Banning rights.

GossiTheDog

No. I'm paying for an accountable company, under legal contract we've agreed to, to ban players. If players are banning players, I will unsubscribe.

Doowie

I saw the first post and then I facepalmed.

I kept on reading the Original Posters comments and then I ended up doing this:

i.imgur.com/jiJWw.gif

starkerealm

Randazzo wrote: »

"Kyosji wrote: »

Apparently you don't understand that a lot of people have chat disabled. I've been accused of botting multiple times and even had to speak to GMs about it. Reason why? They tried to talk to me in public chat, and I have that disabled.

You cannot prove, as a regular player, who is a bot and who isn't in all cases. If you think anything otherwise, you're not bright.

Hey, it's the bot apologist!

I'm totally against the idea in this particular thread, but why is it everywhere I go I see you defending the botpeople?

Don't answer, I don't really care why. Defending bots makes you a bot.

I like this logic. "I turn off zone so I don't have to see the goldseller spam." "Therefore you must be a goldseller!"

Not because it makes sense, but it exemplifies what's wrong with this idea at a fundamental level. "Someone doesn't want to see the idiocy in zone!? Inconceivable!" Also it amuses me.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Randazzo wrote: »

"Kyosji wrote: »

Apparently you don't understand that a lot of people have chat disabled. I've been accused of botting multiple times and even had to speak to GMs about it. Reason why? They tried to talk to me in public chat, and I have that disabled.

You cannot prove, as a regular player, who is a bot and who isn't in all cases. If you think anything otherwise, you're not bright.

Hey, it's the bot apologist!

I'm totally against the idea in this particular thread, but why is it everywhere I go I see you defending the botpeople?

Don't answer, I don't really care why. Defending bots makes you a bot.

Thanks for the perfect example of why players shouldnt be making these decisions.

UrielX

Vyshan wrote: »

This couldn't work for both legal and public relation reasons.

There's other concerns, as well. i.e. a house guest jumps on your computer while you're in the bathroom or your account becomes compromised.

This has been tried before, though. I, and thousands of others over the years, did serve as volunteer Customer Service during the EverQuest era. Eventually, you'll end up picking up one or two people who actually turn out to be malicious, and all manner of problems arise. A lot of our abilities/power had to be stripped after a while, because that's just what ends up happening.

Humans, who're not legally bound to contract with penalties (i.e. being fired), have a tendency to become power hungry.

I was in the guide program too! Honestly we couldn't do much, I spent most of my time telling people I couldn't tell them about quests, and handing out summoned food for trivia contests.

I agree with you 100% though.
Simply for legal reasons alone a company isn't going to let an unpaid/untrained person have agency powers.

Kyosji

Randazzo wrote: »

"Kyosji wrote: »

Apparently you don't understand that a lot of people have chat disabled. I've been accused of botting multiple times and even had to speak to GMs about it. Reason why? They tried to talk to me in public chat, and I have that disabled.

You cannot prove, as a regular player, who is a bot and who isn't in all cases. If you think anything otherwise, you're not bright.

Hey, it's the bot apologist!

I'm totally against the idea in this particular thread, but why is it everywhere I go I see you defending the botpeople?

Don't answer, I don't really care why. Defending bots makes you a bot.

Apparently you don't read what I actually write. I don't defend bots, I have said multiple times they should be banned. The thing I AM defending are normal people who keep getting accused of botting because of butthurt people who assume that just because they attack the same thing over and over, they MUST be a bot. Why do I get pissed at this? When I have to explain myself multiple times to a GM that comes to me checking if I'm a real person or not, it becomes harassing. I just ask people to use more sense before reporting every player they see as a bot.

Also, I don't appreciate you accusing me of being a bot.

