Asking for Damage Meter

Kililin

Jeremy wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

All I can say is Good Luck in Craglorn Trials if you think DPS meters aren't important =]

They aren't important.

Players do not need DPS meters to play effectively.

In my experience, all DPS meters do is act as a ruler for people's e-peen. They also encourage tunnel vision and an obsession for doing as much damage as possible at the expense of everything else.

So if anything, they encourage playing badly - with a lot of poorly-made characters running around who can do a couple more damage per second but die by everything and constantly scream for nerfs and the gameplay usually suffers as a result.

I have seen this happen on many games.

I remember games without DPS meters (like at all, not no group meter) and players did massively different amounts of damage. And you would know it, because it could be seen. If you had no friends helping you with playing your class, you could have fun waiting for the social spots in grind groups...

DPS meters can help you to get better.
They make it way easier to test things.

Please dont mix group DPS parsers in WoW with the usecases they have been invented for.
It is not all black and white.

Jeremy

Kililin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

All I can say is Good Luck in Craglorn Trials if you think DPS meters aren't important =]

They aren't important.

Players do not need DPS meters to play effectively.

In my experience, all DPS meters do is act as a ruler for people's e-peen. They also encourage tunnel vision and an obsession for doing as much damage as possible at the expense of everything else.

So if anything, they encourage playing badly - with a lot of poorly-made characters running around who can do a couple more damage per second but die by everything and constantly scream for nerfs and the gameplay usually suffers as a result.

I have seen this happen on many games.

I remember games without DPS meters (like at all, not no group meter) and players did massively different amounts of damage. And you would know it, because it could be seen. If you had no friends helping you with playing your class, you could have fun waiting for the social spots in grind groups...

DPS meters can help you to get better.
They make it way easier to test things.

Please dont mix group DPS parsers in WoW with the usecases they have been invented for.
It is not all black and white.

I remember games back before DPS meters too. Generally they were far more challenging and interesting to play, instead of this boring do as much damage as you can fast as you can mentality.

And in my opinion DPS meters are not a good tool to improve your character by. Playing the game and learning how to adapt to challenging situations is.

I'm not trying to mix anything. I just have nothing but scorn for DPS meters ^^ I think they have had a very negative impact on all games I have played that had them.

castigulaub17_ESO

iroc57b14_ESO wrote: »

I wish they would unlock the log like they did in beta. Monitoring your own dps is fine, but it doesn't motivate you to improve. Having always been a casual player, but still top tier dps, there's no excuse for anyone to not be able to pull their weight.

I've never looked down on anyone for having low dps, but I can't take them along for end game challenges if they're not willing to put some of the work in to improve their rotation. What's going going to happen right now under the current system, is organized groups are going to force people to have a meter, and to post their parses each fight in chat so that they can identify a weak link if there is one. Why make us go through the extra work? I hate to use WoW terminology (never even played it), but making it so that people never have to worry about having stupid low deeps is a little too "carebear" for me.

DPS meters = friendly competition.
Locked log = No competition

No competition = no progress

IF you don't like competing, fine. But you also don't get the bragging rights (which if you're a casual, should not affect you)

This in its entirety is why damage meters should never, ever be implemented in this game. Ever. Thank you for making the argument for people against damage meters.

Kililin

Jeremy wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

All I can say is Good Luck in Craglorn Trials if you think DPS meters aren't important =]

They aren't important.

Players do not need DPS meters to play effectively.

In my experience, all DPS meters do is act as a ruler for people's e-peen. They also encourage tunnel vision and an obsession for doing as much damage as possible at the expense of everything else.

So if anything, they encourage playing badly - with a lot of poorly-made characters running around who can do a couple more damage per second but die by everything and constantly scream for nerfs and the gameplay usually suffers as a result.

I have seen this happen on many games.

I remember games without DPS meters (like at all, not no group meter) and players did massively different amounts of damage. And you would know it, because it could be seen. If you had no friends helping you with playing your class, you could have fun waiting for the social spots in grind groups...

DPS meters can help you to get better.
They make it way easier to test things.

