Asking for Damage Meter

fosley_ESO

Recount, ACT, etc. aren't just a shiny number to stack up against each other. They tell you who stood in bad, how much bad they stood in, who died, what killed them, who was (or wasn't) healing them, who was attacking the wrong targets, etc.

If you're a terrible player, we'll all see it, because you'll be dead every single fight, and having no parsers won't let you get carried through everything. If you're underperforming, but actually trying, it's a bit harder to tell just by watching the fights. But a combat parser (that has access to your combat data) makes it much easier to immediately spot the problem, tell you what the problem is, and let you correct it. Or let you figure out your own problems.

They also allow an individual to judge their own worth relative to other people. Combined with gear addons, you can look to see if the guy is doing way more damage because he just has better gear, or because he's playing better. If he's playing better, you can use the combat log to get an idea of what he's doing that you're not. And you can do it without forcing him to hand-hold you through the process, and without him even having an addon installed.

As for gear check addons or combat parsers "ruining" anything. . . just no. If you were constantly getting kicked out of groups for low dps, it's because you were a terrible player doing grossly sub-par damage. Not because of anything else. There are a few people who will just be mean, or snobbish, or whatever, and kick you for no good reason at all. But the vast majority of people will carry you through while you're doing half the damage you should be without complaint. Especially when we're so over-geared we could solo the place and your existence is irrelevant to our run.

If you're a bad player, the fix isn't to remove the addons that let us easily see you're a bad player. The fix is for you to become a better player. Addons like combat parsers are one useful tool to let you do that.

HBK

Cogo wrote: »

I say again, the SKILL behind "damage" has nothing to do with any meters.

Skill is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. With a DPS meter, a skilled group will be able to control its DPS output better than without.

Kililin

I wonder why this really needs to be explained, but here you go:

The advantage is not in the final number of damage done or dps, but in the tool empowering me to compare skills, skillsets and item configurations. Especially because skills/stats in this game not always do what they say and when they do their behavior is often not that logical.

So i am at an advantage, of course that advantage is smaller if you are using online guides, they are mostly written by persons using these addons. If it is not available said persons will still analyze, with e.g. stopwatches and everyone will need to use their guides to compete.

Loligo

anaxagoras23b14_ESO wrote: »

If the tank takes hits like a porcelain doll but it doesn't matter because the mob won't look at him anyways or the healer isn't healing enough to make a difference then everyone can tell. A DPS parser just sort of levels the playing field.

In theory, you'd be correct.

In practice, for as long as I've played MMOs (going back to UO and EQ), people who spend much time parsing other people's DPS have absolutely, universally, 100% of the time been complete d-bags that I haven't wanted to have around.

I'd be very happy with there being no support whatsoever for parsers.

Cogo

Funny, I must be seeing things wrong, thinking I understood when I don't.

When I do dungeons/instances I notice where we fail. The group often discuss how to succed. If someone isn't doing enough damage, it shows. Don't need a meter to tell you that?

When you play without a damagemeter, any addons for that matter, you learn to read your surrounding and get a feeling what is wrong or not.

A damage meter will not teach you what to do. It only shows you what a certain skill or your performance is doing from a calculators point of view.

Unless you missed it, ESO is about more then that.

I wount be a *** and say that you are wrong, but I stand fast in the fact that you can learn where the damage comes from. Both as the player and the team around them. Is damage a problem? Well...lets figure out another tactics or how to improve it? This is one of the fun things in ESO

Stravok

The issues is not if it needed but wanted. What is the big deal to have it in game? It is not like this is going to break anything anymore than there already is. Damage meters have helped many guilds in the past narrow down where their problems were and than fixed it and boom started progressing again. Properly used it is a great asset to have on your side.

For those that say "crunch numbers" why the hell would I want to do all that when a simple addon can do that much faster thus keeping me playing the game more. Min/max is what ALL MMOs are about to be the most powerful character you can be and continue to get better and better. These meters help that and also you can see what other peeps are doing and get ideas from them and vice versa.