LadyDestiny

ZOS has no way to tell what a persons character is through a computer screen. Too many unknowns in trying to select the "select few" to have this kind of authority. Just imagine if you ever got on the bad side of one of these people, or worse yet your guild just slaughtered their guild in pvp....lol Bad things would come of this O_0

Tweek

Carde wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tweek wrote: »

Carde wrote: »

There's that Psijic Order reward some people have been asking for! The ability to ban people. Great idea.

NO

Just because you're in som "Psyijic Order" doesn't give you the right to ban people......this would be a great way to kill the game.

I believe that was what you Earth beings call "sarcasm."

At least someone understands. +Awesome for you.

Really sorry...didn't know you were being sarcastic.

Plus awesome for you lol

Doowie

Zenimax will never allow players to ban others. Players will only be ever to report those who they believe to be cheating/botting.

It's like giving a monkey the keys to your car and tell it to drive down the motorway without hitting any other cars!

JessieColt

toddcanniffub17_ESO wrote: »

Because I am a player that would use it to do good, not a troll who's going to ban someone because they asked where to buy a mount or where the bank is.

I do Customer Support for another game creator. And personally, the very LAST person I would ever believe or trust is the person who makes claims like you have.

We had one user who went around claiming they were one of the creators of the game and that if people did something in the game, they would be rewarded after xxx number of days.

That same user then sent in a support request claiming they bought something in the game but didn't get it, so could we please give them the stuff. We asked for proof.

The "proof" that the user provided? A reply that said "Can't you trust me, I am an honest person and would never try to cheat anyone".

yeah, right!!!!

No freaking way in hell should any user, ever, anywhere, ever be given administrative rights in a game.

You do NOT work for the game company. You do NOT have training in company policies regarding how to deal with these issues.

If you were given the power, the company would open themselves up to all kinds of legal issues with what you are requesting.

The first moronic user that managed to ban my account, or even kick me from the game, would result in the game company getting a lawsuit filed against them.

I paid for this game, I am playing this game within the ToS, and no peon user should ever be given the power to affect my gameplay in the manner you are asking for.

So no, you are absolutely wrong to ask for those powers. You will never, ever, be given those powers, and any company stupid enough to do so would find themselves out of business so fast that they would think an F5 tornado wrapped in a Cat 5 hurricane just hit their offices without warning.

Yasha

toddcanniffub17_ESO wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

toddcanniffub17_ESO wrote: »

Because I am a player that would use it to do good, not a troll who's going to ban someone because they asked where to buy a mount or where the bank is.

How do you determine that people farming a boss in a (public?) dungeon should be banned? How do you determine which players are bots? Where do you draw the line about banning someone in chat?

If you can't distinguish botters from players you need to see your nearest eye specialist. GO OBAMACARE!!! <oozing with sarcasm>

It was a serious question, how do you determine these things? I see 5 players in dungeons farming bosses in every dungeon I go to are they bots?

Original question:

((How do you determine that people farming a boss in a (public?) dungeon should be banned? How do you determine which players are bots? Where do you draw the line about banning someone in chat?))

Gelston

This is a bad idea. Especially when/if a player starts being stupid with the power to ban. The company will be liable for it, and at least with company employees they can sort of stand behind their decision. Only employees with signed contracts should have this ability.

I played another MMO once where they gave certain players "Sheriff" badges. They couldn't ban players or do anything by themselves, but two of them together could send a player into a jail cell for 1 hour. Supposedly it was only supposed to be done to trolls and the like, but it quickly became abused. Anyone that disagreed with them or called them out on things would end up in a jail cell for two hours. Sometimes they'd even wait for you to get out and send you back. This system lasted for a very short time.

I am all for empowering players to assist other players, but they should never be given disciplinary powers.

starkerealm

Gelston wrote: »

This is a bad idea. Especially when/if a player starts being stupid with the power to ban. The company will be liable for it, and at least with company employees they can sort of stand behind their decision. Only employees with signed contracts should have this ability.

