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2 Handed needs to be buffed. Entire style is rather terrible atm

Axer
Axer
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Yea 100% maxed out on 2hand and 1hand and shield now. And in essentially every way possible, 1hand and shield is better. Just plain unbalanced.

Key core facts:
- 2handers swing slow. And the recovery animation is extremely slow. And it can't be interupted by a wep swap. So if you wanan do a quick 2hand hit and switch modes, forget it.
- 2 handers deal terrible damage. About 15-20% more then 1hand and shield, but swing around 30-40% slower, resulting in plain and simply lower dps for regular attacks. Plain unacceptable. Vs duel wield: ~60% slower attacks per second, (and duel wield hits about as hard feated, with higher damage when mobs low health)
- 2handers put you at a massive disadvantage vs both duel wield and 1hand and shield for one simple reason: Some of the strongest loot bonuses in the game are set bonuses. 2handers mean you automatically have 1 less slot for set bonuses. And the beter sets being 3 piece, means duel wield and sword and board can use a 3x3 setup, while 2hand cannot. Thats a massive 33% loss in effectiveness.
- Obvious stuff: Shields grant additional armor, and 1 more enchant. and offhand wep grants another enchant.

So with all of these huge disadvantages, youd think at least the skills would offer some strong dps to compensate? Nope.

I'll go thru each skill:
-Critical Charge:
It's good. However it's inferior to 1hands charge. As the one hand version has a significant duration knockdown (claims a stun, but its false/bugged). The 2hand can morph to a root.. However your up in the enemies face, so whats the point of a root? Does you 100% nothing useful. Only useful to aid group members under melee assault (who wish to flee). Very RARE situation. Damage wise: The fact it auto crits is really a detriment, since it means you have no ability to power up the skill. It's very weak damage, and it will never change. Also there are SO MANY charges/teleports in the game, that makes it pretty bland.

-Uppercut:
Utterly horrible, and plain inferior to nearly every other CC-type move in the game. Insanely slow swing animation and horribly low damage means more often then not youll die attempting to use this. So bad that I simply never EVER slotted it, in fact I untrained it. Fire destruction staff has a VERY similar move, thats 100% superior, and thats a RANGED skill line, so why does it get plain better melee moves? Makes no sense. (Faster anim, higher damage, better range, etc)
There's a reason this is used by all the VERY EASY WEAK melee trash mobs in the game. It's to cater to the low-skill solo players. Trash skill for trash monsters.

Reverse Slash:
Utterly horrible. It costs a LOT of stamina and deals INFERIOR damage to a REGULAR light attack. Makes zero sense. Why am I spending a precious resource to deal LESS damage? Only deals a bit more when the monster is low health, but at that point its either:
a) Trash mob - gonna die in 1 hit from far superior moves anyways.
b) Boss mob - probably gets more dangerous at low health, in which case you REALLY should be using that stamin to block/dodge, and magicka to finish it off.
Essentially has no purpose. No use.

Momentum:
Ok. Ups weapon damage - a tiny bit - nothing significant enough to change the badness of this line. Morph to remove snares. Best use is using it then switching to weapons that can actually deal dps, as two handers plain don't.

Cleave:
Cleave itself is EXTREMELY weak and not worth using. Deals less dps then regular attacks and cost a lot of stamina.
Once morphed to brawler, it becomes a semi-effective aoe tanking tool. It's the only really decently balanced skill it has. Nothing great, but at least gives two handed some purpose for tank builds. (Which is counter intiutive, since the entire rest of the line has zero defensive qualities).
Also doesn't really scale well damage shield wise. So while I found it decent 1-50, in the VR dungeons the 100xmonsters DR shield gets blown up instantly and you still die rather fast spamming it.

Passives:
All generally quite bland and worthless except arcane fighter. Which is nice to set enemies ablaze with a fire two hander, but otherwise still pretty weak given weapon enchantments 4s cooldown.

Suggestions to fix:
- Massive increase to 2handers base damage. With the incredibly slow swings of a two hander, they REALLY should deal good damage.
- Massive increase to 2handers power attack damage. Currently the best dps is spamming light attacks. We should be rewarded properly for getting in those very slow, very dangerous to use power attacks. Have them automatically proc weapon effects too, regardless of cooldown. They are just so slow, they need all the help they can get.
- Have reverse slash actually deal more damage then a regular light attack.
- Delete uppercut and give us a proper, high cost, high impact DPS skill for mobs above 25% health. Else triple it's animation speed so its not a detriment to use.
- Change critical charges morph to a knockdown like 1hand, increase it's damage and remove its auto crit. (Rename to Devastating Charge). This allows players to actaully work towards scaling its damage up with crits, and gives it proper utility.
- Double momentums effectiveness, but have it go away if you swap to a different type of weapon.
Edited by Axer on April 23, 2014 12:05AM
Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    There are a few skills I like, Rally, executioner and charge, but the other skills and base attacks are pretty weak on their own.