For those who don't want this... well, don't use it!!!! What is the problem???

Jeremy

Stravok wrote: »

The issues is not if it needed but wanted. What is the big deal to have it in game? It is not like this is going to break anything anymore than there already is. Damage meters have helped many guilds in the past narrow down where their problems were and than fixed it and boom started progressing again. Properly used it is a great asset to have on your side.

For those that say "crunch numbers" why the hell would I want to do all that when a simple addon can do that much faster thus keeping me playing the game more. Min/max is what ALL MMOs are about to be the most powerful character you can be and continue to get better and better. These meters help that and also you can see what other peeps are doing and get ideas from them and vice versa.

For those who don't want this... well, don't use it!!!! What is the problem???

The problem isn't rather I will be expected to use them or not. It's the obnoxious atmosphere they help create.

I'd rather just not deal with the annoying e-peen contests or the constant number boasting or belittling. Not to mention I'm of the mind that these meters rarely produce better players and have a tendency to narrow-down the gameplay.

I think this game is better off without them.

HBK

Cogo wrote: »

Well...lets figure out another tactics or how to improve it? This is one of the fun things in ESO

I never, ever said that using damage meters was more fun than figuring out stuff "by ourselves".

I don't doubt it could be for some players. It's not for me. My point was that, fun or not fun, such tools are so powerful than they will eventually become required the moment they are allowed (given enough time). Their alleged optionality is a sham.

Amfijakerwb17_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Honestly, how in the world can this be a competitive mmo on the market without the ability to track group dps and hps. Why did they take the time to release this game.

I fail to see what value these meters bring to any game.

If you are doing good damage you should be able to tell without needing some program to tell you. Not to mention they do not take into account a multitude of other factors that are just as or more important than how much damage someone is doing per second.

So they aren't even a good indicator of success anyway. They are just a silly way for players to brag or demean others - or falsely judge the effectiveness of their character.

Agree 100%

If you need a damage meter to see if others does their job...then you have no place in instances. Keep to public dungeons thats mostly clear.

Unless you have understood it, ESO IS NOT WOW! The encounters here are different. Best dps may be the worst player even.

Teamwork, tactics, overcome and adapt to different situations.....thats your REAL "damage meter"

Well wouldnt a high DPS during all these situation be "the real damage meter? Thats is usually why some people are just better than others, they can adapt to the bossfights while maintaining high DPS. If you survive everything, while doing 20 DPS your not really contributing in any way.

achimb16_ESO3

Amfijakerwb17_ESO wrote: »

If you survive everything, while doing 20 DPS your not really contributing in any way.

Tell that any healer build with high survivability and he'll let you die happily.
So NO, I don't want and need that WoW [censored] in ESO.

Shaun98ca2

Amfijakerwb17_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Honestly, how in the world can this be a competitive mmo on the market without the ability to track group dps and hps. Why did they take the time to release this game.

I fail to see what value these meters bring to any game.

If you are doing good damage you should be able to tell without needing some program to tell you. Not to mention they do not take into account a multitude of other factors that are just as or more important than how much damage someone is doing per second.

So they aren't even a good indicator of success anyway. They are just a silly way for players to brag or demean others - or falsely judge the effectiveness of their character.

Agree 100%

If you need a damage meter to see if others does their job...then you have no place in instances. Keep to public dungeons thats mostly clear.

Unless you have understood it, ESO IS NOT WOW! The encounters here are different. Best dps may be the worst player even.

Teamwork, tactics, overcome and adapt to different situations.....thats your REAL "damage meter"

Well wouldnt a high DPS during all these situation be "the real damage meter? Thats is usually why some people are just better than others, they can adapt to the bossfights while maintaining high DPS. If you survive everything, while doing 20 DPS your not really contributing in any way.

I say as long as the DPS is fighting they are going to contribute. What your doing is what EVERYBODY with a DPS meter is GOING to do. SCRUTINIZE everybodies DPS.