I played another MMO once where they gave certain players "Sheriff" badges. They couldn't ban players or do anything by themselves, but two of them together could send a player into a jail cell for 1 hour. Supposedly it was only supposed to be done to trolls and the like, but it quickly became abused. Anyone that disagreed with them or called them out on things would end up in a jail cell for two hours. Sometimes they'd even wait for you to get out and send you back. This system lasted for a very short time.

I am all for empowering players to assist other players, but they should never be given disciplinary powers.

Was that Fallen Earth?

Anyway, I've actually seen this get out of hand on a forum, first hand. You have a mod who nominates their buddy, because they're their friend, and they can be trusted. Only, their friend is a total jack***. So, now you've got a member of the staff that's out of control, and being covered by another. If you don't see this happening first hand, it is really easy to miss, and you can quickly end up with a solid cadre of problem members who will go to bat for each other. They stop being enforcement and simply become empowered trolls on their own.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

Vyndetta wrote: »

So, has anyone actually seen a GM in game? What about interacting with one in game that actually does something to fix your issue in game while you're on, like something you saw happen?

That alone could help with some of the issues we're having with bots and gold spammers. However, it doesn't seem ZOS actually has anyone in the game to see what's happening first hand. At least I haven't seen it so far... anyone else?

If ZOS can't even bother to put one of their own in the game to monitor things, why on earth would they give a player those abilities?

I would agree with this poster. Zenimax is not doing a very good job at policing their own game from within.

I also find it interesting the number of negative responses here.

..But then again I'm a firm believer that people breaking the rules; tend to keep tabs on the rule-makers in case they need to change their methods.

ebunts14_ESO

toddcanniffub17_ESO wrote: »

I feel a good way to deal with bots would be to give select players that prove themselves power to ban. I personally have reported 200+ botters and gold spammers. There are trolls that should not be given this power but people like me that just want to make bots go away could save the GM's a lot of time and trouble. Every time I go dungeon diving I see five or more that I could take care of while I'm in there.

Just a thought, though it will never happen because of toxic players that would ban someone who took their kill or got to a node before them.

1. Prove to me and everyone here that you are a fair and honest person and not just someone that is saying they are. Even if I knew you in real life I wont know who you really are. How many times do people turn out to be child molesters, rapists or murders and everyone that knew that person says they never thought that could happen.

2. As mentioned, I may leave my computer for few min. to use the restroom, answer the door (maybe I ordered pizza) or any number of reasons why I'm not at the keyboard. Even GM's generally give you several min. to reply. And then they don't ban you right away but instead just kick you or suspend you while they investigate you.

3. As mentioned about UO. That was one of the sadist days that I remember. And it happened because of a few people. Think it was like 7 that brought the suit. And every game that had a volunteer system in place put an end to it.

I had a player that tried to accuse me of being a bot, but I responded right away. If I didn't he would have reported me for being a bot and I would probably have my account suspended in a day or two until ZOS looks into it. If that player could ban, then yea, II would have been banned right then and there and lose one to two weeks or more of game play.

So to simply put it, NO, your idea is one of the worst you could have suggested.

Hestia

What this game needs, is more cowbell.

Doowie

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

toddcanniffub17_ESO wrote: »

Because I am a player that would use it to do good, not a troll who's going to ban someone because they asked where to buy a mount or where the bank is.

I do Customer Support for another game creator. And personally, the very LAST person I would ever believe or trust is the person who makes claims like you have.

We had one user who went around claiming they were one of the creators of the game and that if people did something in the game, they would be rewarded after xxx number of days.

That same user then sent in a support request claiming they bought something in the game but didn't get it, so could we please give them the stuff. We asked for proof.

The "proof" that the user provided? A reply that said "Can't you trust me, I am an honest person and would never try to cheat anyone".

yeah, right!!!!

No freaking way in hell should any user, ever, anywhere, ever be given administrative rights in a game.

You do NOT work for the game company. You do NOT have training in company policies regarding how to deal with these issues.

If you were given the power, the company would open themselves up to all kinds of legal issues with what you are requesting.