Please dont mix group DPS parsers in WoW with the usecases they have been invented for.
It is not all black and white.

I remember games back before DPS meters too. Generally they were far more challenging and interesting to play, instead of this boring do as much damage as you can fast as you can mentality.

And in my opinion DPS meters are not a good tool to improve your character by. Playing the game and learning how to adapt to challenging situations is.

I'm not trying to mix anything. I just have nothing but scorn for DPS meters ^^ I think they have had a very negative impact on all games I have played that had them.

But i think dps and general awareness and reacting to mobs are not mutually exclusive.
I think the latter two are more important, but you can excel in all of them.

I for one would rather know if i do more dps with using weakness to elements before some other spell or if its a net loss.
I want to know whats my most efficient single target spell
I want to know if using magelight makes sense dps-wise
I would like to check for myself which abilities make use of weapon damage and which crit rating applies to them
i would like to know how high a critical is

Especially with how vague lots of descriptions and mechanics in this game are.

You know i get that you are pissed off by the way general population uses dps meters, but its not the fault of the addon.
The addon makes things visible, like for example how dumb people are (do as much damage as you can fast as you can mentality=dumb) but the traits of these people are there with or without addon.
Gearscore is also bad, and a lot of other things.
Forcing a tank into heavy armor and SnB is also bad.
and so on, but this behavior exists, and to ban Damage parsers will do nothing about it.

drowadin

Thx ESO for not allowing this. Greatest news. Keep it up great wrk ESO team proud of you. Leanr to play the game hmhm lol A new concept. haha scrubs can't play with out gay meter.

Jeremy

Kililin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

All I can say is Good Luck in Craglorn Trials if you think DPS meters aren't important =]

They aren't important.

Players do not need DPS meters to play effectively.

In my experience, all DPS meters do is act as a ruler for people's e-peen. They also encourage tunnel vision and an obsession for doing as much damage as possible at the expense of everything else.

So if anything, they encourage playing badly - with a lot of poorly-made characters running around who can do a couple more damage per second but die by everything and constantly scream for nerfs and the gameplay usually suffers as a result.

I have seen this happen on many games.

I remember games without DPS meters (like at all, not no group meter) and players did massively different amounts of damage. And you would know it, because it could be seen. If you had no friends helping you with playing your class, you could have fun waiting for the social spots in grind groups...

DPS meters can help you to get better.
They make it way easier to test things.

Please dont mix group DPS parsers in WoW with the usecases they have been invented for.
It is not all black and white.

I remember games back before DPS meters too. Generally they were far more challenging and interesting to play, instead of this boring do as much damage as you can fast as you can mentality.

And in my opinion DPS meters are not a good tool to improve your character by. Playing the game and learning how to adapt to challenging situations is.

I'm not trying to mix anything. I just have nothing but scorn for DPS meters ^^ I think they have had a very negative impact on all games I have played that had them.

But i think dps and general awareness and reacting to mobs are not mutually exclusive.
I think the latter two are more important, but you can excel in all of them.

I for one would rather know if i do more dps with using weakness to elements before some other spell or if its a net loss.
I want to know whats my most efficient single target spell
I want to know if using magelight makes sense dps-wise
I would like to check for myself which abilities make use of weapon damage and which crit rating applies to them
i would like to know how high a critical is

Especially with how vague lots of descriptions and mechanics in this game are.

You know i get that you are pissed off by the way general population uses dps meters, but its not the fault of the addon.
The addon makes things visible, like for example how dumb people are (do as much damage as you can fast as you can mentality=dumb) but the traits of these people are there with or without addon.
Gearscore is also bad, and a lot of other things.
Forcing a tank into heavy armor and SnB is also bad.
and so on, but this behavior exists, and to ban Damage parsers will do nothing about it.

You are right in the sense it's how people use the tool rather the tool itself that is mostly to blame. So I can't challenge you on that point.

However, a player should be able to tell if they are doing good damage or not without needing to see a meter. As long as they have enough damage to defeat the enemy and be alive afterwards that's what ultimately matters. So a DPS meter is simply not needed and brings nothing of significant value in my opinion. Especially on a game like this which encourages variety in builds instead of trying to lock players into certain rotations and builds for maximum dps.