So after a say a TRASH pull your DPS didn't do as good of DPS as you EXPECT them to do. Well now you decide this player is trash and boot them.

Did you look at what they were doing during combat NO. SO they were busy dealing with more mobs than they should have blocking, interrupting, CCing, dodging and were the backbone on your group but all you saw was a #.

THIS is why people DONT want group DPS parsers. You can parse your OWN DPS and get into a group that parse theirs as well and use a 3rd party program to analyze the data. But that's NOT what people are looking for. They want to scrutinize peoples DPS in pugs.

To say otherwise is a flat out lie because everything you SAY you want to be able to do YOU CAN with parsing YOUR OWN DPS with people doing the same.

PERIOD

Amfijakerwb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Amfijakerwb17_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Honestly, how in the world can this be a competitive mmo on the market without the ability to track group dps and hps. Why did they take the time to release this game.

I fail to see what value these meters bring to any game.

If you are doing good damage you should be able to tell without needing some program to tell you. Not to mention they do not take into account a multitude of other factors that are just as or more important than how much damage someone is doing per second.

So they aren't even a good indicator of success anyway. They are just a silly way for players to brag or demean others - or falsely judge the effectiveness of their character.

Agree 100%

If you need a damage meter to see if others does their job...then you have no place in instances. Keep to public dungeons thats mostly clear.

Unless you have understood it, ESO IS NOT WOW! The encounters here are different. Best dps may be the worst player even.

Teamwork, tactics, overcome and adapt to different situations.....thats your REAL "damage meter"

Well wouldnt a high DPS during all these situation be "the real damage meter? Thats is usually why some people are just better than others, they can adapt to the bossfights while maintaining high DPS. If you survive everything, while doing 20 DPS your not really contributing in any way.

I say as long as the DPS is fighting they are going to contribute. What your doing is what EVERYBODY with a DPS meter is GOING to do. SCRUTINIZE everybodies DPS.

So after a say a TRASH pull your DPS didn't do as good of DPS as you EXPECT them to do. Well now you decide this player is trash and boot them.

Did you look at what they were doing during combat NO. SO they were busy dealing with more mobs than they should have blocking, interrupting, CCing, dodging and were the backbone on your group but all you saw was a #.

THIS is why people DONT want group DPS parsers. You can parse your OWN DPS and get into a group that parse theirs as well and use a 3rd party program to analyze the data. But that's NOT what people are looking for. They want to scrutinize peoples DPS in pugs.

To say otherwise is a flat out lie because everything you SAY you want to be able to do YOU CAN with parsing YOUR OWN DPS with people doing the same.

PERIOD

Jeeesus. Calm down. Where in my post did i talk about putting down other players and such? I get what you are talking about but to say that you overall DPS have NOTHING to do with your performance is just ignorant. Some players are able to do all the things you talked about while keeping higher DPS than others. Im actually myself against DPS meters but to say that high DPS isnt indicative of skill is just plain wrong.

HBK

Well technically for a healer yes DPS values are irrelevant.

Same could be said for a tank, to a lesser extent.

Edit : As long as we're talking trinities, which ESO does have, albeit in a softened form.

Talys

Actually i have a strange sensation of beeing convinced. As it so happens, i am a seasoned WoW player and i played a multitude of other mmo's before ESO, too. The veteran dungeons are quite diffucult here, althou with a fixed group and good coordination, even the speed runs with hard mode bosses were quite doable.
I think some kind of dps measuring tool is really important for me, because i like to really play my character at full potential and even if some ppl in this thread suggested it, without some measurement tool it is literally impossible to optimize a build. The other thing is thou, all the time i was really interested in how "well" im dooing compared to others because, i didn't want to slow my groups down. After all we dealt with that by just comparing numbers via teamspeak after every fight, and slowly gained a feeling for the strength and weaknesses of every class. At that point we noticed that in the end, only my own numbers are interesting again, because comparison depends on soooo many things, worst of all procluck (silver bolts can have a big impact) and numbers of ultimates used.
Thus for the improovement of myself, i only require my own numbers, and for judging the performance of other players, i just take a look on how often they stand in some crazy *** that kills them.