The first moronic user that managed to ban my account, or even kick me from the game, would result in the game company getting a lawsuit filed against them.

I paid for this game, I am playing this game within the ToS, and no peon user should ever be given the power to affect my gameplay in the manner you are asking for.

So no, you are absolutely wrong to ask for those powers. You will never, ever, be given those powers, and any company stupid enough to do so would find themselves out of business so fast that they would think an F5 tornado wrapped in a Cat 5 hurricane just hit their offices without warning.

I agree with Jessie on this one as I also too work for a game developer, so Jessie hit the nail right on the head with what they wrote here.

JessieColt

The admins/GM's do not need to be "in game" to see what is happening. They have access to server logs that show activity for every single user in the game.

As was asked above, how DO you know that the account/user is a bot? As a user, you do not.

As a user, I could be farming that boss for XP, loot drops, whatever reason, and IMHO, it is none of the business of any other player. Full stop.

If farming a boss is against the ToS, then let the Game Company deal with it. Not any user.

As long as what they are doing does not interfere with, or impede, your playing the game, what another account does is no one elses business.

Node farmers ARE interfering with and impeding someone elses game play by unfairly harvesting those nodes and preventing others who are not using a bot from legitimately harvesting.

Report the players doing it. No harm comes from a report. If it is a legit player farming the boss looking for a rare drop from them, or whatever, then they should be safe from rash actions against their account.

If they ARE a bot, then reporting them will allow the Game Developers to gather sufficient proof to actually ban their account completely.

In the end, it isn't up to you and me (the users) to decide who's account should be actioned.

Gelston

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

2. As mentioned, I may leave my computer for few min. to use the restroom, answer the door (maybe I ordered pizza) or any number of reasons why I'm not at the keyboard. Even GM's generally give you several min. to reply. And then they don't ban you right away but instead just kick you or suspend you while they investigate you.

Once upon a time I was a GM in a game, we'd give someone up to an hour to respond. And this is something that is important too. Because during that hour, you are logging everything the player does and you are sending them messages. So when it comes time to ban them, you have pretty much undeniable proof. They can appeal of course, but that generally doesn't matter. The more time you sit there and watch them with no responses, the deeper the hole gets.

This is something I think a player would not do. They aren't getting paid to sit there and monitor someone for 30 minutes to an hour. I'm sure people would do it completely for free, and do a good job, but I wouldn't place a lot into it.

Grimth

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »

Vyndetta wrote: »

So, has anyone actually seen a GM in game? What about interacting with one in game that actually does something to fix your issue in game while you're on, like something you saw happen?

That alone could help with some of the issues we're having with bots and gold spammers. However, it doesn't seem ZOS actually has anyone in the game to see what's happening first hand. At least I haven't seen it so far... anyone else?

If ZOS can't even bother to put one of their own in the game to monitor things, why on earth would they give a player those abilities?

I would agree with this poster. Zenimax is not doing a very good job at policing their own game from within.

I also find it interesting the number of negative responses here.

..But then again I'm a firm believer that people breaking the rules; tend to keep tabs on the rule-makers in case they need to change their methods.

So I'm a ruler breaker because I disagree with giving someone in game the ability to ban someone account? Power corrupts. SWTOR a couple years ago had an issue were one faction took over the other base and was camping it. One of the people playing the game whose base was being camping new a GM and the GM did a GM post in game about stopping it because it was against the rules. BW/EA denied it and banned anyone that said other wise till screen shots start showing up of what had happen. BW/EA unbanned those effected and "internal handed the issue." People will abuse power and those they think they won't will be the first too.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

Didn't say YOU were; but feel free to point yourself out.

TRG_Ebrasu

Not a great idea. You say you would not abuse it, but you would, at some point.

That being said, they do need to get some GM's in game. I have never seen one or even seen one post in chat, ever.