Basically what I am saying to you is that the bad this would bring greatly outweighs the good. It's a net negative, and will harm this game in a lot more ways than it would improve it.

Kililin

@Jeremy‌
But it exists?
I have 2 different damage parser installed.
I can exchange with other players about my results?

If you are refering to group dps meters, i will give you that, they most likely would do more harm than good.

Jeremy

Kililin wrote: »

@Jeremy‌
But it exists?
I have 2 different damage parser installed.
I can exchange with other players about my results?

If you are refering to group dps meters, i will give you that, they most likely would do more harm than good.

I recognize that they exist or will exist. I pointed that out in an earlier post. I just would prefer to keep them out of the official design in hopes to keep them as low-key as possible.

I'm glad we agree about group dps meters ^^

Absinthe

DPS meters are a good thing and I will tell you why. If you can't perform up to your groups expectations then hopefully they will HELP you get the needed DPS out of your character. If you pug (which I do) then every little bit of DPS you can or can not inflict can be the difference between a total wipe or completion. If you have an exceptional healer and tank then you can almost fall asleep at the keyboard. ("DPS check" encounters excluded of course.)

Having said that, your ability to stay alive is paramount and if you are dead your DPS falls to the wayside. I'd much rather have a smart player with lower DPS than the dead one that I have to waste soul gems upon because he gets too much aggro or waits for the red circles to heal him.

Dead DPS = no DPS.

Jeremy

Absinthe wrote: »

DPS meters are a good thing and I will tell you why. If you can't perform up to your groups expectations then hopefully they will HELP you get the needed DPS out of your character. If you pug (which I do) then every little bit of DPS you can or can not inflict can be the difference between a total wipe or completion. If you have an exceptional healer and tank then you can almost fall asleep at the keyboard. ("DPS check" encounters excluded of course.)

Having said that, your ability to stay alive is paramount and if you are dead your DPS falls to the wayside. I'd much rather have a smart player with lower DPS than the dead one that I have to waste soul gems upon because he gets too much aggro or waits for the red circles to heal him.

Dead DPS = no DPS.

If you feel this way I would ask you to reconsider your position about DPS meters being a good thing. Because if anything encourages players to care only for the DPS numbers instead of other important concerns such as staying alive it's these infernal meters and fearing someone will surpass or make fun of their numbers.

Absinthe

@Jeremy I feel that you misunderstand my stance or perhaps I did not state it clearly enough.

My point was and is this - if your DPS is low, for whatever reason, then that is an issue that can be easily corrected. If you are standing in red circles while wailing away at the boss...well ya can't fix stupid.

DPS meters are a tool to help you get better. As far as the elitism that comes from out of the usage of such tools, highly regrettable but a fact of life. Min/maxers should be more understanding and patient. They should also HELP people instead of insulting them. I suppose that was my main point.

Jeremy

Absinthe wrote: »

@Jeremy I feel that you misunderstand my stance or perhaps I did not state it clearly enough.

My point was and is this - if your DPS is low, for whatever reason, then that is an issue that can be easily corrected. If you are standing in red circles while wailing away at the boss...well ya can't fix stupid.

DPS meters are a tool to help you get better. As far as the elitism that comes from out of the usage of such tools, highly regrettable but a fact of life. Min/maxers should be more understanding and patient. They should also HELP people instead of insulting them. I suppose that was my main point.

I understood your position correctly I think. At least I seem to have after reading your latest post.

My point is these meters encourage players to continue standing in red circles while wailing away at the boss because they become more worried about getting their numbers as high as possible rather than staying alive. It causes them to take risks they wouldn't otherwise take. And I see this happen on every game I have played where dps meters are integrated into the normal gameplay.

Also I feel that players can improve and help one another without the assistance of dps meters. They are just unnecessary in my opinion, and not worth it. But I understand your point that they can be used to as a tool to improve. Unfortunately though they are rarely used for that purpose alone, and have all kinds of harmful side-effects that can hugely impact the game in very bad ways.

That's why I am asking you to re-think your position that they are good.

