs and abilities would get an overhaul. Until then, we can only give suggestions.

The_Emproer

the only thing i really want to see for 2H is maybe a small buff to cleave's initial damage, and some kind of alternative to Uppercut. On my NB 2H is fantastic, because i have Veiled Strike to use as a filler DPS ability weaved between basic attacks until a mob is ~40% health, at which point i can start weaving in executioner for massive DPS. on my DK however, after i put on my dots i'm left sitting there with slow basic attacks doing 'meh' DPS.

2H could really benefit from some kind of filler single target damage ability for when a target is above 40% HP, uppercut isn't really doing the trick currently and is just a bad ability in general.

also @Axer, i feel like you've made some completely incorrect points. you call Reverse Slash a bad ability when it's easily one of the best weapon abilities in the game? it's an execute, it's not meant to do a lot of damage until an enemy is low health, at which point it outscales any other single target ability. a lot of false information as well; you say DW swings 60% faster, but in reality it swings 30% faster at the cost of 30% damage compared to 2H. there isn't a huge damage difference between the light attacks of the two.

Cleave is also fairly strong as an AoE so long as you spam it (and both of it's morphs are basically begging you to spam it). 2H as a whole is pretty close to being where it's supposed to be; it's definitely not a trash weapon, Uppercut just really needs to be replaced with something that isn't worthless.

ArRashid

Agree with... pretty much everything. The only weapons I found "OK" at VR (so far) are destro and resto staves. 2h or dual just gets you killed more or less instantly, if you don't have relatively cheap, godly CC.. which you don't. Volcanic rune has pretty good magicka cost vs effect, but it also scatters mobs all around and you virtually can't hit them for the same time as they can't hit you.. so it's kind of wasted magicka.

Brawler, as all absorb shield abilities, is utterly useless, since damage is FIRSTLY dealt to bubble, and THEN, if anything of that damage is NOT absorbed - armor, resist AND block are applied. That virtually means that most shields are GONE INSTANTLY on first attack, because nothing you can do makes them last longer. Which is totally *** and useless. That's why I stopped using bubbles from DK class and resto staff and everything else..

Axer

The_Emproer wrote: »

it's an execute, it's not meant to do a lot of damage until an enemy is low health, at which point it outscales any other single target ability. a lot of false information as well; you say DW swings 60% faster, but in reality it swings 30% faster at the cost of 30% damage compared to 2H. there isn't a huge damage difference between the light attacks of the two.

It's a garbage execute is the problem. Maybe you've never ran with a templar or a sorcerer? Their execute abilities deal around THREE TIMES the dps. (and don't deal less dps then a regular light attack when not below 25% - they deal vastly more)

Re: Attack swings. It was a rough guess. Though actually I underestimated, after more testing:
Duel wield does vastly more dps with heavy attacks - because BOTH weapons hit, and both hit harder.
- A duel wield heavy attack is around 30% faster, with double the hits, thus the overall attacks per minute goes up +160%. So yea if anything, I was vastly underestimating, and you plain don't understand the attack system.

And no, light attacks aren't 30% stronger on a two hander. They are about 15% stronger. And actaully since duel wields total weapon damage is higher for some dumb reason, it also benefits more from + percentile weapon damage skills, resulting in light attacks being pretty damn close in damage.

There is also an itemization issue:
The best 1hander in VR dungeons is burning brand sword (Enchant deals 90 fire dmg upgraded), 2handed ? Pile of crap maul with a garbage enchant.