Islyn

Lemme guess. DK? lol. DB.

Feimerdre

You forgot something REALLY IMPORTANT in this very interesting discussion:
The implementation of damage meters for groups or raids leads inevitably to NERF!DIS! threads on forums. It is pretty sure that some people have nothing more and better to do to spot top dps players and compare them to other players or classes. Then the inevitable posts will come that state how bad one class compared to any other class is. Giving the player base a dps meter is just like handing out F1 cars to some junior highschool boys and girls and expect them to handle them with responsibility.

Kililin

Feimerdre wrote: »

You forgot something REALLY IMPORTANT in this very interesting discussion:
The implementation of damage meters for groups or raids leads inevitably to NERF!DIS! threads on forums. It is pretty sure that some people have nothing more and better to do to spot top dps players and compare them to other players or classes. Then the inevitable posts will come that state how bad one class compared to any other class is. Giving the player base a dps meter is just like handing out F1 cars to some junior highschool boys and girls and expect them to handle them with responsibility.

We already have the posts without group dps meters.

Feimerdre

Kililin wrote: »

We already have the posts without group dps meters.

You dont seem to get the point. Now this is a much subjective discussion based on nice stories (v10 DK Vamp facerolling whole raids in Cyrodiil, sorcs that solo 20 mobs at once and so on). Then this will be an all obejctive discussion based on actual numbers. I can understand that some people want right that - not for measuring their potential to get better, but to make posts trying to point the devs to nerf/boost certain things.
This CAN be helpful in the right hands - but maybe you should read my last sentence of my previous post again.

beowulfsshield

There seems to be some confusion regarding DPS meters in ESO, Some posts read like there are NO DPS meter addons for ESO, which isn't true at all. There are DPS meter addons for ESO, Recount for one, that allow you to see the damage that you are doing.

In my opinion, that is all that is needed in ESO.

Kililin

Feimerdre wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

We already have the posts without group dps meters.

You dont seem to get the point. Now this is a much subjective discussion based on nice stories (v10 DK Vamp facerolling whole raids in Cyrodiil, sorcs that solo 20 mobs at once and so on). Then this will be an all obejctive discussion based on actual numbers. I can understand that some people want right that - not for measuring their potential to get better, but to make posts trying to point the devs to nerf/boost certain things.
This CAN be helpful in the right hands - but maybe you should read my last sentence of my previous post again.

A raid parse from random_guild_03 does not prove anything, nor can it be the base for an objective discussion.

Bat Swarm stacking was not a perceived subjective problem, but a real one. (And backed by DPS parses from the vampires.)

Just because you think most of the playerbase are pubescent and unable to handle such tools, does not make it so.

Also balancing is necessity, not something despicable. Parses can provide data that is needed for sensible balancing.

UniscornScarebear

Obernach wrote: »

bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad TERRIBLE IDEA! you know why because then the community imposed DPS gate's will return just like they did for wow. and you know what if my dps is less than that guys who cares...

Quoted for truth.

Edit: I have a heal in my set up for when we run with a bad/new/tired/? healer, so my dps will drop because I'm saving people (including the healer) - meters like that will not show those things.

Kililin

I wonder if all of you really like to play with people that will get rid of you because you produce a smaller number than some other guy.
Dont get me wrong, i am trying to optimize what i do. But i would never, ever kick one of my friends or guild members because their number is smaller than mine.
If somebody would kick me because i put out to little dps, so be it, he was probably not the nicest person to spend my free time with in the first place.

And the persons who are acting like *** with group-dps-meter, probably are *** and act accordingly even without dps meter.
Such people exist, and without dps meter they will kick and abuse with any other reason, but you dont need to play with them. You can find like minded people, and spend some good times with them. Helping each other and so on.

Feimerdre

Kililin wrote: »

Just because you think most of the playerbase are pubescent and unable to handle such tools, does not make it so.