Absinthe

Then we agree to disagree.

While I truly respect your opinion on the matter I feel that you fail to realize that in order to maximize your DPS you should have proper positioning, per your class/abilities, while also being able to put out as much DPS as possible in a certain allotted amount of time. Many bosses have enrage timers - if you do not kill it before this threshold then everyone dies. Simple as that.

In that regard a DPS meter would assist you, yes?

edit - I should also state that I am mainly referring to veteran dungeons. If you have not run these, if you have please excuse my presumptuousness, then you will understand once you run a few. DPS is KING and even your tank should max his dps.

Jeremy

Absinthe wrote: »

Then we agree to disagree.

While I truly respect your opinion on the matter I feel that you fail to realize that in order to maximize your DPS you should have proper positioning, per your class/abilities, while also being able to put out as much DPS as possible in a certain allotted amount of time. Many bosses have enrage timers - if you do not kill it before this threshold then everyone dies. Simple as that.

In that regard a DPS meter would assist you, yes?

Fair enough. And I respect your opinion on the matter as well.

To answer your question: they could assist you, yes. But so could simply going outside and experimenting with your character. Or asking advice from a more experienced player who has impressed you.

My point is there are better ways to assist and help people than adding something that brings so many negatives to the game.

Adramelach

It seems to be fine now. I have addons that allow me to analyze my previous battle for dps, healing, incoming damage, etc. (Foundry Tactical Combat), so from the point of view of optimizing builds and understanding where your power and such are coming from, and good combos, all seems well in the world.

If you have a supportive, friendly guild or group that would like to help you, you can post all of that in a forum or chat, and have people critique you, pose ideas and suggestions and such, again all seems good.

You can even create a group or post in chat something like "please join us for X dungeon, but if you say you're DPS and can't consistently achieve XXX, then please refrain, because we've found we need at least that to succeed. Feel free to join our guild blah-blah if you'd like suggestions on improving dps for group play!"

So, given you can do all that, I'm not really seeing the problem. Anything more than that seems like ground for abuse, uninvited "auditing" and filtering and generally not good results.

Absinthe

@Jeremy I'll quote an old favorite song of mine if I may....

"Ain't no wrong - ain't no right
Only pleasure and pain"

Jeremy

Absinthe wrote: »

@Jeremy I'll quote an old favorite song of mine if I may....

"Ain't no wrong - ain't no right
Only pleasure and pain"

Interesting quote

But I wasn't arguing against dps meters on moral grounds. It's a stance based on my previous experiences with MMORPGs and the annoying results they produce. So I rather them not become fundamental to the gameplay on this game.

If people want to privately gauge their dps using add-ons I can live with that. But that's where I think it should stay. Because the flashbacks I'm having right now as I type of past games I have played where these types of meters were commonly used is reminding me of why I feel so strongly about this.

Yankee

I like running the current addons to see what my spells hit for and overall DPS.

I will not pug hard content. In a guild run, a person should not want to bring down the run if he or she cannot contribute the DPS on an enrage timer fight. That person would be likely to bow out and/or seek assistance from guildies on increasing DPS.

Because to me that is how it works when you play with friends.

I eventually avoided pugs in WoW partly because of DPS meters. As a healer I would see DPS stay in bad stuff or easily avoidable one shot mechanics without ever moving just to pad those meters. If they died they would say "wtf healer?"

They did this because someone always wanted to scroll Recount in the chat after every trash and boss fight.

Outside of guild progression fights the DPS meter was abused as an epeen thing.

Jeremy

Yankee wrote: »

I like running the current addons to see what my spells hit for and overall DPS.

I will not pug hard content. In a guild run, a person should not want to bring down the run if he or she cannot contribute the DPS on an enrage timer fight. That person would be likely to bow out and/or seek assistance from guildies on increasing DPS.

Because to me that is how it works when you play with friends.

I eventually avoided pugs in WoW partly because of DPS meters. As a healer I would see DPS stay in bad stuff or easily avoidable one shot mechanics without ever moving just to pad those meters. If they died they would say "wtf healer?"