Doowie

@Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

I take it this is your first MMORPG and you've never worked in the gaming industry or an industry where you have to enforce rules, policies and procedures to keep a customer/civilian happy.

Lets turn the tables and say, you were playing normally, but because you were deciding one day to farm materials for your crafting, a player who believed that the rules should be enforced and they are never wrong and what they do Zenimax will back them up 100% ... this guy sees you farming and because you are relaxing, got some music playing, got a movie playing on the other monitor and with the way chat is you ignore it 99% of the time ... he decided to ban your account.

How would you feel, that you have people running around with NO CLUE of how to identify a botter against a normal player who is farming. You don't have access to their chat logs to see if they are chatting to others while farming. You can't see their generic logs of how much they've collected within the last 24 hours and what mobs or quests they've killed/completed.

It's not about being right or wrong here, it's about giving people who are not a paid employee of Zenimax the rights to remove access to their servers. You do know that you would also be personally held responsible if someone was to take legal action against Zenimax right, if you were the one who banned someone without knowledge/training and this was to stand within a court of law, which would considering the outrageous requests the Original Poster is asking for.

But hey bring it and lets see how the European Comission of Consumer Rights would be drooling at the mouth from a nice pay check from a beefy lawsuit

babylon

Never, ever, give players power to ban.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

Doowie ...Typical.

"Yeah you DO that...& I'll SUE your A** for wrongful prosecution.."

I suggest you re-read my post; I was agreeing with ZoS oversight. Not player; & was pointing out how many scammers keep tabs on the "law" so they can rout around it.

...& You're right, I've never worked in "an industry where you have to enforce rules, policies and procedures to keep a customer/civilian happy."

I was only a marine combat medic for 14 years, & now a paramedic & volunteer fireman.

DO continue to tell me how I have a poor perception of rules, wrongdoers, & or legal implications for action or non-action.

Kyosji

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »

Doowie ...Typical.

"Yeah you DO that...& I'll SUE your A** for wrongful prosecution.."

I suggest you re-read my post; I was agreeing with ZoS oversight. Not player; & was pointing out how many scammers keep tabs on the "law" so they can rout around it.

...& You're right, I've never worked in "an industry where you have to enforce rules, policies and procedures to keep a customer/civilian happy."

I was only a marine combat medic for 14 years, & now a paramedic & volunteer fireman.

DO continue to tell me how I have a poor perception of rules, wrongdoers, & or legal implications for action or non-action.

You have a poor perception of rules, wrongdoers, & or legal implications for action or non-action.

Doowie

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »

"I was only a marine combat medic for 14 years, & now a paramedic & volunteer fireman."

And I flew to the moon But hey whatever floats your boat.

But you did agree with the Original Poster and you criticized Zenimax for their support.

"Zenimax is not doing a very good job at policing their own game from within.

I also find it interesting the number of negative responses here."

Yet you don't even know what they are doing behind the scenes

Oh well, lets go back to enjoying the rest of the forum drama, but first I need a coffee and a smoke. So please continue in the next 5 to 10 minutes. Also I don't want to end up being suspended or banned from the forums for going over the top with some of the people in this community and their lack of knowledge of how games and the gaming industry works.

/kiss & hugs

Oh and stop quoting Ghostbusters 1:

"Yeah you DO that...& I'll SUE your A** for wrongful prosecution.." ... you are not cool enough to quote Ghostbusters!

You may also want to review the European consumer laws as well, which you can read through here: http://www.eu-consumer-law.org/

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

I'd say I hit pretty close to home there. You have a nice day as well.

KittyMauge

No no no no no!

This is a very bad idea! I know a game where people can report spam other players and can get those people chat banned. NO!

It's very easy to abuse, to grief other players.

GMs in game that can ban people like the gold sellers? Yes please!
Players that can ban people for whatever stupid reason? Heck no!

Gelston

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »

I was only a marine combat medic for 14 years, & now a paramedic & volunteer fireman.

Oh yeah? Awesome! What country?