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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
This game needs smaller scale pvp like arena or 10v10
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »You can already find plenty of smaller scale (battleground-style) PvP action in Cyrodiil.
Just wanted to address this as it's a bit of a fallacy. You can gank players or attack side objectives until a zerg ends it.
It's completely different than smaller scale organized pvp which is much more demanding on the individual player.
Then, to address that fallacy: zerging doesn't work in the traditional sense. Yes, you will need larger groups to effectively take a keep, but one giant group of people all running to the same place is easily destroyed through smart tactical play. If you have a group of (let's say) 100 players, then that group needs to be split up to be effective at taking the keep. It's not a zerg when groups of 24 people are splitting off to take a side objective or defend a flank.----
Murray?0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No thank you.
I hate confined arena style PvP and much prefer the larger scale PvP this game has adopted. A zillion times more fun than being gang-banged and outnumbered every 2 seconds.Edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2014 12:59PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This is the main concern, an arena will generate demand for class and skill balancing and balancing in the specific 1v1 or 2v2 setting where balance is easy to measure while its hard in Cyrodil or PvE.People against it are probably worried about how arena will affect rest of the game. For arena to work you need a lot of balance. The pvp crowd also tends to be very vocal when they get killed/cant kill class x with class y.
This means in many cases even pve balance will be dictated by a vocal minority that keep getting owned in pvp. So instead of working on real issues the devs end up in a never ending battle to make sure everyone can "win" in pvp. As this is not possible pvp crowd will soon leave for the next big mmo. And so the cycle starts again.
I have nothing against Arena if they do it like GW2 had it. But as it is not in game now I would prefer they work on pve content rather then trying to add some kind of arena that will most likely fail anyway.
This tend to happen in all games who add arenasGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Then, to address that fallacy: zerging doesn't work in the traditional sense. Yes, you will need larger groups to effectively take a keep, but one giant group of people all running to the same place is easily destroyed through smart tactical play. If you have a group of (let's say) 100 players, then that group needs to be split up to be effective at taking the keep. It's not a zerg when groups of 24 people are splitting off to take a side objective or defend a flank.
Oh I agree, people in Cyro don't play optimally, it's hard to organize zergs though.
You missed my point though, I'm saying there is a difference when what you personally do plays a much bigger role in the outcome of the battle. You can't tell people to go pvp on the side in Cyro and say it's the same as balanced, organized pvp. It's not at all. Two balanced teams (not zergs) fighting is a whole other level of competition that is missing currently from ESO.
I hate confined arena style PvP and much prefer the larger scale PvP this game has adopted. A zillion times more fun than being gang-banged and outnumbered every 2 seconds.
I don't think you thought this through. The entire purpose of a controlled pvp environment is to eliminate the lop sided encounters.Edited by Gohlar on April 11, 2014 1:03PM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the main concern, an arena will generate demand for class and skill balancing and balancing in the specific 1v1 or 2v2 setting where balance is easy to measure while its hard in Cyrodil or PvE.
This tend to happen in all games who add arenas
Exactly. More importantly, PvP shouldn't be balanced for 1v1 or 2v2. There should be certain builds that are more effective against other builds (in a very complex version of rock-paper-scissors). Arenas homogenize classes to the point that player choices become obsolete: everyone ends up having the exact same skill loadout, and PvE suffers directly as a consequence.----
Murray?0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »This is the main concern, an arenaExactly. More importantly, PvP shouldn't be balanced for 1v1 or 2v2. There should be certain builds that are more effective against other builds (in a very complex version of rock-paper-scissors). Arenas homogenize classes to the point that player choices become obsolete: everyone ends up having the exact same skill loadout, and PvE suffers directly as a consequence.
Why must everything be a copy of WoW to you guys? This is a completely different game with completely different combat and completely different classes.
It doesn't need to be 2v2 or 1v1. Get outside of the WoW box guys.
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A change of pace would be a great addition to the game. Also, check out the thread on dueling here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/66354/dueling-in-eso/p10
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I have small scale pvp in Cyrodiil daily. And small scale pvp is what killed SWTOR. Thats all they had unless you count the disaster that was ilum, and outlaws den was never used due to small scale pvp arenas. Arenas will kill Cyrodiil0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
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Why must everything be a copy of WoW to you guys? This is a completely different game with completely different combat and completely different classes.
It doesn't need to be 2v2 or 1v1. Get outside of the WoW box guys.
It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil. There is plenty of small-scale PvP already happening there, but if you don't go looking for it, it's hardly the developers' fault.----
Murray?0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Don't follow the zerg, go seek travel routes, gates bridges, smaller objectives, etc if you want smaller scale fighting. Cyrodiil is big enough that there is no problem finding the kind of pvp you want be it zerg, small, or solo.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
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-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.1 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Then, to address that fallacy: zerging doesn't work in the traditional sense. Yes, you will need larger groups to effectively take a keep, but one giant group of people all running to the same place is easily destroyed through smart tactical play. If you have a group of (let's say) 100 players, then that group needs to be split up to be effective at taking the keep. It's not a zerg when groups of 24 people are splitting off to take a side objective or defend a flank.