They did this because someone always wanted to scroll Recount in the chat after every trash and boss fight.

Outside of guild progression fights the DPS meter was abused as an epeen thing.

That was exactly my experience also. And it would be a real shame to see this kind of crap move over to ESO.

Absinthe

@Jeremy I use them on a personal basis. I judge only myself. Others may judge me but they can shove their meters deep up their...you get the idea.

So now, perhaps we have an understanding, that DPS meters have a use? Ideally it should only be for personal improvement. However, if you are in a great guild that runs as a specific group and you can get direct feedback as to your own DPS and others can keep tabs on your rotation TO MAKE YOU BETTER is this truly a bad thing?

As a solo player I suppose it is....I only think of one thing....I wish to ensure that I am the best player that I am capable of being. The metrics given in the "DPS meters" provide the feedback that I may not be normally accustomed to. That being anecdotal evidence - ie. "yes i killed it" or "it killed me".

Sorry, my friend, but such anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it.

Cogo

Damage meters has 2 problems.

1. People focus more to get higher damage (ESO do not DPS, its DAMAGE here), then they do on their current fight/surroundings. For some people, they rather execute a wrong tactical attack, simply cause it shows more on the meter.

2. People with damage meters looses or never gains the ability to be aware of your surroundings. Not just the world per say, but whats going on in they group, for quest, dungeon. what you will.

I can not say I know exactly how much damage a person does, even if I know them and we group in an instance. HOWEVER, I can notice that we dont do damage enough and get overrun/flee/killed.

Using the WoW model and yell at the damage dealer who does the least damage simply gets you to the wrong conclution.

Maybe it was because the healer constantly got attacked, the tank wasnt able to taunt/root around the healer so that person died, then the rest followed.

Maybe the damage players should attack the mobs on the healer?

Things like this, you do not even think about if everything is about damage meters. Everyone who played WoW for a while know how much people stare into them, list them in raidchat or guildchat to show off how much damage they did. Its silly. I am more impressed when someone finds a skyshard on their own without addons, then the dork who just know how to end up high on damage list



That being said, everyone in a dungeon/instance/raid group need to be able to perform, but not solo, as a team! And that has NOTHING to do with damage meters.

Jenasy

i vote no DPS meter... Then it becomes about the highest numbers like WoW did not overall skill . I like the personal meters so u can measure ur own effectiveness. DPS is important but not to the point where we have to analyze the highest number is the best. And that's all DPS meters do. True measure of skill is so much more. If everyone understood that, DPS meters wouldn't be such an evil but unfortunately not many ppl do and it becomes a dps race.

Jenasy

BTW there is a personal dps/hps meter you can get.. To measure ur own effectiveness, its per fight and its personal. This is fine to improve ur self if u want. But i will repeat... No recount style of dps meter plz!

HBK

This is basically an unsolvable issue. People keep asking for more challenging encounters yet keep using more and more addons to facilitate such encounters (yes, DPS meters are a tool to help have better DPS as a group which is a way to facilitate encounters, there's no two ways about it).

So devs have two options. Either limit such addons (by limiting the API) in order to maintain some kind of "old school fun" of having to progress "by ourselves", or allow extended addon possibilities for "expert" players willing to theorycraft with minimal effort and minmax *** as they see fit.

Of course, I'd rather have ZOS keep their (relatively) restrictive addon policy.

Which means we'll see group recounts addons within weeks.

Oh, and for people who weren't there, vanilla WoW wasn't all about numbers. It slowly but surely became that way because Blizzard allowed recounts to be used, and as people wouldn't look at anything else, they had to adapt their game to their customers.

Jeremy

Absinthe wrote: »

@Jeremy I use them on a personal basis. I judge only myself. Others may judge me but they can shove their meters deep up their...you get the idea.

So now, perhaps we have an understanding, that DPS meters have a use? Ideally it should only be for personal improvement. However, if you are in a great guild that runs as a specific group and you can get direct feedback as to your own DPS and others can keep tabs on your rotation TO MAKE YOU BETTER is this truly a bad thing?