    However with the right timing you can get better damage out of your base weapon attacks than your skills. Here is a guide to help you time your attacks and greatly increase your dps.
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82974/two-handed-guide-how-to-increase-your-attack-speed#latest
    Edited by Armitas on April 22, 2014 4:15PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Axer
    Axer
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    Armitas wrote: »
    There are a few skills I like, Rally, executioner and charge, but the other skills and base attacks are pretty weak on their own.

    However with the right timing you can get better damage out of your base weapon attacks than your skills. Here is a guide to help you time your attacks and greatly increase your dps.
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82974/two-handed-guide-how-to-increase-your-attack-speed#latest

    Maybe on some weaker classes or something.

    But for templars, 2hand dps is not even in the same stratosphere as the class skills.

    And I know all the tricks, and a few you didn't list.

    Even executioner at low health, biting jabs plain and simply does more dps. Around double. It also is much longer ranger, is aoe, it's faster, and it's less buggy interupt wise.

    Overall I can burst out 600-700+ dps with my class skills single target, and over a thousand aoe. While I can only dream of hoping to manage 250-300 with 2handed. It's night and day.

    Will see how duel wield plays out. I got burning brand (+80 fire dmg 1hander) so ill play with it soon. (200k xp to go to use it)
    Edited by Axer on April 22, 2014 4:53PM
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    Axer wrote: »
    Armitas wrote: »
    There are a few skills I like, Rally, executioner and charge, but the other skills and base attacks are pretty weak on their own.

    However with the right timing you can get better damage out of your base weapon attacks than your skills. Here is a guide to help you time your attacks and greatly increase your dps.
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82974/two-handed-guide-how-to-increase-your-attack-speed#latest

    Maybe on some weaker classes or something.

    But for templars, 2hand dps is not even in the same stratosphere as the class skills.

    And I know all the tricks, and a few you didn't list.

    Even executioner at low health, biting jabs plain and simply does more dps. Around double. It also is much longer ranger, is aoe, it's faster, and it's less buggy interupt wise.

    Overall I can burst out 600-700+ dps with my class skills single target, and over a thousand aoe. While I can only dream of hoping to manage 250-300 with 2handed. It's night and day.

    Will see how duel wield plays out. I got burning brand (+80 fire dmg 1hander) so ill play with it soon. (200k xp to go to use it)

    Are you sure you are using them right? I'm usually getting over 500 single target dps, though I am using some longer combos then those listed in that thread.
    (I would probably get more if I was set up for dps and started optimizing my attacks.)


    Edited by Armitas on April 22, 2014 5:36PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Gisgo
    Gisgo
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    Man with 2h you can bash and destroy an enemy in seconds... what are you talking about? Did you raise your stamina like a true man does? :p
    Edited by Gisgo on April 22, 2014 5:09PM
  • wastelanderer
    wastelanderer
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    Critical Charge need nock down and stun, two hand need more dps speed is OK.
  • Gisgo
    Gisgo
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    Pick one between the ability to CC with every hit and the DPS, cos you cant have both.
  • wastelanderer
    wastelanderer
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    Speaking realistically, what happen if someone is charging at you at full speed and hit you with a heavy two hand weapon? will you be able to stand still? will you orient fast? will you have a massive damage cause to your self? possible death?
    That's what CC should do.
  • Reavan
    Reavan
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    Leave my critical charge alone.
    Apart from that i mostly agree.
  • reagen_lionel
    reagen_lionel
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    The main thing I find an issue with 2 hands. is that no matter what weapon you have, they all share the same base damage. So you have a battleaxe with the same base damage as a dagger you would have except one swings slower. It really defeats the purpose of even using a 2hand. Yes you get passives that increase 2hands weapon effectiveness but why should you get a passive to make a 2hand sword better than a dagger?

    In Oblivion and Skyrim the defense crushing ability of 2 handed hammers was the immediate boon to using a 2handed hammer besides that it swings the slowest. Axes naturally caused bleeds when you hit someone with them. Thats something thats initial about the weapon itself, what sense does it make to get a passive to all of a sudden have a hammer able to crush defenses?

    In addition there is no immediate difference between a 2 hand axe or a 2hand sword or a 2 hand hammer without the passives. The sword and hammer swings at the same speed when the hammer is supposed to swing the slowest but hit the hardest (which doesnt apply because all weapons have the same base damage to you).