Oh I agree, people in Cyro don't play optimally, it's hard to organize zergs though.
You missed my point though, I'm saying there is a difference when what you personally do plays a much bigger role in the outcome of the battle. You can't tell people to go pvp on the side in Cyro and say it's the same as balanced, organized pvp. It's not at all. Two balanced teams (not zergs) fighting is a whole other level of competition that is missing currently from ESO.
I hate confined arena style PvP and much prefer the larger scale PvP this game has adopted. A zillion times more fun than being gang-banged and outnumbered every 2 seconds.
I don't think you thought this through. The entire purpose of a controlled pvp environment is to eliminate the lop sided encounters.
In my experience, the best way to avoid it is to make PvP as open as possible.
In all PvP games I have ever played, it was always in the confined areas I got zerged the most. It was on the larger more open battlefields I had the most luck avoiding it.
Confined PvP is terrible in my opinion. The larger the battlefield the better and most fun.
Edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2014 1:15PM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm
See, when you cut out the second half of that post, it almost makes it seem like you're selectively ignoring any information about Cyrodiil already having the small-scale PvP you're looking for.----
Murray?1 -
Spryt✭✭Why must everything be a copy of WoW to you guys? This is a completely different game with completely different combat and completely different classes.
It doesn't need to be 2v2 or 1v1. Get outside of the WoW box guys.
It's not only WoW thing. Arena or Battlegrounds or whatever you want to call them work pretty much the same in all games. Why? It's beacuse that is what most players want. Simple as that.
In small scale 1v1 or 10v10 it will somehow always end up being 1v1 sometimes. And when that happens the loosing side will always blame the game and balance. Nobody wants to think they need to l2p
If it'ts not like Battleground/Areana model then what kind of pvp do you want?
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Gohlar✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm
See, when you cut out the second half of that post, it almost makes it seem like you're selectively ignoring any information about Cyrodiil already having the small-scale PvP you're looking for.
It's about getting together with friends and getting a fair fight against another skilled team.
This level of competition is simply not something you even contemplate so don't worry about it. Zerg pvp is good and it should exist, but offering access to some skill based pvp would be nice as well. Variety is good.
Telling an organized group to go pvp on the side is silly. It would be like telling a group in pve who wanted to raid to go kill monsters in the world. It's not the same at all.Edited by Gohlar on April 11, 2014 1:21PM0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm
See, when you cut out the second half of that post, it almost makes it seem like you're selectively ignoring any information about Cyrodiil already having the small-scale PvP you're looking for.
Gohlar ignoring answers that don't suit his thesis?? You must be kidding0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm
See, when you cut out the second half of that post, it almost makes it seem like you're selectively ignoring any information about Cyrodiil already having the small-scale PvP you're looking for.
Gohlar ignoring answers that don't suit his thesis?? You must be kidding
Already addressed. Too quick on the trigger with your trolling, but I reported it. Please stay on topic.Edited by Gohlar on April 11, 2014 1:24PM1 -
The game is brand new but is already developing its own group of small scale pvp / arena. This same set up of a large open pvp world was developed in DAoC and had everything you could ever want in pvp.
Just because you lack the ability to go out and find the pvp doesn't mean its not there... There are already guilds organizing duel circles for the 1v1 and 2v2 on the edge of cyrodiil.. maybe start looking for the guilds hosting and doing those or just find the right campaign and go join the circle.... they are great fun but beware. you will get destroyed if you try to gank out of turn.
for 4v4 and other small group pvp there are groups already doing that as well. they hit the supply lines and the groups going to join the zerg as well as other groups. Also the "8man" crowd similar to what dark age had is already alive and steadily forming. which means given time they will have set areas they clash in or are more likely to be found in.
The game is brand new and the various pvp communities are barely starting to rally and form / develop. The problem is not that the game doesn't have the "insta queue" arena from wow or bg's but that you don't want to let the game develop and be a part of the community that's developing but would rather have these communities be given to you which leads to a shallow echo of what the pvp community could be and is already starting to form.
The reason so many of us loved daoc was not because it wasn't without its flaws. yes that game had many. but was because balance was developed around the war not a meta game (not balanced for 1v1 or arena), the community was a real community, and we were given open cart to run in pvp how we wanted without the community being segregated. Hell on classic servers you knew who was who... I knew in the war that HellVamp and his group called hells minions would be out defending the hib frontier to the extreme... I remember his Call To Arms the minute DC (one of the most important keeps for us hibs) was under siege and dropping all pve to rush out to the keep to prevent our relic (scroll) from being taken. I knew most of the people involved in duel circles on the little island between the continents and destroying any small group that tried to stop us. I remember 8mans and small zerg wars between keeps.