As a solo player I suppose it is....I only think of one thing....I wish to ensure that I am the best player that I am capable of being. The metrics given in the "DPS meters" provide the feedback that I may not be normally accustomed to. That being anecdotal evidence - ie. "yes i killed it" or "it killed me".

Sorry, my friend, but such anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it.

I wouldn't consider victory in battle as anecdotal evidence. To me that that is a better indicator that you are doing things right than having higher numbers on some meter.

I understand your point though and I said I could live with people just using them for their own personal use. But the minute they start posting them or comparing them - even inside a guild - it starts to annoy me and has all kinds of negative consequences like the ones I pointed out earlier.

Preferably, I would rather them just not exists at all. But as long as people keep them to themselves I can live with it.

HBK

The problem is that such tools are powerful tools (indeed, they wouldn't be used/asked otherwise). They are so powerful that you just can't not use them when other people start using them, as it tend to put you at a severe disadvantage.

And most people don't like disadvantages.

Cogo

HBK wrote: »

The problem is that such tools are powerful tools (indeed, they wouldn't be used/asked otherwise). They are so powerful that you just can't not use them when other people start using them, as it tend to put you at a severe disadvantage.

And most people don't like disadvantages.

Um, you've lost me. So in ESO (not WoW), people who don't use damage meters are at a "severe" disadvantage? Would you mind elaborate on this?

Am I a in severe disadvantage for not using a single addon?

Oh and about people not liking disadvantages. Not true. Some calls it disadvantage. Some calls it challanging.

Jeremy

Cogo wrote: »

HBK wrote: »

The problem is that such tools are powerful tools (indeed, they wouldn't be used/asked otherwise). They are so powerful that you just can't not use them when other people start using them, as it tend to put you at a severe disadvantage.

And most people don't like disadvantages.

Um, you've lost me. So in ESO (not WoW), people who don't use damage meters are at a "severe" disadvantage? Would you mind elaborate on this?

Am I a in severe disadvantage for not using a single addon?

Oh and about people not liking disadvantages. Not true. Some calls it disadvantage. Some calls it challanging.

There were add-ons on WoW that would detect when certain spells were being cast, then automatically target that person and CC them.

That's one reason I don't like add-ons. A lot of times they can give players significant advantages over those who don't use them. And I don't want to feel compelled to go scout online to install all kinds of different programs to my game just so I can feel like I'm on a level playing field with others. Not to mention they can sometimes be risky to download and often conflict with the source program and cause extra bugs.

That's one reason I was disappointed when I learned this game allowed add-ons. Because I would prefer they were just left out of the game all together. But I guess we don't always get what we want.

HBK

DPS meters help you get better at doing damage, which as you might have noticed is something which is always useful one way or another in most video games, and is definitely useful in TESO in many situations.

You may get better "by yourself" than someone using a DPS meter to improve the DPS of its group. It doesn't change the fact that DPS meters helps you significantly in assessing and analyzing your current DPS output in order to improve it. So yes, someone using it has a significant advantage over someone not using it. Whether or not this advantage grants you actual results is irrelevant.

Of course, such statement hardly has any relevance regarding whether or not such advantage should be granted.

But if it is granted to some, it will eventually become required by most "expert" players, which was demonstrated by all the games which allowed it.

So, in the end, whether or not these tools should be required to play the game is to be assessed by the development team when they will decide to allow them.

Hopefully, they will keep their current policy.

Cogo

So without a damage meter that tells me exactly what does what damage, then I don't know where the damage went?

Sure, its easy to read a recount/Skada report, but all you get there are numbers. NOTHING about how you actually killed the boss you where fighting, and unless you have noticed it, ESO have encounters who got selfheals, healing partners etc.

I say again, the SKILL behind "damage" has nothing to do with any meters. It has to do with "raidawareness", knowing whats going on around you and since you test a lot of your skills pretty much all the time, you can tell yourself that skill 1 did more damage then skill 2. Sure, not the number, but unless you never think, you get a pretty good idea.

But fine, we disagree and I can leave it to that. I am just stunned that so many thinks addons are more important then player skill, cooperation, teamwork and knowing what to do what. Hell, even improvising have shows to be a factor in certain events.