    The skill lines could use some alterations/additions. But the core issue for me is what I stated above.
    Edited by reagen_lionel on April 22, 2014 8:27PM
  • Reavan
    Reavan
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    One thing i hate is my bows light attacks hit for 170' and my 2h same quality same level hits for 130.
    That and you can argue the bow fires faster.
  • beravinprb19_ESO
    beravinprb19_ESO
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    I agree with most of what you have said. Indeed, I find it rather strange that weapons have the same base damage. Some weapons are far slower, and the trade off is usually that they hit a lot harder. That said, these are a few issues I have with two handed weapons:

    1. Momentum -> Rally. For an ability that last 25 or so seconds, the down time before you receive the heal is much too large. I often refresh the ability long before I get a heal.

    2. Reverse Slash -> Executioner. Weapon attacks (not abilities) should also receive the damage boost. In addition, this ability could use a buff to the damage it can deal.

    3. Cleave -> Brawler. I would like to see the range of the cleave increased. It is difficult to hit multiple targets, and the damage is low enough that the range could be buffed.

    4. Battle Rush. It is often difficult to secure the last hit in most PvE / PvP situations. I would like to see this changed to activate when hitting an enemy with a certain % of health.

    5. Forceful Impact. It is difficult to hit a second target with it, and the damage reward is very mild for doing so. I would like to see its range increased or its damage increased.
    Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on April 22, 2014 10:35PM
  • SuperScrubby
    SuperScrubby
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    It's sad when I see 1h weapons that have slightly less damage than my 2H weapon. It really does need a buff because it's got some pretty low dps too.

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/light-attacks-vs-heavy-and-igneous-weapons/

    If you look at the weapon damage/character damage the 2H is a lot higher than the other weapons but does pretty abysmal damage. The skills are somewhat lackluster especially uppercut the 1 sec cast feels longer than 1 second to actually connect. That with the length it takes to actually execute a heavy attack makes it pretty lame.

    But I would have to agree with the OP, that it definitely feels underwhelming. I'm lvling up bow for long range and then I'm going to test out DW.
  • Axer
    Axer
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Are you sure you are using them right? I'm usually getting over 500 single target dps, though I am using some longer combos then those listed in that thread.
    (I would probably get more if I was set up for dps and started optimizing my attacks.)

    Being neither of us mentioned our levels, builds or weapons used, any such comparions is pretty foolish.
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Thevenin
    Thevenin
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    2handers are already almost unseen in PvP. I'm still seeing a couple of DW, who probably haven't yet understood how OP s&b is.
    With the way weapon skills work in this game, they're going to have to do a MUCH better job at balancing if they don't want to end up with everyone having the same 5 abilities slotted.
  • Koensol
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    2H is not as worthless as the OP is saying. I play a bursty single target nightblade as an alt and the synergy is quite good. And its brawler ability is very useful for my templar tank's AoE setup.

    - Critical charge is an amazing opener when morphed to deal more damage based on distance. Casting reaper's mark before you charge will up its dmg and thst of everything that comes after. Or you can use rally. Whatever you prefer.
    - When jumped in you use shadowy disguise and stun the enemy with veiled strike. The enemy's armor is now pretty much ravaged + he is stunned for aboit 3/4 sec.
    - Now is the time to use uppercut, morphed to wrecking blow. You can choose to immediately pop it or first KD the enemy with a power attack (Which can be done quickly by not holding the mouse button all the way through). Either way I can freely cast it and I actually like the damage. Finally it gives my next attack even more power.
    - Now you can use whatever powerfull attack you want to finish off your opponent. I like to use killer's blade for the added heal it gives when you kill someone. I also like to use the incapacitating strike ultimate from assassination to finish the job.

    If you want to destroy a mob/story boss/player quickly, this is a very viable setup. I have used it and it is not garbage at all.
    Edited by Koensol on April 23, 2014 7:16AM
  • Koensol
    Koensol
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    Double post

    Edited by Koensol on April 23, 2014 7:13AM
  • steinernein
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    The problem with 2H is that most people don't maximize Arcane Fighter and often use heavy attacks which, for 2H, is a solid DPS loss -- it's very un-intuitive. Basically, if you want to be competitive with 2H currently you'll want a fire enchant or something with the enchant cool down trait couple it with something like Molten Armaments or Critical Surge then use a light attack cancel into something else then light attack.
  • Dinapuff
    Dinapuff
    Stop posting comments with no proof.

    Go to the banished cells second boss or any fight that lets you sit on the boss for an extended amount of time.

    POST THE NUMBERS YOU GET.
    Edited by Dinapuff on April 23, 2014 8:56AM
  • Reavan
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    In straight up dps from light and heavy dw wins.
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/light-attacks-vs-heavy-and-igneous-weapons/

    This shows that 2h falls far behind in most situations.
    Arcane fighter??? Dw has TWO enchant slots do not forget.
    I love crirical charge from 2h.
    If you spam it, its good for damage but drains alot of stam.
    Thinking of leveling dw up.
  • ZoM_Head
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    I went for a bow for as my secondary for my dual wielding Khajiit with medium armour.