All this is starting to develop in this game. the addition of instance and forced segregation will just destroy the communities that are already starting to develop and not replace them with any real tangible benefit outside of a meta game, that in ever game that it has been put in, takes over as far as balancing and patching. Its not that the population of world pvp will tank its that the balance of world abilities will get ganked or nerfed for a meta game that will develop on its own and not affect the world if ZOS doesn't include them but instead lets the community develop them on their own.0 -
ottohiSoul ShrivenHey, Pact on Dawnbreaker here. I'd love something where it's not 1 vs 100 so I could have some fun in PvP.0
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spawn10459✭✭✭Zenimax's vision of PVP is the 'real deal', large-scale battles rather than artifical 'arenas' or zone maps that are dominated by one side or the other.
Yes, it may need some PC power but it's 'epic' PVP rather than small-scale skirmishes that most other games' PVP consists of.
hahahah the servers are so unbalanced right now its not even funny. one server is dominated by one faction already.
Smaller scale PVP is 100% needed and with out it, people will leave the game.
Look at GW2 same PVP system. yet hardly any one PVP's in that game. there is 0 reward in that game and 0 reward in this gameEdited by spawn10459 on April 11, 2014 1:27PM0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »It would need to be 2v2 or 1v1 to be smaller than what's already available in Cyrodiil.
/facepalm
See, when you cut out the second half of that post, it almost makes it seem like you're selectively ignoring any information about Cyrodiil already having the small-scale PvP you're looking for.
Gohlar ignoring answers that don't suit his thesis?? You must be kidding
Already addressed. Too quick on the trigger with your trolling, but I reported it. Please stay on topic.
Trolling? Ah the kettle....0 -
Rhime✭✭This game needs smaller scale bgs. I finally reached level 10 (with the small amount of time I get to play on the game) and thought I would play some pvp.
When I got to cryodil I didn't have a clue what was happening. My Fps dropped below 25 Fps with loads of people on screen. and it was just all a mess.
What is everyone else's view on this? Do you think this game would be better with smaller pvp?
These large scale battles just don't work well on people pcs who can't handle it. I get 50+Fps in open world but come to cryodil it drops loads when alot of action is happening.
I know I could upgrade my graphics but the pc I'm using is brand new.
Disagree...this doesn't need any arena crap. Get out there and defend the realm(and eat your arrows like everyone else..:)).0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭spawn10459 wrote: »Zenimax's vision of PVP is the 'real deal', large-scale battles rather than artifical 'arenas' or zone maps that are dominated by one side or the other.
Yes, it may need some PC power but it's 'epic' PVP rather than small-scale skirmishes that most other games' PVP consists of.
hahahah the servers are so unbalanced right now its not even funny. one server is dominated by one faction already.
Smaller scale PVP is 100% needed and with out it, people will leave the game.
Agreed. The numbers game will wear thin very quickly. I wonder if the people defending it even spend much time there.Trolling? Ah the kettle....
The good old "anyone who disagrees is trolling" angle. Nice. Even if you disagree it's not trolling, but now you're letting the argument get you all upset and you aren't even talking about the game anymore. Quit it.Edited by Gohlar on April 11, 2014 1:32PM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
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Telling an organized group to go pvp on the side is silly. It would be like telling a group in pve who wanted to raid to go kill monsters in the world. It's not the same at all.
Then your campaign isn't very good. My home campaign has organized raiding groups making surgical strikes at very specific areas. We are never in one giant zerg. Ever.----
Murray?0 -
spawn10459✭✭✭[/quote]
Agreed. The numbers game will wear thin very quickly. I wonder if the people defending it even spend much time there.
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Normaly there just Fan boys defending this to there death with out actually being apart of it.
Arena is not needed but small scale PVP 100% is needed. Right now there is 0 Reason to PVP. you cant level in there, your typical out numbered so you cant take any forts, you cant stop one faction from steam rolling the other so its a waste of time.1 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭spawn10459 wrote: »Normaly there just Fan boys defending this to there death with out actually being apart of it.
This is the impression I am getting as well.Arena is not needed but small scale PVP 100% is needed. Right now there is 0 Reason to PVP. you cant level in there, your typical out numbered so you cant take any forts, you cant stop one faction from steam rolling the other so its a waste of time.
And most importantly, how about some basic, balanced competition? It has an entirely different feel than gank parties. For starters, the enemy is always an even match in terms of numbers. That's a huge benefit.
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Zerl✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »You can already find plenty of smaller scale (battleground-style) PvP action in Cyrodiil.
Just wanted to address this as it's a bit of a fallacy. You can gank players or attack side objectives until a zerg ends it.
It's completely different than smaller scale organized pvp which is much more demanding on the individual player.
It's also a fallacy to assume that all large scale PvP is easier on the individual player.
As you like to make such wonderful well thought out claims, here's a video on how to make chocolate cake.
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