Also balancing is necessity, not something despicable. Parses can provide data that is needed for sensible balancing.

Well let me hand that argument back to you. If your statement is true it is also true vice versa: Just because you think most of the playerbase are adult and able to handle such tools, does not make it so.

Balancing is done by the devs. If they need the playerbase to aid them they will ask you.

Kililin

@Feimerdre‌

I think it is obvious that they need our help. At least where we can.
It is clear, they are clueless in the mmo part, see bots, totally imbalanced abilities, gold spam, etc.pp.
The game at its core is good, dont get me wrong.

Also because a tool can be misused, or the output can be misread or can be used by someone who is not able to interpret it is no argument against the tool.

EDIT: just to be sure: a dps meter exists, i can compare numbers with other players now, i can even see how much heal i had incoming, so i can judge or misjudge the healer now. These things are ingame, they can be used now. But are not, at least not too muczh.

Feimerdre

So if you already have it all just not to your comfort, why are we discussing here?

Kililin

I don't know the discussion swings from group-dps meters to dps-meters.
I already stated that i see why one could have a problem with group dps meters, but i want to keep my dps meter. (While http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/835426/#Comment_835426 still stands, i can not understand why one would like to play with people that show such asocial behavior as described in the arguments against it, i am ok with additionaly using it as an ***-meter)

You for an example said that discussion will be / is based on facts with a dps meter, therefor it is bad at least in the hands of the unwashed masses.
I think it should be available, it is now and it should be in the future.

Feimerdre

You are argueing a lot based on assumption you know that?
Lets stick to some facts if you dont mind.

1. fact: there is already an addon that gives out your dps and hps: Recount.
2. the TO demanded a group/raid dps meter to monitor other players' dps/hps
3. a tool that monitors other peoples' dps will lead to harrassing/bullying people for their obvious bad build or playstyle
4. a tool that monitors other peoples' dps will make information available to everyone in a raid whatever intention he may have

If you are interested in how you perform compared to others you can ASK them to install recount and share their values with you. This is all on a voluntary basis.
So far for the facts, if we can agree on them.

daniel.lagerbladb16_ESO

Yeah DPS meter, then more aoe, then gerarscore, then copy all bad *** from wow so we can run through instances without hesitate.
It's not DPS who kills bosses, it's a brain!!!

Kililin

Feimerdre wrote: »

You are argueing a lot based on assumption you know that?
Lets stick to some facts if you dont mind.

1. fact: there is already an addon that gives out your dps and hps: Recount.
2. the TO demanded a group/raid dps meter to monitor other players' dps/hps
3. a tool that monitors other peoples' dps will lead to harrassing/bullying people for their obvious bad build or playstyle
4. a tool that monitors other peoples' dps will make information available to everyone in a raid whatever intention he may have

If you are interested in how you perform compared to others you can ASK them to install recount and share their values with you. This is all on a voluntary basis.
So far for the facts, if we can agree on them.

3. is not a fact it is an assumption
Maybe it is based on personal experience, but in my experience this is not the case. I never felt harrassed or bullied. ( I was kicked from groups for my perceived bad performance with and without damage meter. )

the other 3 points are just facts, and neither good nor bad.

But as i said, i dont care if there is a group dps meter. A random group that doesnt put out enough dps to kill something in a reasonable amount of time i will just leave. My time is to precious for carrying strangers. a guild or friends group will provide their parses so we can work on getting better, together.

One provocative point:
I dont get it, as a tank or healer i have to put up with being accused of something like to less heal/damage reduction all the time, and DPS *** their pants if they can be measured in any way. (of course again talking random groups)

Kililin

daniel.lagerbladb16_ESO wrote: »

Yeah DPS meter, then more aoe, then gerarscore, then copy all bad *** from wow so we can run through instances without hesitate.
It's not DPS who kills bosses, it's a brain!!!

The bad *** from wow is playing via LFG and LFR tool with total strangers that dont give a *** about how you feel oder who you are.
Without talking to you even.