    Got bored crouching to get that extra sneak attack, so i respected him for two handed, he is a high HP and Stamina build.

    Went for two handed for secondary, man it feels so slow compared to dual wielding and not dealing enough damage....with medium armour your HP can drop quickly in a mob....

    Today, i respected him again and went back to the bow. Id rather have a bow to pick off those mobs around the boss and switch to dual wielding and take out the boss fast and deadly, than to stand with medium armour and swing a big battleaxe on everyone.

    If two handed had something similar to dual wielding, such as bleeding damage heals you (blood craze), i would had kept it. I do love two handed weapons, but on this medium armour Khajiit....its not working out.

    PS: It does not deal that much more damage than dual wielding IMO...
    mDKs still need a lot of love!
  • jaif13
    jaif13
    Soul Shriven
    Not saying 2H is balanced, but I thought the main point was AoE damage and tanking with the splash passive and cleave morph. Also, charge uses stamina, saving magicka for more useful abilities.

    I completely agree on the sets/bonuses aspect, though. I'm sick and tired of developers,ignoring that. With bow you are trading an extra bonus for range, but a melee weapon? They need to give back something for the lost bonus.
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    Axer wrote: »
    Armitas wrote: »
    Are you sure you are using them right? I'm usually getting over 500 single target dps, though I am using some longer combos then those listed in that thread.
    (I would probably get more if I was set up for dps and started optimizing my attacks.)

    Being neither of us mentioned our levels, builds or weapons used, any such comparions is pretty foolish.

    Same rank as you, VR5, Purple V4 2 hander, but otherwise I'm built around tanking rather than dps.

    I'm undecided, until I get optimized for dps, as to whether it's under powered..so no comment on that. But I do know it's not terrible atm...so long as you avoid the slow animation. If you are going through the full animations I imagine it would be pretty bad.
    Edited by Armitas on April 23, 2014 1:34PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Gisgo
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    2h is fine you must be doing something wrong.
    I have BOTH dual wield and two handed maxed out, and they are pretty well balanced, to the point i wouldnt be able to pick "the best" between them.
    Edited by Gisgo on April 23, 2014 1:21PM
  • Zargorius
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    2H as AoE weapon works very well and Carve is the ultimate Ultimate generator (see what I did there?).
    Critical Charge is excellent in PVP and whoever says immobilise is worthless has no idea what he's talking about.
    Reverse Slash bad? Have you read the 300% damage increase part? It's a bloody good finisher.
    Uppercut is very cool, unfortunately it's long windup time makes it very difficult to use.
    I agree with the 2H wielders being at a disadvantage in regards to enchants/sets but it's the same for bows or staves so I'm not complaining about it.
    I have a S&B Templar and he excels at single target damage but when it's AoE time guess what he uses?
    Edited by Zargorius on April 23, 2014 1:42PM
    Honor is a dead man's code.
  • Gisgo
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    Uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak -> uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak...

    Its almost OP.
  • RockmSockm
    Magika based skills wipe the floor with stamina.

    The only decent stamina line is 1hand and shield. 2hand is far behind in dps, with some marginally usefull skills and dw's skills are all broke/worthless.
  • Drathmar
    Drathmar
    Gisgo wrote: »
    Uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak -> uppercut -> heavy attack -> shadowcloak...

    Its almost OP.

    For stunlocking a single target yes. For actual DPS (damage per second) it's really really bad. And once you get to endgame, raids, craglorn, etc you will want to put out high amounts of consistent damage (AKA DPS) rather than short bursts of damage from uppercut and heavy attacks from a 2h weapon.

    Does it work solo? Yes. Is it a good AoE weapon due to Carve being amazing for ultimate generation? Yes. Is it a good ST DPS weapon? Hell no.

    But then, maybe the weapon was designed like that. Maybe it was designed to be more about stunlocking and AoE DPS rather than good ST DPS.

    Even with the combo's someone posted (where you can get a heavy attack into a light attack into an ability all at once) it's DPS (not raw damage) is lower than other weapons.

    Not to mention Rapid Strikes is better because AFAIK each hit can proc enchants, plus it seems the last hit hits twice (at least according to floating combat text). Also Rapid Strikes does more base damage than uppercut anyway even if I am wrong about the last hit hitting twice which may be a display bug in FCT. Makes it an all around better skill for DPS either way.
  • Gisgo
    Gisgo
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    Drathmar wrote: »
    For stunlocking a single target yes. For actual DPS (damage per second) it's really really bad.

    Which makes sense, as i already said, you need to pick between CC and a strong DPS, you cant have both at the same time.
    Two handed is perfectly effective, and that is what matters.

    If you want more dps dual wield.

    Edited by Gisgo on April 23, 2014 6:22PM
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